aussiefarmer
:D
I appreciate that not everyone can be an immunologist, but to take a stance based on the word of somebody on YouTube who has no background whatsoever in the field is mind boggling in its stupidity.

I don't understand what all the fuss is about regarding vaccines.

Some people will get the vaccine and die. I'm told that people do die occasionally from lots of different vaccines very year. A small number. Some also react badly to common medications. Some people simply drop dead for no biological reason who are otherwise fit and healthy.

The irony of the argument was illustrated by a neighbor recently. Picture this, a male, early 50's, weight 140+kg, a pack a day smoker, drinks massively, partakes in waccy tobaccy daily ( other substances), diet consists of takeaway food and nothing else, never exercises. Won't get the vaccine because he is "worried about it's effect my health".

I think people are getting too caught up in this saga and a little perspective is required.

The purpose of the thread was not to create a vax versus anti vax debate but rather to highlight the possibility that some vaccines may not be compatible with some flying licences. I have yet to encounter a colleague that refuses to be vaccinated but I have encountered many that are wary about vaccines which are not recognised in their own home country and have elements of their development and testing shrouded in secrecy.

Honest question: is there any current vaccine (not covid) that renders your class 1 invalid anywhere in the world?

aussiefarmer

In the past, yes, A certain Europe wide H1N1 2009 Swine Flu vaccine did affect some people with side effect of Narcolepsy. That stops operation of most machinery.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/co...lepsy-flu.html

double_barrel

Preventative treatment can affect spread. For example inexpensive Ivermectin has been used widely as a prophylacticand for treatment outside of Western nations to good effect:

https://swprs.org/who-preliminary-re...effectiveness/

Immunity can be increased by vaccines but also naturally as we are seeing in Swedish population (particularly Stockholm). In Spring 2020 they had 500 "cases" (RT PCR positives) per day, now around 7000. However mortality rate is not worse - if anything less than the previous disaster in the care homes (a la NYC, UK, Italy). Anti body testing has revealed increase from 15% in Spring to 40% Jan2021.

https://www.folkhalsomyndigheten.se/...-for-covid-19/

https://news.ki.se/immunity-to-covid...sts-have-shown

This is in part due to following 2019 WHO pandemic guidelines instead of complete national lockdowns and masking up healthy. There is evidence that Lockdowns reduce immunity (lowering Vitamin D and exercise for example) and increase spread in confined spaces - compare Peru with Brazil or South Dakota with N Dakota and EuroMOMO data for EU and UK.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13484

On vaccine safety, main players Phase 3 trials have been published:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.105...KweLxY.twitter

Whilst that should reassure many, they have been released under emergency regulation not the normal FDA like process. Some will not report on their trials until 2023.

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/04...-the-raw-data/

We would do well to remember most folk who have concerns about novel vaccines are NOT Anti-vax, Flat_Earthers, or climate change deniers. Neither do they hold extreme views. They are just concerned human beings who took a Yellow Fever shot every 10 years (now once for life https://www.who.int/ith/updates/20160727/en/) , Flu jabs every year. They seek transparency in a world that is more confusing that the "goode olde days" of the Cold War but see the dumbing down in the media and polarisation of society, the destruction of jobs and economy, the massive debts from response to this crisis as bad for everybody, especially the future for the least physically affected by SARS-CoV2, their kids.

Meanwhile, the WHO has recommended against forced Vaccine Passports: https://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes...-280701-ab/en/

Ivermectin might prevent Covid Mortality - the verdict is not resounding yet. Great for the general population, but for an aviator to have severe disease/symptoms and get Ivermectin and survive with long term damage to lungs and heart would probably cause a loss of license. Could you risk that?

As for masking, lockdown or not, the following chart paints a grim picture of excess mortality. True there could well have been other reasons for the excess deaths in 2020 - just run the same chart with countries that have strict masking, border closures and stricter measures(NZ, ROK, Taiwan) and do a comparison. You can draw some conclusions. Just a comparison of Sweden and other Nordic countries of similar population but applied other measures lockdowns etc.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....6e561221c1.png

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/e...E&region=World

First spike could well have been all the care home deaths but the 2nd end of year spike, unless they repeated their mistakes. You can paint a similar picture for Italy as well - first spike the terrible toll from Lombardy but another spike at the end of the year, similar in the USA, Belgium, Netherlands, England and Wales. Czech Republic went for a strict masking policy at the beginning of the pandemic - cases were kept low then the summer brought about relaxed masking , the famous party on the Charles Bridge to celebrate - populist government yielding to unmask and you can see the spike at the end of the year.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....31daa76d26.png

Vaccinate not because of a particular brand etc. Just use what is available as there's a shortage. Might not be the best but good enough. AstraZeneca is available as well now in Dubai but there won't be enough.

