ijp

Agree with you 100%

About the Israelis. Let us just get one thing straight right hear an now. They are there for good and they are there to stay. They have over 200 nukes to back it up and if necessary they will be used.

Please don't bring up Israel.. it makes me sick just hearing it. I am sorry but all they do in Canada is bicker and whine how they got killed during the second world war. What about the millions who died and were European? They want everyone to feel sorry for them, they run America and thats why the terrorists hate America. I couldn't spell it out any clearer, thats the main reason. I lost great grandparents and even my last name because noone knew who my grandma was (she was too young to speak). I think people suffered to. I hope Palestine kickes their ass!

The best, most honest and kind people I know are arab. And its a shame a few terrorists make the americans think so low of them. I'd rather trust my life with an arab than an American any day.

It is easy enough, being a monday morning quarter back, or for my british friends, coach.

I see a whole lot of whinning and hand wringing, but very little constructive criticism vis a vis the war on terror.

Now, I am far from an expert and really have do not have much of an idea of what needs to be done. It does however appear, that fundamentalist Islamic teachings are the cause. It appears to me, that they wish to go back to the stone age, or close there to, with women being second class citizens and life must be lived under the most strict interpretation of the Koran. Sort of like when the Taliban ruled Afghanistan or Khoemeni in Iran.

Further, there is no appeasing these terrorist, if you give an inch, they will only seek more. They can only see their side of the coin and will not engage in diplomacy.

Yes, Israel has not exactly done well with diplomacy and for that I am saddened. On the other hand, they live under constant threat from terror. None of the ME countries recognizes Israel as a state, not to mention, the ME countries are happy to band together to destroy Israel, six day war comes to mind.

So what do we do? As I said, I am no expert, but obviously, we cannot live in a world, where the next second may be your last, due to some suicide bomber who considers all non muslims infidels and there for are inclined to kill us in the name of Allah.

The world would be a better place, if we could learn to respect each other, but sometimes, the idea of that seems to be beyond our reach.

My friend came to visit me from Kuwait, he brought with him a magazine. Inside were pictures of Israelis storming a lebanese camp killing people. There was a mosque and they went inside and killed people and hung them from the lines on the phone poles.

Suicide Bombers? They are young people 16-24, who parents have been murdered by Israelis, homes destroyed, lives shattered. Why does the news only show Palestineans doing s*** cause the T.V. networks are all owned by Jews, CNN, ABC.. you name it. They want to cover their a** so they can look like the victims, but I know the truth.

If someone came into your land, told you what to do, killed your parents, destroyed everything you have ever owned, you are telling me you wouldn't be pissed?!?

Oh, you mean like the British did with their colonies?

You are correct, in that the news services leaves a lot to be desired. But from there, to a giant zionist propaganda machine is probably too far.

I wish there could be some kind of resolution to the palestinian issue, but as long as their rhetoric is: "Israel must be wiped of this earth", nothing will ever be accomplished. For a while, it did seem like something good was happening, but the powers that be, in particular Arafat, was adamantly opposed to any form of reconcilation.

Before this turn into a slagging of the US, I need not point out the problems with terror in N. Ireland, the separatist in Spain etc.

Instead of whinning, why not present a solution?

Dear ijb,

Your sentence:

"so why are we in the west having to pay for the barbarian conduct of the middle east."


Mine :why are we in the whole world having to pay for the brutal existence of Israel?why are in the whole world having to pay for the U.S. support to Israel?

MD11,

In my country we can hear everyday that my nation has to pay them MONEY for more than 3 generations later.

The media has cancelled a document movie about the AVH (local version of the Soviet KGB) because there were to many "israeli" names (70% about) among the members.

Deske,

So your assertion is, that if Israel was no more, acts of terror would not occur?

You are saying, that the Al Quaida attacks on 9-11 was in support of those who wish Israel to disappear?

On 9/11, many jewish executives did not go to work because they were warned something might happen.... I don't think the israelis deserve retribution, only a swift kick in the a**!

You have sources for this, or just the normal conspiracy theories!

Something misunderstanding:

I am talking about that the terror is primarly supported by the cionist politics in the M.E. and in the US.

And the superior behavior of the Israelis.How many United Nations" Resolutions are not in order in Israel?

I am sure as well that the brutal attacks 9/11 were not a surprise to some people holding other passport than arabic.

