I forgot ..I don´t golf I´m a rustic guy so no minus ..but I like fishing....

Well your stuffed here in DXB, the off shore Palms/World have pretty much killed off the once plentiful sealife.

What, you must be kidding. Plenty of sharks in this part of the World !

furbie,
even gallarate is better than dubai, you will see.

Not in DXB there ain't. The odd Whale shark mate, but thats about it. The Gulf waters are generally too warm for sharks, especially in summer. You can see them over in Fujeirah, Indian Ocean side of the UAE.

EGGW

Luton boy

I wasn't referring to the fishy sort, more the ones on dry land, selling houses, investment packages for expats, car sales...............those sort of sharks! Get my drift?:cool:

Furby,

I see youve decided to join us and swell the ranks,based on Rev Dr D and BYMONEK ,Im so disappointed you didnt give the rest of us any credit for your monumental decision.

So much so,Im going to sulk in the pub its 0500 and Ive just done yet another night sim duty,but like so many I love it,were very lucky to be here as highly valued pilots,like many others I enjoy starting my duty at 10pm at night.

By the way,unlike my colleagues Im not lazy,and I got 10 days off this month.Did I mention we are really well paid?

Welcome to the dream.

Ah,the pub awaits even at this time of the day.

QB:ok:

Hello Furb,

I do not know what a rustic guy is but I will take your word for it.... On the issue of joining Ek good luck to you.....

I have been here some time now, and I can tell you that things are not what they seem to be from the out side. Think back to when you joined your present employer and how happy you were. I am sure people then told you the bad points, but you would not listen because you were new and naive.... Now you leave them because you have had enough....

Think about the guy who is going to replace you, does he believe that the place your are leaving is bad? If he did he would not be joing your outfit....

We tend to see what we want to see. We tend to ignore the issues and views that do not fall in to our pre-conceived reality.

People in EK do not leave for various reasons, although that does not mean that they like staying here either.

Would your employer take you back once you have left? Would you be able to go back in to seniority or to your old position with the salary you had? Would you be able to find another job in your contry and in the region you want to live easily, or would you have to commute? Would you be able to easily justify the cost of moving your family out of DXB? pay all the loans on cars etc, and then afford the loans on new cars houses etc. Would you be able to afford the houses if you have left the property lader and they have sky rocketed since?

It is easier to complain than leaving because it does not cost as much, and it does not require as much effort, but that does not mean that people do not leave or that they complain just to complain....

We have had around 70 resignations in the last two years, so many actualy that our managers have taken away the feature from the crew portal and we can no longer see who is leaving. This is a typical example of fixing things in DXB and in EK. Hide the truth-problem solved....

EK is not an achievement, although you may feel it is because recruitment makes you believe that. It is part of the catch to get you to join, you feel special, you feel you have achieved something, therefore you must join....

It is just a job like any other, and once you have done it just like you have in your present employer you realise that it should be a two way relationship. Give expertise, and get money and quality of life.

At present we tend to be giving and not receiving. You might say that it is the same where you are, but I would say that it is not... you are home and have the comfort of your friends and family. This is not our country, we are here until we move on either back home, or to greener pastures...

Take a vacation if you need a brake, but do not come here believing that things will be better. It is a different outfit, with similar problems to yours. It used to be great, it has been much more fun than recently, and the money used to go a long way. Now it is not worth coming here in my view.... I would never join EK again if I knew then what I know now, but then it was a different company.....

"Come and Discover until you also find the best...."
:D :D :D :D

Been here for more than two years now.
It's simply not worth it - over.

'The Honeymooners' - Starring Capt Optimistic and First Officer Quick Command. An everyday story of life in Dubai.

I was delighted when I got my job at EK. I recommended it to all my mates - some came and some even still speak to me. At about 2 years I started to see the sand in between the buildings when I got stuck in a traffic jam on the SZR. I am still here because I can't be asked to move yet. But Rev D has it spot on, my mate was the most positive guy in the airline until he got to 2 years and then the gold started to flake off his idol as all the DECs continued and the new transition upgrade policy was announced. Then he watched as his fellow joiners on the 777 started their upgrades and the company thought he might be in line 18 months or so later on the Bus.

Although I don't live in Dubai or work at EK, I have seen many an expat, from all over the world, come and go from the sand pit around the gulf. In some ways they are all the same.

