Vaccine implications on your licence
 

Just a quick a note to suggest for some due diligence for those considering a COVID vaccine that may not be recognised by the appropriate medical regulator in the country where your non expat flying licence is issued. The worst case scenario could be that the licence(s) that you are depending on could be invalidated.

I am not trying to provoke a vax vs anti vax debate or any other debate for that matter. I merely wish to highlight an issue that could be easily overlooked but is still incredibly important and especially so with such volatility in the industry. Take time to read the relevant small print to ensure that the vaccine you choose, will be compatible with all the flying licences you may wish/have to use outside of the Middle East.

Or you simply don't tell whichever aviation regulator is being a stick in the mud. It's not rocket surgery.

The reality is fleet are threatening us.

They will say they aren't but we know they are, because the order from above is everyone will be vaccinated, those who chose not to will be eliminated.

If you in fleet choose not to help implement this vaccine mandate you will be eliminated also.

EK plan going forward is to announce to the world they are the first airline with all frontline staff vaccinated. Fly with us, we are safe. It will be all over their press releases. The reality that they have been vaccinated with something not approved in the west will be completely irrelevant.

Anyone standing in the way of the implementation of this plan will be eliminated.

That's all correct Evots. What's your point? Should we be surprised or something?

Being vaccinated does not stop you from getting c19, nor does it prevent you from spreading it.

It merely prepares your body for a proper response should you contract the bug and thereby hopefully stay out of hospital.

How then does an unvaccinated person put a vaccinated person at risk?

What am I missing?

A basic understanding of how vaccines work.

Would you be so kind as to educate me or direct me to the source information?

Vaccines work by causing the destruction of the disease-causing pathogen by the immune system. In the case of the SARS-COV2 vaccines we don't yet know if vaccination will lead to true sterile immunity, however that would be a reasonable expectation, at least for the target strain. Most vaccines do completely eliminate the pathogen or prevent it ever becoming established, but that has not been formally demonstrated for COVID. But fundamentally, vaccines reduce the chance of the bug becoming established, and reduce the total pathogen load if it does get through, and thus reduce the chance of passing on the bug to a susceptible person. For most pathogens and most people, a vaccinated person cannot pass on the disease at all.

Thus a vaccinated crew - and groundstaff - would be beneficial for both the company and pax, although I suspect for unvaccinated pax, the biggest risk is from unvaccinated fellow passengers. I strongly suspect that very soon vaccination will be required to fly.

Succcint explanation double_barrel.

Every year some take Flu Vaccine, Hepatitis (TwinRix) , Yellow Fever... DtaP, BCG etc.

I don't recall ever asking the nurse or doctor which brand Pharma is accepted by which Licensing Authority.

Personally, the chance of catching it and having the long term implications should serious symptoms develop which could revoke my license seems to weigh towards the riskier approach.

​​​​​​Your body, your call. I don't think anyone should be forced, but just make informed decisions balancing risks and benefits.

Thanks DB, I just wish it was that simple. Your first paragraph reads like a “copy and paste” and it all sounds plausible, unfortunately with just a little research one would find vastly opposing opinions. These differing opinions are by scientists and doctors and not by pilots/taxi drivers/you cousin’s aunt/the neighbour’s gardener, so it is kind of confusing.

The other big problem is the “we just don’t know yet” facet which you have also mentioned.

I agree with MW, it is a personal choice to make on the best info you have and what poses the greatest risk. Not an easy decision.

Thanks, I guess I should be flattered, that was copy and paste straight from my brain. I have been an immuno-geneticist for 20 years. Nothing I said is even slightly controversial, although it is simplified. Of course a little 'research' (ie googling) will find plenty of nonsense.

The absolutely fundamental misunderstanding in your original post was that vaccines don't impact the pathogen, just the disease process. That is totally wrong. I would love to see some research showing anything different (actually there are some very rare exceptions, but not relevant here). Almost all vaccines work by priming the immune system to detect and eliminate a disease-causing organism (or toxin).

Sad state of affairs, it was a classic bait and switch.

Now that most people do not want the Chinese Vax they have resorted to threats.

Even sadder that you will have to sign stuff to indemnify them if the vaccine reacts badly to your body, yet it wasn't a personal choice

Double-barrel since you are a immuno-geneticist, can you explain to us simple folk what Antibody-dependent enhancement is? I understand that it is a risk with coronavirus vaccines.