Do You remember when the "Reichstag" (German Parliment Building) was in flames in the 1930's? I think You all know the story.The nazis burnt it then destroyed the remaining political parties in Germany.

Who would spread the rumours, that jews were notably absent 9-11. Perhaps those who wish to deflect blame?

"None of us needs any
reminders after the events of September 11 about what an ugly place the world can be, but we continue to receive those reminders nonetheless. In this case, there are plenty of anti-Semitic, anti-Zionist, and anti-Israeli groups eager to use the horrors of September 11 as fodder for propaganda to serve their own political ends.

The pieces quote above scarely merit the dignity of a rebuttal. One need only have read newspaper accounts of the thousands of deaths, viewed TV news interviews with grieving families, and scanned the lists of the dead and missing to know that the terrorist attack on New York City claimed the lives of Christians, Jews, and Muslims; agnostics, atheists, and the non-religious alike. No religion was spared, no denomination singled out. Ordinary people of all nationalities suffered. No miracles, human intervention, foreknowledge, coincidence, or vagaries of fate saved more than a few World Trade Center workers from meeting their deaths that day.

Nonetheless, those with something to gain by sowing the seeds of divisiveness would have us believe that Israel had advance warning of the World Trade Center attack, that they managed to notify 4,000 Jews who worked in the two towers, but that they left the U.S. completely unaware of the danger. ("Hello, David Rosenberg? This is the Mossad. Listen, don't go to work on Tuesday. Yeah, another terrorist attack on the U.S. . . . call in sick. And remember, not a word to any of your gentile relatives, friends, or co-workers.") And even though this scoop to top all scoops is now winging its way all over the Internet, the American press apparently still remains completely in the dark about the nefarious scheme. Is it any surprise that this story emanated from Pravda and Al-Manar Television, the pro-Palestinian "Channel of Arabs and Muslims"?

Why would Israel follow such a course of action, betray its staunchest ally, and doom thousands of innocent Americans to death? There are no rational answers to that question, only ugly propagandistic ones. "Israel wants to draw America into a final showdown with its Arab enemies, so they didn't warn us" — the same conspiracy theory that posited our leaders knew about the impending Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor allowed it to happen in order to galvanize public support for a war. Old theory, new clothes. Even darker is the implication that Israel, not content to wait for an attack which would embroil America in a Middle Eastern war, forced the issue by pulling off a monstrous act of terrorism again the USA themselves.

"It is clear to all that the Jews/Israel have most to gain and should be considered as a possible source behind this act," we're told. We hope what's clear to all is that those who author and disseminate this kind of garbage are really the ones with the most to gain.

Last updated: 21 September 2001




The URL for this page is http://www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.htm"

Dear Diesel8,


Read the Tora a little bit.I have done it.

Deske,

It really is not a question of reading the Tora or the Koran, both with preaches peace and coexistance.

The question is more, that some people wishes to twist these religions into things that are detrimental to us all.

Let me know, how we can adequately contain those, who wishes to use religion as a cause for evil doing, because all this finger pointing gets us absolutely no where!

Hoo boy, you guys are beating this one to death!

Somehow this one is still teetering on the rails - please keep it that way. There is no aviation related content in this thread but as it does affect those of us who live in the region we'll keep it going in the interests of free speech - just keep it nice, no radical statements or xenophobic statements will be tolerated.

It's interesting to note that virtually none of the folk involved in this discussion live anywhere near the region. But please, carry on if you will.

4HP

4holerpoler,

Of course it teethers on the rails, most of these "ugly" discussions tend to do that. Does that mean it will get out on control, I certainly hope not.

As for me, I live in the US, although was born in Europe. Needless to say, the events of recent, has been rather trying and very sad.

If you live in the ME, I would be very interested in hearing your views as to what can be done and how we may go forward. I am sure you would have some ideas.

Kind regards,
D8

4Hole,

Aviation content?

Well,I have got the offer from Qatar Airways and my wife and me are arguing about to move or not for more than a week.

And I am also not sure about it now,cause I am afraid if these actions would cross the border let's say in the next year.



:ugh:

If You live in the region,please advise your opinion about my fear.