Unfortunately too many with an attitude like yourself. And they are the ones destined for the biggest fall/shock once they actually see what its really like.

What everyone here is telling you is true. It's up to you whether you want to believe in the advice you asked for or not.

Good luck and don't say you haven't been warned.

EK OR NOT EK THIS IS THE PROBLEM
 

HI, YOU'RE THINKING IN A VERY CONVENTIONAL WAY AND A LOT OF THE GUYS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO REPLY IN AS HONEST (FROM WHAT I HAVE READ) A WAY AS POSSIBLE.

YOU MAY BE WISHING FOR A ROSTER THAT GETS YOU OUT OF DUBAI - HAVE YOU GIVEN THAT ANY THOUGHT. YOU MIGHT DISLIKE THIS ISLAND OF HYPOCRISY SO MUCH. IF YOU'RE MARRIED AND YOUR WIFE IS MISERABLE, HOW WILL YOU COPE WITH THAT WHEN YOU GET TO GO TO EUROPE OR AUSTRALIA AND SHE DOESN'T. IF LIFE FOR YOU BEGINS AND ENDS IN THE COCKPIT OF A BIG AEROPLANE THEN COME HERE, YOU DESERVE IT.

HOW SECURE WILL YOU FEEL WHEN AS AN F/O YOU WILL BE AT MANAGEMENT'S BEHEST FOR AS MANY YEARS AS IT TAKES TO GET A COMMAND INTERVIEW (A330'S RETIREMENT BEGINS THIS YEAR-DO YOUR SUM). HOW WILL YOU COPE IF YOU DON'T GET PAST THE PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION, WHICH YOU THOUGHT YOU HAD PASSED WHEN YOU GOT HIRED, FOR THAT COMMAND - SO YOU DON'T EVEN MAKE IT TO THE INTERVIEW. HAVE THEY TOLD YOU THAT EVERY PROMOTION REQUIRES YOU PASSING A PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION? HAVE THEY TOLD YOU HOW MANY COMMAND CANDIDATES HAVE FAILED. IF YOU MEET SOME OF THEM YOU WILL WONDER WHY BECAUSE WHEN I DID THEY SEEMED QUITE SANE TO ME.

HAVE YOU EVER FLOWN BACK TO BACK TRIPS THAT HAD YOU FLYING IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS FROM YOUR HOME BASE AND WHICH COVERED QUITE A NUMBER OF TIME ZONES? WHEN YOU ARE SO TIRED THAT YOU FEEL YOU SHOULDN'T BE AT WORK BUT GO ANYWAY - AND IF SOMETHING HAPPENS, THE COMPANY WILL HIDE BEHIND THE FOM, WHICH STATES CLEARLY THAT YOU SHOULDN'T SHOW UP FOR WORK TIRED.

YOU ARE ENTRUSTED WITH QUITE A LUMP OF RESPONSIBILITY IN THIS JOB BUT AT EK YOU WILL RECEIVE MINIMUM AMOUNT OF AUTHORITY AND NO LOYALTY. YOU ARE DISPATCHED YET YOUR DISPATCHER ISN'T WORTH THE SEAT HE SITS ON. IF YOU TRY TO HELP YOU CAN EXPECT SHORT SHRIFT ESPECIALLY IF DEALING WITH SOME OF THE EGOES WHO OCCUPY THE SMNC POSITIONS (SENIOUR MANAGER NETWORK CONTROL).

THESE MAY NOT EQUATE TO MUCH FOR YOU IF YOU'RE IN LOVE WITH YOUR BIG SHINEY JET BUT WHEN YOU MESS UP DUE TO ALL OF THE ABOVE, YOU WILL STAND VERY ALONE. BROADEN YOUR FOCUS AND DON'T GET SUCKED INTO THE WANABEE FRAME OF MIND.

Is EK a psychopatic corporation or not science has the answer.
 

From CR-Psychopaths to Responsible
Corporations: Waking up the Inner
Sleeping Beauty of Companies

Tarja Ketola*
Department of Management, TurkuSchool of Economics, Finland
ABSTRACT

Many large companies seem to fulfil the psychiatric criteria for psychopaths in their corporate responsibility (CR) practices. Are they really incurable psychopaths, or is it possible that they could be counselled into accepting their responsibilities?

