Vaccine implications on your licence
 

Just a quick a note to suggest for some due diligence for those considering a COVID vaccine that may not be recognised by the appropriate medical regulator in the country where your non expat flying licence is issued. The worst case scenario could be that the licence(s) that you are depending on could be invalidated.

I am not trying to provoke a vax vs anti vax debate or any other debate for that matter. I merely wish to highlight an issue that could be easily overlooked but is still incredibly important and especially so with such volatility in the industry. Take time to read the relevant small print to ensure that the vaccine you choose, will be compatible with all the flying licences you may wish/have to use outside of the Middle East.

Or you simply don't tell whichever aviation regulator is being a stick in the mud. It's not rocket surgery.

The reality is fleet are threatening us.

They will say they aren't but we know they are, because the order from above is everyone will be vaccinated, those who chose not to will be eliminated.

If you in fleet choose not to help implement this vaccine mandate you will be eliminated also.

EK plan going forward is to announce to the world they are the first airline with all frontline staff vaccinated. Fly with us, we are safe. It will be all over their press releases. The reality that they have been vaccinated with something not approved in the west will be completely irrelevant.

Anyone standing in the way of the implementation of this plan will be eliminated.

That's all correct Evots. What's your point? Should we be surprised or something?

Being vaccinated does not stop you from getting c19, nor does it prevent you from spreading it.

It merely prepares your body for a proper response should you contract the bug and thereby hopefully stay out of hospital.

How then does an unvaccinated person put a vaccinated person at risk?

What am I missing?

A basic understanding of how vaccines work.

Would you be so kind as to educate me or direct me to the source information?

Vaccines work by causing the destruction of the disease-causing pathogen by the immune system. In the case of the SARS-COV2 vaccines we don't yet know if vaccination will lead to true sterile immunity, however that would be a reasonable expectation, at least for the target strain. Most vaccines do completely eliminate the pathogen or prevent it ever becoming established, but that has not been formally demonstrated for COVID. But fundamentally, vaccines reduce the chance of the bug becoming established, and reduce the total pathogen load if it does get through, and thus reduce the chance of passing on the bug to a susceptible person. For most pathogens and most people, a vaccinated person cannot pass on the disease at all.

Thus a vaccinated crew - and groundstaff - would be beneficial for both the company and pax, although I suspect for unvaccinated pax, the biggest risk is from unvaccinated fellow passengers. I strongly suspect that very soon vaccination will be required to fly.

Succcint explanation double_barrel.

Every year some take Flu Vaccine, Hepatitis (TwinRix) , Yellow Fever... DtaP, BCG etc.

I don't recall ever asking the nurse or doctor which brand Pharma is accepted by which Licensing Authority.

Personally, the chance of catching it and having the long term implications should serious symptoms develop which could revoke my license seems to weigh towards the riskier approach.

​​​​​​Your body, your call. I don't think anyone should be forced, but just make informed decisions balancing risks and benefits.

Thanks DB, I just wish it was that simple. Your first paragraph reads like a “copy and paste” and it all sounds plausible, unfortunately with just a little research one would find vastly opposing opinions. These differing opinions are by scientists and doctors and not by pilots/taxi drivers/you cousin’s aunt/the neighbour’s gardener, so it is kind of confusing.

The other big problem is the “we just don’t know yet” facet which you have also mentioned.

I agree with MW, it is a personal choice to make on the best info you have and what poses the greatest risk. Not an easy decision.

Thanks, I guess I should be flattered, that was copy and paste straight from my brain. I have been an immuno-geneticist for 20 years. Nothing I said is even slightly controversial, although it is simplified. Of course a little 'research' (ie googling) will find plenty of nonsense.

The absolutely fundamental misunderstanding in your original post was that vaccines don't impact the pathogen, just the disease process. That is totally wrong. I would love to see some research showing anything different (actually there are some very rare exceptions, but not relevant here). Almost all vaccines work by priming the immune system to detect and eliminate a disease-causing organism (or toxin).

Sad state of affairs, it was a classic bait and switch.

Now that most people do not want the Chinese Vax they have resorted to threats.

Even sadder that you will have to sign stuff to indemnify them if the vaccine reacts badly to your body, yet it wasn't a personal choice

Double-barrel since you are a immuno-geneticist, can you explain to us simple folk what Antibody-dependent enhancement is? I understand that it is a risk with coronavirus vaccines.