I think this is a perfect thread. This has everything to do with aviation, because its issues like these that people have to look at when thinking about pursuing a career in the middle east. This sort of thing may stop people from wanting to move down there, and I doubt any airline would let you argue this sort of thing in the cockpit :p

Deske--
Personally lived and worked in the ME for over twenty years, and was always treated with respect...and did likewise.
If you have a job offer...take it, providing the cash and conditions are to your liking.
Who knows, you may actually enjoy it.
Yes, the cash isn't what it used to be, but hey, the same can be said for many other areas.
Go with the flow...for the least 'problems'.
OTOH, don't expect a rose garden either:ooh:
Life is a challange, and those who never accept the challange generally live to regret it, later on.

You know what the basic difference is between westerners and arab's world? In the western world, when they have critics to make, they make a movie and get awards (Moore) and in the arab world when they have critics to make, they write a book and then there life is threaten. (Rushdie)

Since nobody wants to talk about Sudan, here's some facts : 2 million people have been killed and millions more have been removed from their land and put in a refugee camp by THE ARAB MUSLIM FROM THE NORTH IN SUDAN.

Worst conflict than in Palestine but it seems no one wants to talk about it. Double standard again.

:rolleyes:

Well thats Africa my friend, and it happens alot there, government reforms, rebels, Christians vs. Muslims. Just looks at Angola, Congo and Rwanda, 2 million slaughtered in the Rwanda genocide. And then 2500 people die on 9/11 and the world stops to mourn. We need to quit being so ignorant, the US is not the world and s*** like this happens every day and in some parts of the world its like a normal event.

So there I was, nervously sitting next to a fellow pilot in uniform who is waiting to head out to the airport to do his flight in an Al Khobar hotel not more than 3km from the Oasis compound and the day after the events . . . . . nervously sipping coffee- nervous because of rumours that there is more gunfire going on somewhere in the city, wondering if guys with AK-47's will be rushing into the lobby at any moment asking where we are from or what interpretation of God we subscribe to. Or whether we might get popped off on our way to the airport, or coming from. Or whether they will coming to our front door during our day off. Has this got anything to do with aviation? Welcome to our world. :sad:

MD11, your comment about jews being warned not to go to work on 9/11 are nothing but rumours This is has been investigated with no conclusions. All I know is a friend of mine who was a big shot at Goldman Sachs (a jew) happened to be at work that day.

Diesel, you are very well informed and I share alot of your views. I DO live in the ME, Bahrain and my wife and I are leaving in July for good. In my opinion this is no longer a safe place to live, this is not the only reason we are leaving but a big part of it. It is only a matter of time before attacks like these spread to other countries in the region.

So much talk about Isreal and Palestine. I don't think this problem will ever get solved but here is some food for thought.

The UN gives Isreal a territory, the arab states are not happy (rightfully so) and decide.. hey we will take them by force. This plan doesn't work and they end up losing more ground to the Jews. Then they turn to the UN and cry foul. Would they have cried foul to the UN if they would have beaten Isreal? Of course not.... a total double standard. Your plan backfired guys, they did to you exactly what you were trying to do to them!

Alot of talk about Saudi aswell, this has nothing to do with the US. Countries in the ME cannot survive without the expats. Sad but true. Saudi is not different. The militants target expats mostly to try and destabilize the country. If Saudi stops pumping oil out of the ground it's game over for them. In Saudi, 95% of the money goes to 5% of the population. The people are tired of this and it's only a matter of time before the royal family is taken down. The recent attacks by the militants is just the start of this whole process.

Coming out to work here was a great experience and I pocketed a bucket full of cash. But they say, when you come to the ME, you come with 2 buckets.. one for money one for Bullsh**. Once one is full, you leave.. well both are full right now and we're leaving.

My sources were NBC, and there was even an executive who lost all of his workers when that one day for the first time he decided to take his kid to school and showed up an hour after it happened. Not rumors, because alot of people here know about it cause they watch the news.... don't rely on the internet.

one isolated incident?? all of a sudden there is a conspiracy where people got messages on their answering machines, pagers etc?? come on....

why didn't my friend get the message? or why didn't many of his jewish co-workers get these phone calls...??????