CR studies have so far paid little attention to the variations in the CR emphases between different companies. This article, based on a conference paper (Ketola, 2005b), presents a CR emphasis model, pinpointing eight different approaches to corporate responsibility. Some companies do not voluntarily take any responsibilities.

Companies acting like psychopaths need a Prince of Virtues to kiss awake their
inner Sleeping Beauty from its 100-year irresponsibility sleep. All companies could take advantage of virtue ethics, which present the values shared by all humans, and hence exemplify the natural law (lex naturae). Counselling top managers and key individuals on their personal and professional values enables all personnel to integrate virtues into the company’s CR practices. Copyright © 2006 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd and ERP Environment.

Introduction

IN AN AMERICAN TV DOCUMENTARY, TARGETING THE MAJORS (FINNISH TV2, 2 JANUARY 2005),
major companies were subjected to a personality test by measuring their actions in the areas of economic, social and ecological responsibilities. The actions taken by those companies indicated that they were psychopaths as they fulfilled all the criteria of psychopathy. I have adopted this idea, and compare in Table 1 the personal characteristics of psychopaths with typical contemporary organizational behaviour.

Naturally, the documentary presented the worst deeds done by companies; therefore, the psychopathic characteristics do not represent their whole personality, which also incorporates good deeds. However, a responsible company does not do good deeds with one hand and evil deeds with the other hand, but tries to do good with both hands. Psychopathic characteristics should be eliminated from a company in order that it can really be a responsible company and say so.

The psychopathic characteristics of companies are often established practices developed over the years or decades. They have started from an individual’s or individual company’s evil deed that has remained unpunished, and have consequently spread and become a common practice within a company and among companies, a line of business and the whole business community. New psychopathic corporate characteristics are developing all the time – every time a company gets off scot-free. It is the responsibility of companies themselves, business communities, business environments and society at large to see to that no-one’s irresponsible deeds remain unpunished. Apart from discipline, positive incentives are needed to motivate companies away from psychopathic behaviour. First they need to become aware of their current position in the CR emphasis map, in order that appropriate action can be taken.

A Hypothetical Corporate Responsibility Emphasis Model
Corporate responsibility research has made major advances in mapping the area both in theory and practice
However, CR studies have so far paid little attention to the variations in the CR emphases between different companies. Companies have remarkably varied approaches to responsibility. Even within a single line of business many different attitudes can be found. For example, of the oil companies the Finnish Neste Oil believes that their ‘profit cake’ can be cut between economic, social and ecological responsibilities, while the American ExxonMobil sees responsibility as a zero sum game in which the economic responsibilities
must win (Ketola, 2005a). The British BP and the British–Dutch Shell tend to lobby compromises
between different stakeholders so that the claimants of social and ecological responsibilities would also be satisfied with what they benefit from the oil companies’ profits (Ketola, 2005a; O’Rourke, 2004;

CR-Psychopaths
The corporate responsibility emphases of different companies can be analysed with the assistance of
a hypothetical corporate responsibility model illustrated in Figure 1. The model takes account of all the combinations of corporate economic, social and ecological responsibilities. Thus an individual responsibility profile can be drawn for each company.
Some of these concepts have already been used by other researchers. O’Riordan (1981) made a division between technocentric and ecocentric sustainable development and Pearce (1991), Purser et al.
(1995), Shrivastava (1995) and Iyer (1999) between anthropocentric and ecocentric sustainable development.
However, their anthropocentrism is in fact a rather inhuman, calculative technocentric
approach for the rich and mighty who can afford to solve problems with technological innovations.
Chambers (1987), on the other hand, introduced a genuinely anthropocentric approach, sustainable
livelihoods, in which poor people are paid special attention to. Our Common Future (WCED, 1987) is a
compromise between technocentric, anthropocentric and ecocentric approaches.
Colby (1990) distinguished five categories along the line of anthropo-, eco- and biocentric sustainable
development. As with Pearce, Colby’s anthropocentric alternative is actually technocentric, which makes
his five categories very strong technocentrism, strong technocentrism, modified technocentrism,
ecocentrism and biocentrism – illustrating the society’s firm, even desperate, belief in technological.......