“I don't recall ever asking the nurse or doctor which brand Pharma is accepted by which Licensing Authority.”


Absolutely correct. I took the chinese version couple weeks ago, vaccination card does not mention what type was given to you.

double_barrel

Wow, a 20 year immuno-geneticist hanging around a pilot-trash-talking forum.....a breath of fresh air! Welcome!

Jokes aside, thanks for your input, we need a lot more conversation regarding this topic. We as pilots are trained to develop a healthy sense of suspicion and with all the opinions being pushed (all by experts) the red lights for me are flashing everywhere. We have been lied to too many times and when someone constantly tries to convince me to do something (2-3 emails per day), I get nervous. Whether it is the call from the “investment guy”, the used car salesman, free loan guy, the forex ponzi guy, the health product guy.......list goes on.....when it gets pushed so hard, I start wondering how much has to do with financial gain as opposed to my well-being. How many of you have been lying awake in an US hotel room, staring at the infomercials @ 3am? First they push a certain drug and the very next advertisement is from a law firm who will help you sue if you had been disabled by the drug that was pushed 2 years ago. That same drug 2 years ago was approved and the answer to all your problems. Have a listen at the end when they talk so fast about the side-effects......heart failure, sudden death, all other sorts of dysfunctions....I kid you not!

You mention the research and that for me is probably the biggest bone of contention. How much time has been spent on these new technology vaccines? Do we really have an idea about the long term consequences? Everything seems too rushed! Once that needle goes into your arm, it can not be reversed and as mentioned you have to sign an indemnity form! You have to admit, for a non-immuno-geneticist this might be too much to compute. Sounds like blind faith to me, maybe, I don’t know?

Regarding my initial assumption and question, I have started to notice people thinking that once vaccinated, normal life will return, this jab will fix all. I think there lies a big danger in that attitude, but it’s another subject. If I understand you correctly this vax issue can be split into 2 facets. Firstly, it will prep you for a real infection and therefore you should not be that scared of un-vaxed people as your immune system will deal with the problem swiftly. Secondly, and this is the point I missed, is that although a vaxed person can still, possibly spread the virus, the chances become less because your primed immune system has been attacking the virus from the get go.

Anyway, any input appreciated!

Double B; Are you SURE that the vaccine under debate works in the same manner as all other vaccines ? ......Sure ? Promise ?.....

For what it's worth, AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine has just been approved by the DHA. Hopefully that is another option that will be made available to us.

Landflap

Depends what yo mean by 'works'!

With the respect to the misinformation posted above, yes, all 'work' by potentiating a host immune response that targets the SAR-COV2 virus. I am sure. I promise.

Of course some achieve that work by 'working' in a different way. Some are very traditional vaccines based on inactivated virus, others use novel mRNA methods, and there are at least 2 technologies that fit somewhere in between along that spectrum. But all target the virus. I don't know of any that target the COVID-19 disease process - although that is not impossible and someone may well be working on it. Certainly immune modulation is a route for therapy.

I think you'll find that whether it's Pfizer/Sinopharm/Astra Zeneca you will probably need to sign a waiver.

Some governments have an insurance scheme with a payout should you have adverse reactions - e.g. Singapore. Someone will have to pay for this/money will come from somewhere.

​​​​​​https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...-b1765124.html

​​​​​​https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news...ation-14036592

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapo...f-the-covid-19

https://www.todayonline.com/singapor...s-side-effects

I'm not promoting Sinopharm - but just from a layman's perspective it's the more traditional inactivated virus - perhaps Analog whereas the mRNA ones are specific T-Cell - Digital. The AstraZeneca one is using a chimpanzee/gorilla virus as the vehicle of delivery. I think the UK health minister mentioned for the different strains there are variants it'll be like tweaking it as if "installing a wing mirror on your car".

The Sinopharm is probably the whole car analogy. Which is better, higher efficacy? Maybe double-barrel can espouse some of his wisdom here.

As long as any vaccine can prevent me from falling seriously ill with the symptoms, I don't really mind which one( good enough - not perfect). The serious symptoms are the stuff that kill you.

All vaccines or drugs, have side effects - kidney damage etc. Just need to weigh the risks versus benefits of taking or not taking them.

Sorry layman understanding.

14 6

I'm also a (very) amateur pilot. Although I have no idea how I found myself n the Middle East section of PPrune!

