Vortex your comments are troubling on a multitude of levels. The one about killing yourself for your job is most disturbing. I guess you are happy to be flying a big airplane. Big Shinny Jet Syndrome comes to mind. Have a big watch and something else small do you?
Your comparison of Turkish to Emirates if ironic. How many pilots are trying to go to Turkey vs how many are trying to come to Emirates? I know Turkish is not having trouble getting pilots. On every level EK is having trouble getting pilots.
On the recent advert for A-330 DECs Emirates had to cancel for lack of interest. Did this shock anyone in the Bouncy Castle? Probably not since their heads are so far up their ass they haven't seen the light of day for years. So what this means is that any widebody pilot would rather stay at their current job rather than come to Dubai and work for Emirates. Most probably since our pay is so sub-standard and the conditions ****e.
If our pay is so great as you proudly state why are we having so much trouble getting AND keeping pilots? I'll tell you why, because we don't pay Industry Standard pay and don't offer ANY work rules. What are you comparing us to when you say our pay is so great? I know most 777 pilots make more than us.
Congratulations you are flying a big airplane. Now if only you can get the pay and treatment to go along with it.

Hope we're not heading for another German Wings situation when reality kicks in and this guy finally wakes up.

Three Certain Things in Life.
 

First things first. I never said that I would kill myself for my job, what I said was that if the job kills me then so be it. The two are entirely different. Does a Deep Sea Diver not know what he is doing to his body and accepting that the job is dangerous and costly in human terms but take the risk and the money. why?

Does an astronaut or a test pilot not do the same? Why?

Why is it that so many of you are so unwilling to accept your own a) mortality and b) worth.

My viewpoint is not one of wanting, seeking or even being happy with the prospect of the inevitable but the only certainties in life other than taxes are a good night out if you get a nurse drunk.

My family may want time with me but if the choice is time with me versus school fees/mortgage being paid I know which they will remember when everyone else has a life and they are working two jobs because I wanted an extra cuddle. How selfish would that be. I want more time with them, but there are many things I want. Want doesn't get!

It was a simple thing that I and many accepted as part of military service. Not every one makes it and if they do there is often no rhyme or reason as to their point of dispatch to the never after.

I wish to live a long and happy life, seeing my family flourish and prosper. I want to see grandchildren and the generation I am rearing reaping the success of my hard work. However I chose to get married and chose to have children. They didn't ask to be born. I want their lives to not be as hard as mine. I want them to enjoy not having to work like I have, do and will do so that their offspring also enjoy what I likely will not get the opportunity to do so.

It's called sacrifice! Your lack of faith in wanting to do the right thing for the right value is so jaded from constant cynicsm that you believe that nobody can be altruistic without being mad.

Shame on you. I don't think that I have nothing to offer society and certainly don't think I have nothing to offer aviation. In fact I think quite the reverse I enjoy work. Some of us enjoy it so much that that is all we need.

Some people need a Lamborghini, a Ferrari or a Bugatti. There are happy bush pilots out there and unhappy chief pilots in flag carriers. I personally think that being a TRE is more valuable than the extra pay as being able to pass your skills, passion, dedication and enthusiasm on is more rewarding to me than money.

I don't fear death because I have spent enough time close enough to it to see it for what it is. Fearing your own death is the greatest waste of time you could ever embark on. Its a game you know you cannot win! That is not the same as having nothing to live for! I love my family, I love flying and I am grateful to be able to continue to have a family and fly for a living.

Congoman & Snakeman you are simply the height of rudeness. Do not presume to tell me or anyone else how reality really is. Why is it that you are so enlightened and I am wrong. Do I say anything that isn't true. Are you not statisically likely to die at some point! You don't have to share my view on life but don't you dare pretend you have the ability to introspect so greatly that you feel the god given right to question the sanity of someone who sees a life of service to thier family and their profession.

People like you are the reason that we have so many managers and not enough leaders in our profession. This isn't just a job, it's a calling to many pilots. Many of us love our jobs and the fact that they pay me do my passion and the thing that I love in life is actually a brucey bonus. We just aren't that badly paid! For all this constant whining and whinging.

As for the bit young comment. If not that far of 50 is a bit young then errrm yep. Chances are though that I was at war somewhere whilst you were hanging your graduation robes up so how's about you get over the fact that this isn't naivety it's worse than that in fact it's your worst nightmare. A pilot who is happy being a pilot and thinks he isnt that badly paid by being in the top 2% of all earners in the UK.

"I don't care if I die"
 

Vortex, think hard and retract your damnable statement. And seek help immediately.

