Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

WHERE ARE THE JOURNO'S NOW?

A number of EK pilots are currently on "extra days off" because they have exceeded the max flying hours allowed in a calendar year.

It is no secret that Emirates has been running the pilot poole on the very lean side for quite some time and that crew scheduling are forced to regularly call pilots on off days to fly planes that would otherwise be parked. The airline has relied, no, expected "good will" from the pilots to work on their off days and yet offer no good will in return. Rosters are a shambles and EVERY PILOT is planned to work beyond the standard productive level into overtime EVERY MONTH.

The result is a bunch of fatigued pilots flying heavy equipment on 14h40min ultra long haul routes to places like New York, spending 24 hours on the ground, then compounding their fatigue by operating the ultra long haul return flight to Dubai.....
Or, pilots operating the likes of 11 hour flights from Seoul to Dubai - 2 crew in the middle of the night.

Concerns have been raised at various levels that we ARE heading for a disaster, but arrogance and greed turn a blind eye.

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

Not just NY and Seoul,

back to back flights throughout the night, followed by SIN-MEL, SIN-BNE AKL, back to London a few days later... 80-90 hr block months...delays, extended duty times, no leave available. The problem is affecting all fleets, Bs & As.

Some go sick, others mask the true extent of the problem by working on their days off.

EK is in crisis and all you can hear is silence.

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

10 days of leave in one month and still 77 hours blocktime, of course no overtime thanks to TCAS

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

That is the most accurate statement of fact regarding Flight Operations that I have ever read on this site. Management, wake up!

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

"Tick Tock" Only a matter of time until something gives!!

It's not to say that we did not raise these problems with management before! They somehow seem to think that it will just get better if we ignore them long enough, they might disappear!!

Well gents, let us all take care out there! And bottom line is, if you are not up to it? Dont do it! Because no one will come to your rescue if it all turns ugly!!

As always,

Check your Six.:eek:

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

Oh my gosh!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
All these 'fatigued' pilots after 11 hour flights.
Maybe we should take up a collection here for a paper bag full of donuts for all these guys, so the can keep their sugar level up, and not fall asleep....:p

PS:
If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

I am afraid 411A keeps posting because he loves to get kneejerk responses. In life he could likely be a reasonable bloke, just here he is something else. So skip his post and move on. Time for a nap....

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

So let me get this right, The salary is so far below market rate it is shameful, contracts are being abused, Safety is compromised through high fatigue levels and under staffed/funded training dept. First Officer's carreers stagnated through insensitive policy making and DEC's. Line pilots reaching max Flight Duty time and earning less than the coveted DEC's.

Response from pilot workforce.

Idiots still agree to take up and continu in training positions. My God guys! Trainers are the guardians of safety in an airline have the professionalism to resign until this bun fight is sorted out. You owe it to your line collegues. Without you the company are forced to negotiate.

Line Captains flying on days off. Those that do are weak moneygrabbing lillylivers who do not deserve the rank of Captain. Have the cajonas that you rank represents and learn to piss in the long grass like the big dogs. Only then will things improve.

FO's your @bond@ cannot be enforced since the very spirit of your contract with EK has been compromised by frequent adjustments to COS. Do yourself a favour and resign. There are loads of jobs out there you dont have to take this crap. You are professionals show some self respect and vote. Only then will things change.

As long as flights are crewed you are justifying managements cost cutting policies and inviting even less respect.

Working on days off under these circumstances is indefensible those that do are contemptable and should be treated as such.

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

SY your vitriol is misplaced squire. If things were so bad then all that you have mentioned would have materialised. But it hasn’t has it. I wonder why? Perhaps when all the hot air has been expressed and lucidity returns then reality dawns together with the realisation that this aint so bad after all. No, not the best but certainly not the worst job.
GAL

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

Waldo aka various:

Back in the office after an extended Xmas break, what would you know about fatigue?

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

Waldorfin might have missed it - whilst being on leave between the years, whlist we've been working our A**es off ...
as he WRONGLY states:

"If things were so bad then all that you have mentioned would have materialised. But it hasn’t has it. I wonder why?"

.... so, what about the numerous cancelled EK-Flights over X-mas, due to massive shortness of Crews then? Well, that REALLY costs EK money to extremly poor managements decisions i guess :*

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

Waldo,

EK crews are amoungst the best that I have worked with Squire. Emirates has managed, in the past, to attract pilots of a very high calibre. It goes against the grain of any professional to not set the very highest of standards. That is why the aforementioned action has not yet materialised.