I am not sure that I do entirely understand your reluctance to accept what the experts are telling you. I could perhaps understand it if the recommendation was in the face of some trivial inconvenience, but this advice is in the face of an economy-wrecking, people-killing pandemic. When I step on a commercial aircraft, I trust that appropriate experts have ensured that it is fit to fly and that an appropriately qualified crew are sitting at the front, even though this may be the first time they have met each other or been on board this particular aircraft.

It is certainly possible (probable) that each of the vaccines will have some very rare adverse effects on some people, just like some aircraft very rarely fall out of the sky. But I do not see any way that there can be some mysterious long-term devastating consequence from some of the new technologies such as mRNA. The concept has been around for decades and we understand pretty well how it works. The other vaccines are bog standard in their methods. Personally, I would take any of the vaccines in a heartbeat if it was offered to me.

There are some interesting theoretical population level 'risks' that are a bit harder to explain. All viruses mutate very easily, and a lot of weakly immune people can select for resistant mutants. That's why it is so important to get as many people effectively vaccinated as fast as possible. If we imagine we can hide behind a wall in our own little vaccinated country, we would actually be constantly exposed to a soup of variants from outside that will eventually break through. If anything ever did, this needs global cooperation to fix.

Can the Einsteins on here please show us the data from the Sinopharm trials? Last i heard was Sinopharm refused to publish any public data on their trials. If that is not enough to make people question the safety and efficacy in this modern medical world, then i don't know what is!

double_barrel

That's a really interesting point about selection for resistance. Thank you. Wow. Scary. So this is kind of a second derivate problem. If you don't strengthen immunity in everyone simultaneously then you start selecting for resistance and the whole thing starts over again with a second need for a new vaccine and a whole new set of vaccinations against the mutation for everyone. I think what you just said was analagous to the whole lockdown thing. If you immunised everyone overnight then there would be no transmission and no selection/amplification of mutants. If you immunise half the population, the second half remains vulnerable, prone to mutation, and thus still the first half remains vulnerable, with no vaccine ready for the mutant strain. Can I ask, as a generality, whether the mechanisms invoved in vaccination produce some immunity to mutant strains ? I know there isn't a straightforward answer because mutants are unpredictable but is there any sort of normal distribution about the answer or just unpredictable?

ClassCbird

I would not trust a vaccine that could not show transparent and high quality trials data which had been examined and approved by an effective regulator. That would be the equivalent of flying with certain Nigerian low cost airlines that are not approved to operate in Europe - probably OK, but not a risk I need to take.

double_barrel

If everyone in the world stayed at home for a month, (including those who are infected) the virus would also die out. But that would require CCP levels of population management, and it ain't gonna happen. No, what is needed is a medical treatment that reduces the effect of the virus, which in turn would reduce hospitalisations/ long COVID / deaths. Sadly the much-vaunted monoclonal antibody treatment seems not to work against the new variants, so that's still away away. Vaccines actually should come later, once the illness can be treated effectively.

ClassCbird

I agree with you. The Wikipedia on BBIBP-CorV/Sinopharm reads like a Stephen King horror story, especially the Controversies section. Yes, I just googled it, but what else can we do?

rcsa

Apparently there is such a medicine, but I am not dumb enough to discuss it on this forum. Anecdotal evidence exists and court orders obtained will now allow doctors to start treatment with it. Early days, but let’s see what happens.

double_barrel

That is just the thing, over the last 12 months I have listened to numerous interviews with credible scientists, researchers and doctors warning us of the dangers and flaws associated with vaccines, especially the new ones. All the interviews started with a long list of credentials and qualifications of each speaker, so honestly, as a layman I don’t know what to believe anymore.

14 6

I strongly disagree. Treatment will never defeat it, but it will keep big pharma raking in the money. The only solution is to go after the virus not disease. That is how successful countries kept their deaths down.

From what I hear that is exactly what this medicine does, kills the virus. Enough said......

But doesn't prevent its spread! You would have to allow everyone on the planet to get infected and treated. Vaccination combined with tracking and tracing is the only way to eliminate the disease.

I know there are colossal epidemiological and biochemical differences, but I would observe that twenty years ago another virus, HIV, had an almost 100% fatality rate. Now, managed with a relatively cheap daily anti-retroviral medication, most HIV patients lead long and healthy lives, and are mostly/largely non-infectious. There is still no vaccine for HIV.