In my family's time at EK I came to learn a few things about attitudes in Dubai. There were/are many that are happy enough to have the job. As long as they had the 4x4 in the driveway, a maid in the quarters and a steak on their BBQ, life was/is good. Vortex is this exact specimen. Perfect for the airline but not exactly super intelligent. Blinders on. I could never relate to someone who could not see through the absolute hypocrisy and corruption of, not just the airline, but the entire city. We left. Best thing we ever did. There are other options. You just have to weigh what your priorities are. Getting paid is nice but isn't the yardstick to which I could measure my quality of life - it's a given when you are working. Clean air, living where I choose, normal friends and proper community plus not flying my bag off so I am a sack of **** on my days off means more to me than the so called "tax-free" pay cheque that Vortex so keenly covets.
I totally respect anyone that would walk after being dicked around by the minions in accommodation. Yes Istanbul is a city with real people and not a bull**** caste system where the locals reside on top and do sweet eff all. EK was built on a pretty awesome vision and an enviable location globally. The visionaries have been slowly leaving for awhile and you know who is left…..the glory days are so well and truly over. Keep your eyes open and your loyalties in check for that 'given' that is your paycheque. May not always be so.

All I will say Vortex...you have a very different outlook on life.

I sincerely hope it's a wind up......

Vortex,

Your reference to dying is quite troublesome. You may need help on a professional level - seriously.

After almost 30 years in this business, I (as do many) do not agree with your sentiments, you'll always fit into your income bracket.

Damn scary, if you ask me. PTSD perhaps? Seriously.

I actually understand your words. Fear of death is man's worst enemy - people do much evil out of that fear. Out of any fear, really, but fear of death is the basis of every other fear. And (look! I've started my sentence with "and"!:}) you can't do anything to prevent it, so why not just relax, take care of yourself, your family and the society as much as you can, right? We think in a similar way and I am not worried for your mental health. :) I have couple of problems with your comment, though:

True. Many people don't understand this concept. We are selfish by our very nature.

But.

I don't see your altruism. I see your love for your family. That's normal. But I don't see what you do to improve society on a greater level. That is what altruism is, right?

Company abuses people by violating many human and labour rights, which are society's wisest and most altruistic invention (they are one light spot among many stupid things that humanity did). By complying with their wrongdoings you silently give them an approval to continue with it - to abuse more and more people. And even that is fine. You have a choice to comply, because they are more powerful than you and you can't survive without them (Serbs learnt it in a harder way:)) and you have a choice not to. Both of them are fine (opinions on this may vary:)).

And (again!:}) you can think in the way you think, there is nothing wrong with you, by my opinion. On the contrary. I just don't see the point in your debating here. You have chosen your life style, you have your values. Why are you not peaceful with them? Why coming here and explaining yourself? Why involving altruism (when there is no one, at least you didn't say in what way you are an altruist)?

No one is accusing you for complying with company standards, so why you feel the need to accuse those who don't? In your position I would just be happy. :)

He said, she said... Who cares?
One thing I observed in my time in the desert was the seemingly endless capacity of many pilots to talk complete rubbish to justify their own positions and opinions. It doesn't matter what anybody thinks about what's going on at Emirates. What matters is what you do about it. Complaining about it doesn't help, and I do see where Vortex is coming from as there are many people who absolutely do not subscribe to the narrative that is portrayed on PPRUNE.
I left partly because I can only see the environment becoming worse at EK for pilots, not better. If am honest though, at least 50% of the motivating force was the endless whining and bitching that I was forced to listen to from my colleagues which made going to work a major PITA. I flew with plenty of people who seem to have, at best, anger management issues, and they were all universally negative people that had no concept of their good fortune in life.
I think I'm going to stop reading this now: like SOPS, I have the dogs to walk.

Geez, if vortex thought quitting EK because of hellish accommodation was bad, what does he think of THIS tender muffin, whose main motivation to quit was people who complain? (Seriously? awww.....)

It seems to me that if vortex takes it as a weird point of macho/masochistic/fatalistic pride that his job might kill him, then he must have an even GREATER deal of respect of people who manage to support their families without having to bend over and take it the way he seems to positively relish.

Or is suffering for the privilege of providing part of the fetish? I'm confused.

What a strange and disturbing thread.

I think you've misunderstood my point. I don't find it upsetting/depressing/offensive or whatever to listen to people complain. I feel genuinely bad for people who haven't identified how amazing life is meant to be. Where is the enjoyment in listening to someone whine incessantly for nine hours about "the chemicals the company has put in the mineral water" etc etc (I'm not making that up)? Once you accept that there is little to be gained from spouting endless negativity (and in fact, much to lose) life becomes a hundred times more pleasant.
There's only one action you can take at Emirates that is going to make a difference: grow a pair of balls and resign. Otherwise: I'd suggest not making yourself miserable over it. Out.