Apparetly the Jewish ORganization "Mossad" had warned several Israelis (not all) about going to work that day. And when the towers were falling many saw a Israeli film crew nearby cheering, this is why many thought Israelis were the ones who did this to tarnish the image of the arab world. Of course no proof of this but there was a documentary and it showed very good proof that the Israelis knew that the attacks were going to happen and I can't remember if they warned the US government or just warned their own people... it was in early 2003 when I saw this documentary

Yeah they were holding their cameras AND a flag that said, "ISRAELI FILM CREW".

Get real.

Sympathies to the familes and friends of those killed in Al Khobar and other places over there.

No they were actually shooting a movie in New York, so when you see cameras, trucks, lights, I guess you could assume they are making a movie, afterall its New York

When the time comes, to justify all your hatred (you arabs) we can hear so much funny stories.

I've got a couple of stories for you....Elvis is alive...JFK has been shot by the mafia...Washington is controlled by an extra-terrestriel from Roswell.....and the best one for you, the world is controlled by a group of 11 powerful jews, hide underground in a secret place!!!!

Now put that in your "true story files" and use it when you need it!:}

I find the idea of Israel being behind the attacks on 9-11 quite ludicrious. One because why attack your staunchest supporter and two, if that was the truth and it was ever to come out, it would be buhbye Israel, absolutely, positively no doubt about it.

Cannot say I have ever seen the Israeli film crew you talk about, I did however see large crowds on Muslims celebrating and cheering. Perhaps the documentary you saw, was made by Al Jazeera? (sic)

The ME news have been trying to deflect blame for quite a while, but I think most people can see through the intent of this. As I write this, I must remind you, that terrorist attacks are now taking place in Saudi Arabia. Am I too believe, the Israelis are behind that too?

I think, it will get worse before it gets better, because it appears those who wish evil are getting desperate as the world closes in on them. Hopefully, a democratic goverment, who will fight terrorism, will be successful in Iraq and perhaps that will lead to democracy spreading in the ME or at least a bit more stability.

Where did you see this? Time and location?

OR are you saying you saw it on CNN? I understand that much of the footage of people cheering and celebrating was taken months before Sept 11th. :hmm:

Panama Jack,
You are 100% correct. As the footage that CNN aired was actually shot during the first Gulf War when Saddam launched some scuds towards Israel.

"Reuters rejects as utterly baseless an allegation being circulated by e-mail and the Internet claiming that it circulated 10-year-old videotape to illustrate Palestinians celebrating in the wake of the September 11 tragedies in the United States. Reuters welcomes a statement by the Universidad Estatal de Campinas-Brasil (UNICAMP), one of whose students was the author of the original e-mail, setting the record straight. The videotape in question was shot in East Jerusalem by a Reuters camera crew on September 11 in the immediate aftermath of the attacks on the United States. The footage was broadcast by CNN and other subscribers to the Reuters video news service."

"CNN did not air decade-old footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets. Eason Jordan, CNN's Chief News Executive, confirmed that the video used on CNN was in fact shot on Tuesday, 11 September 2001, in East Jerusalem by a Reuters TV crew, not during the Persian Gulf conflict of 1990-91 — a fact proved by its inclusion of comments from a Palestinian praising Osama Bin Laden (whose name was unlikely to have come up ten years earlier in connection with the invasion and liberation of Kuwait) as well as the appearance in the video of post-1991 automobiles."

I am saddened, that conspiracy theories abound, wrt the WTC and the attacks against the US 9/11.

If OBL is not behind 9/11, then why not have Al Jazeera run a video tape of him, denouncing these events. They certainly seem to be given access to info. Instead, we get this: "In 1998, several al-Qaeda leaders issued a declaration calling on Muslims to kill Americans—including civilians—as well as “those who are allied with them from among the helpers of Satan.”

Further, after 9-11, the arab talkings heads, were quick to point out, that while the attack were horrendous, that the US was perhaps partly responsible for repsonses against the US.

I find it incredolous, that respected news organizations, who reside in parts of the world, where free speech is a right, is disregarded and information from sources like Al Jazeera is held in higher esteem.

Wonder who they will claim did the attacks in Saudi, Spain, Khobar Towers, UN Building, Bali Disco, WTC bombing 1, US embassy in Nairobi ? I know, it is a vast zionist conspiracy!

Honestly, I understand, that the vast majority of people on this earth wishes to live in peace, whether they are Muslims, Christian, red or Blue, but there are those that do not wish this to be. Turning a blind eye to this fact, is not a prudent thing for us to do!