Don't shout at me - I know they are totally different beasts. But HIV medication shows that medical science can come up with a compound that drastically reduces the impact of a virus.

Vaccination, treatment, acquired immunity - they all play their part.

custardpsc

Your understanding is correct. The longer we stay unvaccinated, the more chances we have for the virus to mutate its way out of the vaccine. If the global population is only partially vaccinated, that puts immense selective pressure on the virus to develop into a strain that is "resistant" to the vaccine.

The sooner we get these vaccines, the better our chances of getting past COVID19.

custardpsc

We won't know until we see the specific mutation. Think of the virus as having a lock (spike protein), and your immune system has to find a key (antibodies). What the vaccine has done is given your immune system a head start in finding the correct key. A mutation in the virus can change any number of things. If the mutation changes the lock on the virus, the key that the vaccine delivered may become less effective if shape of the lock changes significantly. The combinations are practically endless.

14 6

This is a fair point. I'll say this though, there will always be a few scientists that will go against the grain. Sometimes, that's useful, but not usually. What you need to see is the consensus opinion of the experts in that particular field. This is a new disease, and as with all scientific endeavours, opinions change as understanding grows. So sure, one or two people may be expressing views contrary to the consensus, but usually you'll find that their views are based on poor quality data from a single study. I'm betting that the 99% are right, and the 1% are wrong. That's been proven over and over again with this pandemic (man-made virus, hydroxychloroquine, inverrectin).

14 6

To be perfectly honest, I doubt that you have seen comments like that from credible people who are aware of the state of the art. I agree that it's a potential problem that if you are directly involved in the current state-of-the-art, you tend to focus on the benefits of your pet project, but there are plenty of very knowledgable people who understand the principles but have no dog in the fight. For a start, anyone who is described only as a Dr, surgeon etc can be discounted if they stray out of straightforward clinical matters. I seem to remember a bunch of mad medics claiming that hyrdroxychloroquin was a certain cure for COVID and that we were being lied to for political reasons! That was disgraceful behaviour by people who I presume really are medics.

It is a simple fact that vaccines in general have had massive beneficial impact - they are one of the 3 or 4 most important medical developments that have transformed our lives. That really is indisputable, the anti-vax movement is criminally stupid and/or irresponsible. Sure, there are legitimate questions about details of new methods and the necessary risk/benefit equation, and we can and should be able to discuss them openly. In fact, that is exactly what the various national approval bodies attempt to do. But the noise of nonsense out there with as much credibility as the flat earthers or moon landing deniers are doing huge damage.

DB; Thanks. "Works" was the term you used. Not me.
14 6 : On side throughout. I and others here, and many others outside of this site have simply doubted the numbers & method of delivery of all the info. we have not taken a specific view but have expressed doubt. We have been subjected to much vitreol and even banned although the latter, a warning device for method of articulation rather than freedom of speech.Possibly. I remain very sceptical and very wary and more inclined to look at cold hard evidence. Not getting any of it convincing enough for me to make an action decision. But that is what we professional pilots (site aimed at us) do before we,for example, disengage, stuff the nose down, decompress and head for the nearest suitable.

I am inclined to disengage, stuff the nose down, de-distress and head for the nearest suitable bar ! Oh, NWO won't let me.

By all means do your own study and make an informed decision based on facts. Never has an introduction of vaccines received this much "noise".

For years, science has proved beyond doubt the risk/benefit arguments for or against vaccination. Sure science has stuffed up along the way but for humankind it has done tremendous good.

This time round - it's every grandma and auntie's WhatsApp/Tik Tok/YouTube Video that has muddied the field. So much so mainstream media needs to dedicate a page just to debunk the myths and present the facts. Information overload or social media has really worked against Public Health policies. Not forgetting some World Leaders, if you call them that piling on to the misinformation - only takes a minute to do a deep cleansing.

Influencers or anyone with a voice doing a disservice whilst publishing half baked facts and distorting the facts to fit a narrative. Prostate surgeons sending viral tweets how the number of excess deaths are a mistake.

National pride working at finger pointing, trumpet sounding rather than working together to solve this for humanity.

National pride preventing acceptance of vaccines from an "enemy state" because of border disputes.

It would certainly be embarrassing to LAND ASAP based on half investigated rumour about "smoke" in the cabin.

Something has been bothering me about you and I think you have just showed your hand.