I would love my colleagues who have "left the business" to return. Possibly the quickest way out of this pandemic and for Aviation to revive is for herd immunity through vaccination. Other means may be the perfect solution but will probably result in prolonging job losses, more lockdowns, half vaccinated, more strains to emerge, extended damage to economies, debts - and indeed future of our kids as well.

This is exactly what I am talking about!

Painful. I'm doing my best but to stick with it, so far it's jumbled mix of fragments of very well known stuff spun to make him sound clever and 'subversive'. My favourite quote so far "Dr Fauci won't talk about interferon" !

He also claims to have invented email and a magical system for understanding biological interaction which seems to be bog standard, and very limited, text mining.

And the live chat shows no-one paying any attention to what he is actually saying.

Good grief, the 1st question he gets is "We know the full genome. How it is regulated via the elite one is still becoming clear" To which he replies "exactly" and then rabbits on with trivial and confused truisms as if they are great revelations. I think this is wicked stuff.

Next question "Can the virus through the vaccine be passed from human to human". He has been talking about mRNA vaccines. The answer is absolutely NO for mRNA vaccines!! He has just tried to explain that! But instead of answering this question, he blithers on saying we pass vaccines between ourselves all the time, and throws confused nonsense. This is really, really wicked.

Next Q about "vax shedding"! Good grief! That is exactly the problem with the old vaccines he said were great, it is impossible with mRNA vaccines. Does he say that ? No. He blithers on about it being a concern and scientists keeping it a secret.

OK, his presentation was mostly confused and trite, the way he is working the questions to appear to support nonsense is deeply troubling.

Whatever!

This is supposed to be a guy with 4 degrees from MIT and you are some anonymous bug-specialist lurking around on a pilot rumour site........can you see my dilemma?

Everyone these days are some kind of a vaccine expert with all sorts of degrees and differing opinions.......and me, pilot........I am sitting on the sideline, head going left and right like I am watching a tennis match........and that is my big problem with this whole lot!

So give me a specific to drill down into?

How about the questions on "vax shedding" or "Can the virus through the vaccine be passed from human to human".

Look at his answer to those questions. Then look at what he actually says when he is explaining mRNA vaccines in the body of his presentation. Now tel me there is not a complete, 180 degree discrepancy between the facts as HE himself portrays them, and the way he responds to those questions.

And why should I believe your explanation as opposed to his? By the way, it’s not only Shiva, there are many others.

What I suggest you do, is to contact MIT and report him for spreading fake news whilst bragging about his 4 degrees. Good grief, I thought us pilots can talk crap by using big words and sounding all clever, but you people take the cake.

Don't believe my explanation. Believe his. He is more-or-less correct when he describes how mRNA vaccines work and the advantages they have over the old fashioned vaccines based on live, attenuated virus. He explains that no whole virus is used. He explains that mRNA is taken up by ribosomes which manufacture antigen. He says there is no actual virus associated with the mRNA vaccine. Therefore "vax shedding" is completely impossible with mRNA vaccines. He obviously knows that. Why does he not say that? I suspect because he is focused on winding-up a very specific audience.


BTW. There have been some tragic deaths caused by "vax shedding" from the polio vaccination. The polio vaccine has made a fantastic contribution to human health and we are on the brink of completely eliminating the disease through vaccination, but the risks are not quite zero. mRNA vaccines eliminate that category of risks.

Suggest if there is so much doubt about the mRNA vaccine, stick to the traditional weakened/attenuated type of vaccine. Edward Jenner used it and the technology is still being used.

I love his analogy about playing in dirt when he was young - perhaps these guys should go work at the morgue or ICU without PPE and "roll around" in the dirt. They sure could need some helping hands.

Speak to your colleagues, some have caught COVID-19 - the ones who've had more than mild symptoms. Ask them how it was. There are more out there these days.

Good plan. And I suggest that you fliers stick to traditional navigation with sextant and dead reckoning. Ernest Gann used it, and the technology is still being used.

Vaccines based on live virus carry a particular set of risks that mRNA (and other) vaccines completely eliminate. Sure they MAY introduce other risks, like modern nav systems raise the risk of collision as everyone flies the same perfect line between two points. But on the whole, I will take the overall improved performance.

I'm pretty convinced about the safety, risks versus benefits. I'll take whatever is available.

We are indeed fortunate here to get the vaccine FREE. You can even choose which particular type if you're willing to wait it out.