“I don't recall ever asking the nurse or doctor which brand Pharma is accepted by which Licensing Authority.”


Absolutely correct. I took the chinese version couple weeks ago, vaccination card does not mention what type was given to you.

double_barrel

Wow, a 20 year immuno-geneticist hanging around a pilot-trash-talking forum.....a breath of fresh air! Welcome!

Jokes aside, thanks for your input, we need a lot more conversation regarding this topic. We as pilots are trained to develop a healthy sense of suspicion and with all the opinions being pushed (all by experts) the red lights for me are flashing everywhere. We have been lied to too many times and when someone constantly tries to convince me to do something (2-3 emails per day), I get nervous. Whether it is the call from the “investment guy”, the used car salesman, free loan guy, the forex ponzi guy, the health product guy.......list goes on.....when it gets pushed so hard, I start wondering how much has to do with financial gain as opposed to my well-being. How many of you have been lying awake in an US hotel room, staring at the infomercials @ 3am? First they push a certain drug and the very next advertisement is from a law firm who will help you sue if you had been disabled by the drug that was pushed 2 years ago. That same drug 2 years ago was approved and the answer to all your problems. Have a listen at the end when they talk so fast about the side-effects......heart failure, sudden death, all other sorts of dysfunctions....I kid you not!

You mention the research and that for me is probably the biggest bone of contention. How much time has been spent on these new technology vaccines? Do we really have an idea about the long term consequences? Everything seems too rushed! Once that needle goes into your arm, it can not be reversed and as mentioned you have to sign an indemnity form! You have to admit, for a non-immuno-geneticist this might be too much to compute. Sounds like blind faith to me, maybe, I don’t know?

Regarding my initial assumption and question, I have started to notice people thinking that once vaccinated, normal life will return, this jab will fix all. I think there lies a big danger in that attitude, but it’s another subject. If I understand you correctly this vax issue can be split into 2 facets. Firstly, it will prep you for a real infection and therefore you should not be that scared of un-vaxed people as your immune system will deal with the problem swiftly. Secondly, and this is the point I missed, is that although a vaxed person can still, possibly spread the virus, the chances become less because your primed immune system has been attacking the virus from the get go.

Anyway, any input appreciated!

Double B; Are you SURE that the vaccine under debate works in the same manner as all other vaccines ? ......Sure ? Promise ?.....

For what it's worth, AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine has just been approved by the DHA. Hopefully that is another option that will be made available to us.

Landflap

Depends what yo mean by 'works'!

With the respect to the misinformation posted above, yes, all 'work' by potentiating a host immune response that targets the SAR-COV2 virus. I am sure. I promise.

Of course some achieve that work by 'working' in a different way. Some are very traditional vaccines based on inactivated virus, others use novel mRNA methods, and there are at least 2 technologies that fit somewhere in between along that spectrum. But all target the virus. I don't know of any that target the COVID-19 disease process - although that is not impossible and someone may well be working on it. Certainly immune modulation is a route for therapy.

I think you'll find that whether it's Pfizer/Sinopharm/Astra Zeneca you will probably need to sign a waiver.

Some governments have an insurance scheme with a payout should you have adverse reactions - e.g. Singapore. Someone will have to pay for this/money will come from somewhere.

​​​​​​https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...-b1765124.html

​​​​​​https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news...ation-14036592

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapo...f-the-covid-19

https://www.todayonline.com/singapor...s-side-effects

I'm not promoting Sinopharm - but just from a layman's perspective it's the more traditional inactivated virus - perhaps Analog whereas the mRNA ones are specific T-Cell - Digital. The AstraZeneca one is using a chimpanzee/gorilla virus as the vehicle of delivery. I think the UK health minister mentioned for the different strains there are variants it'll be like tweaking it as if "installing a wing mirror on your car".

The Sinopharm is probably the whole car analogy. Which is better, higher efficacy? Maybe double-barrel can espouse some of his wisdom here.

As long as any vaccine can prevent me from falling seriously ill with the symptoms, I don't really mind which one( good enough - not perfect). The serious symptoms are the stuff that kill you.

All vaccines or drugs, have side effects - kidney damage etc. Just need to weigh the risks versus benefits of taking or not taking them.

Sorry layman understanding.