Your sychophantic management, like you, will rest on there laurals until the critical point is exceeded and the whole thing falls apart, only then will something be done. Your acceptance of mediocraty is endemic in management. This may not be the best but it certainly is not the worst you say. There was a time when I was proud to be part of a company that pronounced "we are and will continue to be, The Best"

No EK is not yet the worst but it is very close to the bottom. Your COS will continue to errode until you finally do hit the bottom. Management were once proactive in growing the business have been replaced by the cost cutters and arse coverers. What was once a culture of inovation is now a culture of paranoia. Waldo, if you ARE in management or training the I urge you to re read your words and think about your suitability for your job. Then resign!!!! Your cynical acceptance of mediocraty is sickening.

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

Contact Capt KIM MILLER FAA AFS 50 Whashington

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

If Ek Is Really So Bad Than Pls Do All Of Us A Favour And Go. Go To Ry@n, E@sy Where Live Is So Easy And Perfect.

I Have Heard That Ry@n And E@sy Pilots Are Wrking On A 20 Days Off And 10 Days On Roster. Good Money. Sick Leave Allowed Up To 100 Days A Year.

But Go And Stop Whining.

You Cant Destroy Emirates Good Reputation. It Is Still One Of The Best Companies To Work For.

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

Keep taking the drugs Hans, you a laugh a minute mate. One of the best companies to work for. Thats the funniest thing written here in a long time. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/la...smiley-014.gif

EGGW

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

http://www.chinaworker.org/cgi-bin/i...iewnews&id=131

Some ideas that may help you.
Think about the thousands of children used as Jockeys, think about working conditions in the construction business, confiscated passports, suicides and so on...

What a terrible place...

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

Why did u wimps left your perfect previous airline to come to EK. Why?

And still its in your hand you can go. WE dont need crybabies like you here in EK. complaining complaining complaining

It makes me sick.

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

why did we put a 3rd pilot on MNL and not ICN

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

Hans: Don't look then you won't upset yourself.

Flex: Fatigue is a major issue. It directly relates to safety. Yes there are others who have it much much worse but this is a jet-jockey issue not a camel-jockey issue, for the latter go to JRuNe for more info.

The most complicated piece of equipment Waldo and his mates operate is a pen. 400+ pax with a crew falling asleep in the front is one of the major issues at EK.

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

I’m afraid to say that just like the most of us I worked right through the festive period. The thing is I thought I had taken care of the ones insisting to spread negativity and a one sided view. Seems they are suckers for punishment and so I shall oblige and go round two.
Seconds out
DING
Here’s the “other side”. Ask yourselves the question why people like Shake, SY, etc get so vociferous when another point of view is aired. The answer is that they are insecure in their own beliefs. This translates to why they would continually slag EK and indeed Dubai off and then opt to stay, qualifying it by saying that they cant just up and move. Nonsense chaps, nobody believes that. Allegedly there are droves of people leaving. Join the queue.
When they get met with arguments of substance they get frustrated and then opt to attacking the author. Accusations of management, training, bla bla yawn yawn. No, I’m not either just a fellow line dude who has a differing point of view. Inconceivable to some, the truth none the less.
And then when reason has really gone out the window we get the insults. Take a look at EGGW’s response to HA. Would you honestly take what EGGW has to write to hold any substance? I think not.

What is happening to these poor souls is very powerful indeed. It happened to the dot com crash. The culprit- Self fulfilling prophesies.

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

Walddy,
Your arguments passed through you and your other IDs do not have any substance. You have been shown to be a fraud on many occassions.
No one objects to another point of view except when it is given by such objectional personas as yours.
Give us the arguments then, the ones with substance. Hang around long enough in one form to substantiate and debate them. Refrain from the insults you accuse others of using...
But history shows that you are incapable of such a debate and to ignore history condemns us to make the same mistake and you are simply not worth it.

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

Hans you are aware of EK and its operating practices aren't you? What good reputation could you possibly be talking about? Lastly, you are aware as I'm sure you are because you are a mangement puke that EK is now drug testing? As a suggestion you might want to get off the contraband before they nail you unless EK does not test office boys.
I think a better topic of the poll should have been is anyone happy at EK? Sure alot of pilots tolerarate EK because they have nowhere else to go but does anyone really enjoy EK? Especially with the way things have been going the last year.

Re: Warning: Emirates Pilots Are Fatigued
 

Do You Really Think That All The Other Companies Are Much Nicer To Their Employees. Do You?

Go To Europe And See All The !!!!ty Airlines.

Desicions Are Based On Company Benefits Not Yours.

Its All About Money.

And I Am Quite Happy To Have A Secure Job With An International Airline.