Honest advice
 

Furbpilot: I think you're probably a little overwhelmed with all the advice coming at you over this forum. You've made up your mind and really want someone to back it up. Its not going to happen, so choose the middle road.
If it's not too late, sit down with your present employer and explain your position before you resign. Tell him that you're just not sure, but that you feel compelled to try a move to EK. If he's a little older and been in the game for a while, he'll understand. Ask him if you can come back if it all turns to custard. It will help him too, because you'll send a clear message to anyone else at the company entertaining the same notion.
When you get here and you get the keys to temporary accommodation which is an apartment in the middle of the business district with no clear idea when you and your family can move, you have a back door.
When you draw the short straw and get paired up with one of the many instructors who treats you like a child, you have a back door.
When you draw the shortest straw of all, and do your final check with our favourite instructor who quizzes you for 4 hours on.......your politics, your President/Prime Minister and your sexual persuasion and then finally fails you anyway for not starting your stopwatch on push-back, you have a back door.
When you lodge a complaint about this treatment and the company grounds YOU for 3 months and subjects you to non-stop psychometric evaluation and the culprit walks free, you have a back door.
It's OK to make a well intentioned mistake, and its the mark of an intelligent man to admit it and turn back down the road you've just travelled. Do everything you can to keep the door open, Furbpilot, and an honest "Good luck".

SM.

A philosophical view
 

http://www.nostradamusonline.com/sample_chapter.php

Quotes

In May 2004, members of the Italian National Library in Rome made an amazing discovery. Buried in their archives was an unknown manuscript by the famed prophet Michel Notredame, or Nostradamus (1503-1566). This manuscript was handed down to the prophet's son and later donated by him to Pope Urban VIII. It did not surface again until now, almost four hundred years later.



Third world country leader creates strife
(Century III, Quatrain 60)
A "young dark man" will arise as a leader in a Third World country; his main goal is to unite the other Third World countries to do battle with the superpowers. The area of conflict will be in Eastern Europe and the Middle East, particularly around he Adriatic and the Caspian seas and the eastern Mediterranean. No definite winner will emerge but the strife will help set the stage for the Antichrist. Some prophecies in the Bible refer to events in this region

(Century II, Quatrains 3 and 4)
During continuing unrest in the Middle East, one of the leaders will be able to get a hold of an nuclear bomb. He will go to the greatest lengths over the smallest things and will not hesitate to use the weapon because his obsessions with deadly warfare. The people he is warring against retaliate with a nuclear weapon. The country has a coast on the Mediterranean.

Use of the words 'Nuclear Bomb' in a 600 year old document..I don't think so

In some translations it says "weopon of mass destruction".
This definition may contain a wide range of weapons. For some it is a nuclear bomb in the hands of middle eastern leaders, for others it's a simple rifle in the hands of western vice presidents.
china

Mass Destruction
 

My bets on the 4 Wheel Drives with the Blacked Out Windows which Tail gate you on along the main drag in Dubai

Thanks Harry the Cod. I did join Nad Al Sheba 2 years ago.
Keep eating the sour grapes.

Beamarias

So you've been here 18 months and a member of Nads 2 years. Seems you make it a habit getting in early before others. Why were you complaining then if you had a place? Anyway, thanks for the dietry advice but as a relatively senior trainer on the 330/340 I can at least afford the sweeter variety!:ok:

Harry

Hi dears

No.. my happyness doesn't start in the cockpit of a shiny big jet. Actually I don't give a !!!! about how shiny or big it' s my work place...may be more on its airworthyness. I' m single so no wife waiting for me.. I see most of you think that I'm childish guy that wants to play with the big toy.Actually a I know a lot of people like this and probably this is the problem with this job. But is not my case. Mine is the case of a 40 years old F/O that five years ago joined a company ruled by a bunch of south american style military pilots yes men , in which everithing is done my country style. Pathetic training,bad rostering continuos call in days off to cover systemic lack of crew, bad salary, total lack of organization at all levels, and most of all a very bad attitude.If you don't join this mafia, forget your career. I fought my personal war knowing that I couldn't win but still I don't regret it cause at least I like what I see in the mirror in the morning.
Most of you guys probably come from aviation civilized country I don't. The only place you can do this job in this country is the flag carrier the rest is real !!!! . Shall I go to Rayanar? No thanks F**K Rayanair !!!
Shall I join some charter operator ?
No thanks I don't want to go to Cuba and come back immediately in must go!!!
Shall I stay where I'm? No thanks I don't want to be a bus driver flying six legs a day in the same four same destination for the rest of my working life.
If I'll come Dubai I know I will not be flying in my country anymore and actually I don't give much more then a s**t about broken bridges. I will have to wait for my upgrade? Still I will make more money there as an F/O then where I'm now as CPT .
And if I will not be happy I will quit and as I did before and do something else but in the mean time I will do something I never did see people I never saw and visit places I'm never been ,not even 24 hours.
So now somebody as to tell me something more ? And by the way I'm still waiting for that roster....