HE SLAM! - like it. :ok: Surprised that your post made it on.

PJ

I did however see large crowds on Muslims celebrating and cheering.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Where did you see this? Time and location?


I did. September 11 2001 in Riyadh.

All I can say is that this thread shows, how deep rooted is the hatred and prejudice of most westerners towards Arabs and Muslims, on the other hand I have never had this in me, and I look at everbody as friends and colleagues.
It is also very obvious that a lot of Jews are among the people who live in these Arab/Muslim countries who also love this thread.
May god bless all of you with love and goodness?
:confused:

I missed someone saying they hated arabs, I don't. Where I live its 80% arabs, most of my friends are arabs and they are all good people. No problem here!

I've recently accepted a position in Bahrain, having visited this fine Island numerous times over the past few years. From speaking to my Bahraini friends it is plainly obvious that the main problem here is not so much Israel, but rather the complete and total lack of understanding Arab mentality on behalf of the western world, especially the US.

Basically, these people are not interested in having our way of life imposed on them, just as "we" would not be interested in having their way of life imposed on us. The sad part is that your average American cannot fathom that the US way of life has very little in the way of appeal here, and I will venture the proposition this is also valid for a large part of the rest of the world.

Until such time that the US realises that people from different parts of the planet have no wish to live like Americans, but would rather perserve their own culture and way of life, there is litttle hope that the deep distrust and even outright hatred against the US will diminish, and thus terrorism will continue.

As you will probably know there is a very large US presence here in Bahrain, and I've meet quite a few people from the US Navy, Army and Air Force. To a man, they are utterly incapable of understanding that neither Europeans nor Arabs have any inclination to become "Americanized" - they fully belive that the US way of life is the end all and be all of civilization.

So when the US fails to win hearts and minds, they resort to bullying tactics thereby further alianting both supposed allies and adding fire to an already burning hatred. One is inclined to put the present US government in the same basket as so-called Muslem fundamentalists - their simplistic and narrow minded views of the world, although directly opposed, bears many similarities.

The fact of the matter is that somewhere around 99% of the poulation, both here and in the rest of the world, wants nothing more than to live a peaceful life, raise their families and succeed to the best of their abilities. The problem is the 1% who are fundamentalists, whether they are Muslem, Jewish or Christians. And yes, I will list the present US government among the fundamentalists.

Is there a solution to this problem? Well, of course there is. The House of Saud needs to be replaced by another form of government - the US support for that family of deep corruption and dictatorship is another cause of hatred. The Israeli / Palestinian conflict needs to be resolved - again the unilateral US support to Israel is another source of hatred. To put it in a nutshell, the US will need to stop messing around with the politics here and get to grasp with the fact that the US way of life is not wanted, nor needed, in this and many other parts of the world.

Finally, no matter how well we mean it this place is not yet ready for the sort of democracy we enjoy in the west. A strong leader is needed to handle the "big issues" like security, defence and foreign policy. Domestic politics can be handled by a democratically elected parliament, but there neeeds to be a top dog. Arabs have little in the way of respect for touchy-feely democracy and that is exactly why the mission in Iraq is bound to fail.

Well, this Jewish website owner must be part of the great Zionist conspiracy that md11flyer is ranting on about. It is a conspiracy, which is why I have decided to remove his rantings from this website.

Thanks to the ignorant spoutings of twisted minds like his, we have to suffer accusations that are so preposterous and infantile, but with serious under and overtones, and some people wonder why the problems exist. If anyone on here is not happy with the fact that this website owner is Jewish and has served in the Israeli military then you are fee to go elsewhere and spout your rants. you will not, however, be given free reign on this website to pass off Goebbels type lies and false propaganda.

Fair discussion is OK and I have no problem with both sides of the arguments being put forward but the type of utter rubbish that is designed to raise the ignorant fears and ultimately designed to produce hate will not be tolerated. Anyone supporting those views will also be subjected to the Zionist power. :rolleyes: Eejits such as md11flyer are welcome to go back to their own websites and leave this bastion of Zionist media control to the rest of us who are prepared to act like the professionals we purport to be and discuss contentious issues without resorting to outrageous lies put forward by those trying to take the heat away from their own guilt.

Feel free to start again but keep it reasoned.

:*