Lot's of frontliners working in ICU's dealing with this dreaded disease don't even have that privilege.

If you have a particular license and your CAA has prohibited X brand/type of vaccine then you don't have a choice I suppose. Otherwise for the rest of us it's a no brainer.

I took the first one available to me which happened to be Sinopharm and in 6-8 months time I can get a booster from one of the other, hopefully either Moderna or Pfizer and get the added benefit of them.

How can you or I be sure this guy is a fake? Aren’t these nutty scientists supposed to be rambling on about something without making sense? (joke)

MIT should come out and discredit him, after all he is bringing their good reputation into doubt if he is faking it like you suggest.

I think you should follow your own good advice and talk about aviation rather than calling out fakers in a field you have no knowledge of.

You could have studied at Harvard and still be wrong. I don’t understand your point.

There’s always someone in every discipline that goes against the general consensus. There are scientists that think climate change is not real. That does not mean they are right.

There are very experienced pilots licensed by EASA who think that flying a twin with one engine out for 3 hrs over continental europe is acceptable. That doesn’t mean they were right.

Scientific studies are peer-reviewed and have to be verifiable by others to be considered valid or insightful. That’s what gives science credibility, not which university the scientist carried his studies at.

aussiefarmer

My point is quite simple and you have given it in your own last paragraph. This guy should be peer reviewed by for instance other MIT qualified scientists. In my view, nobody on PPRUNE is in a position to do that. As I have said before, it is not just him, there are many doctors and scientists voicing their concerns and I as a layman have difficulty in knowing what to believe.

A point that stands out to me is that all of them agree on the complexity of the human immune system. Nobody at this stage really have an idea what the long term effects of the new mRNA vaccines will be. It reminds me of the documentary I watched on the nuclear testing in the Pacific and how shocked the scientists were when the thing they triggered, yielded a vastly greater boom than expected. I get the impression that these vaccines were rushed through and it is evident today just by reading the mainstream media. Problems with supply, distribution, efficacy etc.

So where does this leave us? On the one hand, we have doctors and scientists warning us to think carefully about getting vaccinated and on the other side companies pushing us very hard to get the jab. What is the age old saying? Follow the money maybe?

About your one engine over continental Europe analogy.......yes, overflying a perfectly suitable airport with only one engine remaining is not wise, but should Europe be fogged in/snowed in/45 knot cross wind.....and you are in a machine with a 207 min capability, maybe it is not such a bad idea to go look for somewhere better to land? There are always many more considerations.

Neektu

No disrespect intended, but you watching the video to the end and making notes does not really help me.

Anyway, I think I have said enough now, back to aviation it is 👍🏻

I don't think there are many genuine doctors and scientists voicing their concerns. And, to be honest, you as an intelligent layman should not have difficulty in this particular case. It seems very clear that he is sewing confusion and misinformation, just look at the glaring internal inconsistencies in that video, some of which I have flagged. You don't need to know anything except what he tells you, just critically examine the content.

It happened, and there wasn't a fog/snow/crosswind problem! Look up the Smartwings 737 incident in August 2019! And no, the whole of Europe will not be out due to weather at the same time so that's a pretty daft statement!

146; I have to applaud your views. Very balanced and seeking justification before decision. Just what we Prof pilots were selected for, trained for and checked on, continuously throughout our careers. You are far from alone in taking a step back & considering a wider view. The daily dross I am fed with from so-called Governments & 'experts' is wholly unconvincing & when I hear of Government Ministers handing out multi millions of tax-payers money to fellow ex-pub landlord mates (just for starters) leaves me very unsympathetic to the 'no brainers' who who just line up, roll up the sleeve and take the jab because big bro said so .

Sorry Emma. I know you did not want to promote a vax/no vax debate, so I'll stop myself there. I just wanted to add support to 146 who sounds very cool -headed indeed.

Great post Marcellus. I think LF was taking a poke at a DM article where the headline grab was "No jab, No job...it's a no brainer " from a hitherto respected columnist who turned around from balanced reporting to suggesting that he would crawl on his "naked belly" to get the jab in order to restore his rights to get back to the pub ! Ok, I hear you all say " it's the DM for C s sake."..

The Queen would say what she said.............wouldn't she (?)...........Journalistic no brainer there too.

Delighted that you take an informed view and decide.. Many of us are doing the same. We resist the patronising , head-line grabbing dross that faces us every day and give a Churchillian salute to the equally mindless Bully Boys who threaten with vitreol & intended violence if we meet in the street ! I Cheer the right and freedom to decide for ourselves. I Totally respect your views and rights. I Simply ask for similar balance.