welcome on board furbpilot, full steam ahead, no "ice burgs " here.........

""..........bad rostering continuos call in days off to cover systemic lack of crew, bad salary, total lack of organization.....""

Hmmm - does this ring a bell anyone ?

Sounds just like the company you are about to join Furb.

Keep recovering :}

furb

You'll fit in fine hear. Your current level of English and grammar is on a par with our latest joiners.:uhoh:

Harry

Oxford Dictionary: Hear..... to perceive sound with the ear.

Good to know that EK's senior 330/340 trainers have a sense of humour.

Plovdiv

Thanks. Glad to sea subtlety not lost on some !;)

Harry

It' not up to me to judge my professionality nor I want to speak about my level of experience but for sure I speak more the one language ..amigo.
Salam

and your point is?

His point seems to be that it's okay to have basic English because he can speak several others.
Well, my friend, I can assure you that we've had several guys in the last year, mainly from South America, who's command of English has been poor and as a result have been given 'extra' English lessons. This isn't for show, it's to prevent accidents occuring through errors in communications. It doesn't matter how good a poler you are. The sooner you realise that the better!

Harry

I tink you are goig out of teme. Tis post startid with simpl question.. Ow is realli laife in Dubai woking for Emirates eirlines?
Nau sims like I'm havin an english test. I 'm been instructing in da states for some iears ( I old FAA CPL CFI CFII MEI ) in the Ouston aria and I flu with collig from all over in may career. Never any problema wit communicazion... heaven if I come from Kazakhistan....Grade?
Dasvidanja.

furb....

I believe you need an ATP to get into this circus...... english not really a problem, nobody here speaks good english anyway...

furb..
don't worry..in Dubai you don't need to know many words of English..Just remember to say "AS WELL" every time you open your mouth and you'll be fine..;)

Thanks for your suggestion guys.
I was just joking..I'm not from Kazhakistan....near.
I do hold an ATPL ( how the hell would I have passed the interview otherwise ...? )

As well.....

So long

Hi furb, this is what I think of you and your future.

I think you are a guy who has passed the interview and is now in a fantasy about how good your job will be when you reach EK. I don't believe there was ever any question on whether or not you will come here. Now here you sit waiting for that glorious day when you start training at EK, so you kill some time on this forum asking "questions" which only serve to enhance the fantasy.

I'm all for dreaming, we all do it, but make no mistake it is a dream. Just picture your self dreaming some more for that left seat for at least 3 years more likely 5 and six months before your slot comes up the company decides it needs 90 or so DECS right away. They will get them and you will realise that you are going to have to wait another 2 years for your command. Now I'm not saying that particular thing will happen but it is stuff like that which occurs here on a regular basis. Something like it WILL happen to you unless you are very lucky.

So if you want to come for a good shafting by all means do, but as so many others have said to you don't say we didn't warn you.

Also, it not such a bad thing talking with someone who is looking forward to coming, but when you and I are paired together on a night trip to exotic Hyderabad try to keep your b!tching and moaning to a minimum cause I'll be the one trying to get some Controlled rest.

7

So what would you say are the 3 biggest problems at EK. Try to be honest, there seems to be a lot of unhappy people there. Is the pay below par? Pissed off because of DEC's, can see your point on that one (but it happens). Is Dubai a bad place to live and bring a family up? Are they really that unprofessional at EK? Working to much a problem and bad lay overs. It seem's like a really good deal if your given the chance to be accepted at EK. Tax free, houseing, interst free loan... what am I missing? Can some one enlighten me a little more about EK?