We Have Nice New Well Maintained A/c, Good Route Structure And Dubai Is Nice To Live( Except The Traffic)

I Was Flying Charter Before, 100 Hours A Month, 3-5 Sectors A Day.

You Are Complaining When You Are Rostered For A Dxb-mct-dxb-doh-dxb Flight. This Is An Easy Flight.

So Tell Me What Is Bad In Ek.

You see Hans these people cannot stand the fact that people like you and I have a life. They sit around in huddled groups and convince one another that things are SOOOOO bad, however as you stated they don’t leave. We point that out to them and they answer some other nonsense. Nowhere to go…… rubbish. Take a look at the latest flight. Plenty jobs there. Deep down they enjoy it here but this is their perverse way of trying to get management to believe we are going to have a max exodus of drivers and so have to pay us more. Great tactic, if it worked. Truth is it doesn’t. Anyone with slightly more than a high school diploma and pilots license would realise this. What it does is convince other worthy people out there that EK is not an alternative and therefore some good blokes are missing out. A very selfish attitude. Yes we should get paid more, yes we should perhaps fly less, yes I’m happy in my job and enjoy where I live.
Bite me.
GAL

Howzit Hans?
Yeh, life is terrible here. Had to sit on the beach in Mauritius the other day with my FO and got horribly sunburnt - you dont perhaps know anything about it? By the way, is it packs on or off this week?
Cheers

WAL...
Some people they have a life.. outside Dubai.
How can you call yourself to have a life while you couldn't even escaped from this place every now and then ( minimum days off a month!! ) Please don't tell me you have a life between scarlett and spinneys???

Everyone were happy at the old days... and yet Company didn't loose any money!!
Wal.. I'm personally don't like the excessive whinning and complaints. But funny enough I think your post make me lil bit sick in the tummy. Laughable

I flew with a captain the other day, he's one of the person who try so hard not to complain and do the job and try to enjoy. BUT STILL ... he thought this airline is an absolute circus!!! Come on..WAL, stop joking. you make us laugh here!

To quote Mr Waldorfin:
Anyone with slightly more than a high school diploma and pilots license would realise this.

So that would be most in EK management then, right!
Sorry, couldn't let that one pass...:)

I enjoy my live in Dubai and I enjoy my life with EK. I agree that the money isnt the best but who pays more, the big picture here in dubai is good.

If it is really so bad here why you dont leave than. And pls stop telling untrue stories about EK.

Of course you can always find minor things to improve but which airline is perfect.

And in my opinion EK is still a very good company to work for.

Emirates should start recruiting motivated and professional pilots with 2000 hours and you will see how many pilots they will get.

And it doesnt matter if they are white or black, asian or european, british or malaysian

Hans:
100 a month 3-5 sectors a day then indeed EK may seem a great deal better. The fact that you were abused at your last airline however does not excuse the fact that you can be treated the way EK treats its pilots, it is simply not an argument for the way things have deteriorated here. Using the same logic you will one day leave EK to your next job when things are bad enough until that too deteriorates to the same level.
Not not all airlines were and are like the ones you experinced but perhaps this is as good as it can get for you. However if the trend continues EK will work you 900+ hrs/year, rosters will make home life impossible and fatigue will become a flight safety/health issue. How will the job be then?
I doubt you have worked in Europe. The airlines in there pay very well and adhere to JAR rules and regulations & you invariably have a union to protect you from arbitary changes to Ts & Cs.
I am happy that you are feeling secure with your International Airline. I just don't think it is a secure as you.

Shake,

I was with an european charter company. ITS NOT TRUE THAT EUROPE PAYS MORE AND GIVES YOU A DECENT LIFE.

For an example Niki pays you only 800 Euros for an FO. If you are sick for more than 1 week they call you for tea and biscuit.

Volare lots of long flights and sectors.

LTU big pay cut, unsecure job, long flights.

Ryan 5 days on 3 days off, 4 sectors every day, In winter 4 times deicing and CAT III. A few of my friends resigned, tooooooo tired after 4 years.

Air berlin, 90 hours every month, no union, lots of sectors

So where is the perfect company.

Guys EK is still good, stop complaining and enjoy ur life.

I know volare went bancrupt. It was just an example

Hans is right (partly)
 

The conditions in Europe are not good, all that Hans mentioned is true and compared to these terrible work conditions life at EK is still good. However let's not compare EK to those charter and low-cost operators like Ryan, LTU, Volare, Air Berlin etc... EK is supposed to be a major airline, a flag carrier. It cannot not be that it drifts down to a level of a cheap charter or low cost carrierer in terms of flight duty, hours, safety etc. 90-100 hrs is too much, everyone working as a pilot knows that, SAFETY WILL BE COMPROMISED BY FATIGUE!:confused:

Hans:

Points taken but compare like with like. Do you really compare EK with Volare, Lauda & LTU? Air Berlin please, if that is what EK has to compare itself with to look good then the point is already made. EK want you to believe we compare with BA, KLM, Air France et al but it doesn't, it just doesn't.