Marcellus ; Your post that GM was referring to has disappeared. Makes his post above look a bit odd.

GM tells me on our week-end call that he has now been denied, even a view of Jetblast having previously been warned off to stay away from the Corona Virus thread of the same forum .

Too many toes stepped on methinks.

Is there any CAA that has restricted any of the vaccines?

The FAA appears at this stage to only permit licence holders to take either Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna or Johnson & Johnson.

Landflap - No apology needed whatsoever. :ok:

All the best fellas. You're all intelligent individuals.

No need for me to rehash articles available on public domain. Too much diarrhoea.

Just don't take too long to decide. Cheers.

Really sad reading of the situation in the Czech Republic. Early success with masks etc. all gone to waste...this quote just sums up some of the discussions going on:

The Czech media, he said, has contributed to some of the confusion earlier in the pandemic. "There's often this logic of 'for and against.' So if you have a guest who says face masks are useful, let's also have a guest who says they are not. And if you have a guest who says coronavirus is dangerous, you also need to invite someone who says it's not dangerous and most people are fine."
This has distorted reality, Kulveit believes. "Of course there are debates going on in the expert circles, but if you look at the field of epidemiology, some 95% of experts agree on the consensus and then you have perhaps 5% who dissent, but in the media, this is presented as 50:50, and then on social media, it could become 20 - 80 " he added.

Sorry - perhaps not relevant to the topic.

Well duh. Who'd have thought the US aviation regulator would approve the only vaccines that are approved by the US drug regulator.

Case in point as to why this topic may not be as straight forward as some may think, hence airing it in the first place.

Whilst the FAA may not approve non US vaccines that does not auto imply an FAA licence problem. It may simply mean that you need a dose of the US approved vaccine (in addition to whatever you may have taken in DXB) before exercising the privileges of, in this case, an FAA licence.

I stand to be corrected , it appears that the only restrictions are country based (48-72 hrs) . An FAA licence holder working for EK does not need to apply FAA restrictions only UAE restriction , which are similar anyways . As more vaccines become approved by the country the CAA of that country will approve . Hence no real implications to any vaccines.

Are there any blood exams out there that can detect what kind of vaccine is in your system? If your CAA back home is such a bully, why do you have to inform them? FFS just take any vaccine available and get yourself a temporary shelter for six months or so until more options accepted in your home country are available if this is the case!

With regards to this topic, there seems to be a number of known unknowns never mind the unknown unknowns that the past year has often generated. With there being little to no job security throughout the ME, it makes sense to try and ensure that your credentials are in order, should the worst happen. Blood tests may not even be required to verify what vaccine you had if personal vaccine data is held electronically and is made accessible to multiple countries and potentially to multiple organisations as well. As aircrew, it would be hard to avoid having to participate in such a system. Despite the concerns regarding personal data protection, it seems that these are being overshadowed in Europe at least by the desire to open up borders. However it still remains to be seen how this will develop.

It’s also not outside the realms of reality that certain counties will require vaccination in lieu of any quarantine period but specific vaccines will only be accepted. The Cypriots have pledged to open their borders for tourists from May but vaccines that are approved by the EMA will only be accepted. Given how cautious Oz and NZ have been throughout the pandemic then I wouldn't be surprised if they only recognise selected vaccines. The TGA in Oz have already remarked to the press that vaccine trial data from China and Russia is rather limited. Will we see Aussies and Kiwis with the ‘wrong’ vaccine still having to sit in a hotel for close for two weeks?

I am sure these potential hurdles will fade into insignificance over time, as the effectiveness of each vaccine becomes apparent. Vaccines from China and Russia may prove to be very effective but determining that will take time to establish. Until that point is reached, I suspect not every country will open its doors to travellers with just any vaccine.

Emma, I might be wrong but it appeared to me that the Cyps have opened up for UK tourists as opposed to "all". Saw the Minister's broadcast yesterday. Very specific vaccines will only be accepted. I noted also that while the door has been opened to the Brits as of 1st of May, the UK still will not prevent non-essential travel until, possibly, 16 May. In addition, severe restriction of movement in Cyprus remains until at least March 16. I was stopped twice, yesterday and asked for my Citizen/PR declaration authorising my three hour "essential" movement These too would have to be eased in order to let in the Brits on the Ist May who are not allowed to leave the Uk until the MAY 16 anyway ! All quite farcical . Cops were cute chics who would not accept that I was over 65......made my day......

From the esteemed medical journal, Newsweek no less! If it were so serious the Danish and Icelandic authorities would have cited particular events pertaining to said blood clots. Nothing from either.