I'll I can say to you now Furb, is bring plenty of high quality vaseline for the certain shafting you'll enjoy after you arrive.

Regarding the English language, don't worry, over the last 2 years, management has shown a decided lack of effective communication anyway, so it won't be an issue for you.

Your "contract" is not worth the paper it's printed on and will be altered at the whim of management. They don't seem to understand the most basic western tenet that a contract is not a one sided document, but an agreement that requires both parties accord for any changes.

This was a GREAT company up to about the early 2000's - but from the arrival of CKN, it's been a slippery ride downhill at an ever increasing velocity, now at the very nadir of it's existence. :mad: :mad:

Look at the lack of any worthwhile awards EK has received recently. We used to be the absolute best and took great pride in our job. It is also a valid question to ask whether this company is now one of the so called "3rd world" carriers. This is the company you will be joining Furb.

As Airbus757 has said, please don't start bitching and moaning on an all night epic when you realise the mistake you have made.

Keep discovering and enjoy your "career" at Emirates.

Uncle Buzz,

I will try to be as honest as I can, although I do not like the place so I see things half empty.
There is no such thing as tax free as there is no Santa Clause. Things in Dubai cost as much, if not more in some cases, as they cost in Europe. There is no Value Added Tax, but the price tag is the same. The exception to that will be petrol and groceries, although with the recent increase in prices in Super Markets we are not far behind them.... Going out for meals is on par with Europe and for sure more than North America...
Quality of life has dropped both because of extra cost, and because of constant construction and traffic jams. There are too many cars and not enough roads in Dubai and shall be the case for the forseable future. The beaches have been eroded, it becomes more and more difficult to find open space to enjoy the outdoors by the sea. You can of course go to beach clubs and hotels and swimming pools, but it is way too artificial for a constant day in and day out.....
Emirates has changed and is changing all the time, but unfortunately towards the worst. The UAE in general does not have laws that if broken results in any form of meaningful punishment to the offenders. It is the same in EK as we brake every rule, and every law and every regulation we have internaly and in the country, because even when we do get caught, the regulator being the owner does not punish us, or reprimand us (Verbal only). We fly more than the 900 hours per year regulation, and it does not matter, we fly more than the 18 hours maximum duty period (4 pilots) and it does not matter, we roster 2 pilots knowlingly that they will exceed they allowed duty period and it does not matter. If you refuse to brake, the law, or to bend it you are called in to the office and are reprimanded.
We fly mostly night flights, and since we fly a lot it is very strenuous and fatiguing for you. The only good thing about EK on this subject is that you are allowed to sleep on the flight deck (Controled Rest)
You are not treated nicely within the company by any one except Flight Operations. Staff travel is a huge problem. (You are not guaranteed a seat home even on your once a year confirmed annual leave ticket-I was offloaded not too long ago). You are considered slave labour once you join.
The airplanes are nice though, the marketing is great, and the PR department is second to none. EK is great when seen from the outside. It is not bad if you are unemployed, or if you want to come and get some experience and move on. It is not bad if you are coming from a small locost outfit, and it is not bad if you come from a country with security issues. It is a huge mistake to leave a company and a country with laws rules and regulations and join EK thinking that it is going to be similar. It is like going to Disney World seeing the Carabian, Latin America, and Europe and thinking that you have seen those countries..... At least in DW the employees are nice to you...

Perception is reality, individual reality that is.

And then it goes somehow like this

• Fantasy
• Idealisation
• Disappointment
• Anger

EK won a lot of awards at a time they were qualified as not meeting the minimum safety standards.

Power creates reality, you have only one life.....do not waist it

Why is it that the requirements for an FO with EK are so high? 4000hrs TT seems a lot compared with other airlines operating widebodies. Are EK getting enough suitably qualified applicants or will the requirements be lowered in the near future?
Cheers

aceairman
 

Hey guys, I'm really keen on EK but wonder about the reality vas a vis life in Dubai, and also the seemingly high resignation rate lately-presumably amongst the married crews (of which a lot has been said here). I believe their interviews are a tough call, so anyone know whether there's any chance of a second shot if the first interview is kinda dunked?? Also, how fast is a command upgrade really possible from joining? There seem to be quite a few disgruntled souls with broken promises on this issue! Appreciate some info on this. Cheers!