You are right Flying Croc,I mean you only have to look at Etihad to see what the cheap charter airline management has done for them.Itcertainly would be a shame if EK went the same way.If any of you guys are serious about leaving.....dont even consider Etihad.The conditions there are a million times worse.......management by fear(or should i say monkeys!)terrible pay.A lot of guys are hanging on because they think that things are so bad that they can only get better.Who knows perhaps they will?I think things at EK will have to sink a lot further down in the quality and SAFETY standards before they reach the ETIHAD level.Good luck anyway

Just as an exercise, where exactly would the unhappy people like to go to. Who still has an old style roster with alll the lifestyle perks from the past.I'm sure that the reality in alot of companies in terms of work load isnt much different.The odd , and very sort after ,dinosaur airline job not withstanding.

Badly rostered longhaul, badly rostered lowcost, badly rostered charter , its all the same result, knackered, zombie, operating in a stae of fatigue worse than any drink/fly limit.. I get the impression that Ek has worn out the honeymoon period and the guys there are now suffering the same levels of fatigue and lifestyle that a summer charter operator suffers, relatively speaking...number of sectors etc. Ba newhires on 5 or 6 east coast bullets ( 4 of them weekends) a month is pretty hard going as well.Charter drivers on a mix of longhaul bullets and short mediium haul , day after day. Sharm there and back 12 hrs not level 2 means you can be back in the saddle in 12 hrs for another or straight onto a night group. Its all the same !!!!. I think it just seems worse at ek because of the past high standard of living and lifestyle.

I think its a bad case of grass is greener , with a few exceptions where you cant get in anyway.

Not looking for a row just curious where they would go with a dubai rating without reverting back to the sort of enviroment they were probably hoping to leave behind,but has now caught up with them. All enviroments change, but none more obvious than the change in expat life in general and the airline business in general.

So where is the nirvanna these days.

BB

Perhaps that's the point. EK is as green as the others; not what it was and not what it professes to be...nirvanna it is not.

Oi'll be tipping a jar to that! :ok:

-!-
 

I guess after a couple of years in one company a lot of collegues become blind for reality.

After the experience of flying for different airlines in Europe I am looking for an stable base in our generally downgoeing business. Europe is far away from beeing regulated, thus for all member countries. The MEL is the book I read the most and you have to face a sluggish maintenance, because lowcost IS and MEANS lowcost.
You will be reported to the DO if you do entries in the Technical Logbook and so on...so I can easily understand Hans and divide his point of view.

Yes a lot of our collegues get in JAR command early, but if you fly Easy, Ryan, Air Berlin etc. you think you become Captain with 24 years because of your qualities?? Come on, is this a joke or is this the JAR quality ??
The Lowcost Airlines are timebombs in point of view.

You get rich in Europe?? Ask what a Captain in e.g. TUI Belgium is earning for a month...Do you know that there is a VAT of 20% in most of the countries and you have to pay up to 55% tax on your salary...after all you work 5 Days/4 Legs for nuts, because at the end no one will pay you the pension.

But this is not the point, if you feel so uncomfortable and you can not change the company conditions, try your luck and go to a better one.
Remember as professionals we are getting paid for our work, but if you can get a better contract, then why don´t you go??

But please, please, please STOP whining please, (because I do not have compassion for you) or go whereever you think it´s better.

Our point exactly, Hans, 4legs.

Most of the more senior guys in EK were your A-class candidate. With backgrounds from national carriers and/or military trained and/or reputable international carriers.

Now that they are scraping the bottom of the barrel, with the likes of you.......well you must think this is Heaven.

When we joined EK, it offered better conditions to what we had.

Now that they cater for your average C-class candidate, well EK just doesn't cut the mustard...........we will bitch and moan and unless things improve soon......... we will leave.

You and your bottom-of-the-barrel mates must stay, where else can the likes of you fly a wide body???
You will be managed by Waldo the "management puke" as described by Rainman.

The fact remains that we are short of pilots, failing to attract new ones in the quantities required and losing those we cannot afford to lose. The result is that those remaining are taking up the slack in an already busy roster. The result is fatigue at levels that are of major concern to the pilots and should be to the management.

Forget fatigue management studies/diaries, ASRs or going sick are the only tools we have to mitigate the current situation as it cannot be avoided.