Actually I don't disagree with you, the atmosphere at EK IS completely toxic - it's kind of the theme in the Middle East forums these days, which you've helped underscore. I guess my point was if you allowed the negativity to overcome your "identification of how amazing life is meant to be", how do you portray that as anything other than capitulation?

If you really think that the source of the massive discontent is mainly trivialities such as you mention, you must have resigned quite some time ago. Of course all companies have their handful of usual suspects whinging about the most banal issues, but the issues at stake here are much more profound and widespread.

I mean, if harry the cod becoming disenchanted doesn't scream End Of Days, what does?

outaspace, well done!!!

I read your post in detail and you actually "hit the nail on the head".

I didn't read anything in-between because you will get all sorts of people who end up off topic, but well done, you got it right .:ok:

The atmosphere is toxic......and now the mineral water is toxic as well?:E

Serve to Lead
 

Well LR3 I think that is where you and I differ. However I see my differing as just that. You have your opinion and I have mine!

So no I'm afraid. It is isn't a wind up. You simply seem to think that time spent with your family is what they appreciate. Well personally I remember my father choosing to take jobs that he preferred over jobs that he should have taken that would have given him and the whole family financial security for life.

Guess what I remember thinking, when I run my family, I will never do that. Then he was a burden on me because of his selfish choices.

Both my wife and I have lost parents who left the family in dire situations financially. My wife's greatest fear is that our children are not secure financially. It is mine too.

So sorry if you 'like/want/need' time with your family OVER providing. That is your choice of path. Mine is duty, service and doing the job over providing for them. MY needs to spend time or even their needs are always 2nd.

After over 20 yrs in the business. I see people pretend to be happy on what they earn, you call that getting by on what you earn. I see people get by and say oh its ok we'll fit into this income bracket. That works fine until your children have to go to some god awful school and have thier entire futures limited by thier parents need as opposed to thier abilities!

It is not a case of not caring about me. It is about caring about me WHEN they are sorted. It really isnt that complicated. Just because you think you are important doesnt mean you are!

Had it occured to you that perhaps you are the ones trolling/saying your own opinion! It isn't worrying at all!

Two above said they worried about me, I am the one who runs back into a burning aircraft because doing the right thing is more important than me. I am the one who will fght for you and me to the end and who will do it right regardless of the cost to me. I'd rather fly with that than you out there who think you are important. You see I'll come back for you regardless of the cost to me as death and danger are what I'm paid for. You are the ones who do not seem to undertand your duty not me!!

After reading above ...the only thing that comes to mind is:

1-800-dial-a-psych

f.

Thank you Nikita in public and to the 17 so far who PMd me to support my view.

Nikita first. My altruism is that I give back to the aviation community regardless. I just enjoy it! So junior pilots benefit and some hopefully take my enthusiasm as my legacy. Greater love hath no man......

Nolimit I don't relish. I accept as a necessary evil. Again the two differ substantially!

Nikita I dont accept the companys abuse I simply fight the batttles I can. If / when place in a position to change it. I shall and will. Not for me but for my brothers in arms.

Im rxplaing only as a medium for others. Not to recruit or engender purely as I love aviation and this is a public forum. I am opening ip my view for debate not because I doubt it or neeed validation because it needed debating in this forum and I like to give the wannabees and newbies another viewpoint.

Capitulation does not equal agreement! I just provide and they agree or not.

Flion you should call them!
 

Yes flion you should! Be aus you can't believe that anyone other than you has another view.

"I am not comfortable with your view that only one viewpoint can exist on a pilots forum!"

Given the fact that you like to be an altruist, this is not a particularly good idea. What if somebody reads your point of view, accepts the contract with EK, comes to Dubai and starts to feel depressed, tired, abused and trapped?

It's always better and more altruistic to warn people on objective dangers and then let them choose than to just impose your subject point of view without telling them what they can expect in terms of working conditions and management treatment, don't you think?:)

Death and danger is what you are paid for...seriously???????

I thiought avoiding death and danger is what you are paid for.

If you are really a TRE, I seriously hope you are noy telling new ( or for that matter any) trainees....'Death and danger is what we are paid for son '

You are an airline pilot for goodness sake...not 007.

:}

You see, Vortex, thanking me in public "for supporting you" is a pure emotional manipulation because I didn't "support" you (support in what?? why do you need a support? are you fighting against something? did you present a point of view different than extremely egocentric one - "I have to feed my family"?), I just made it clear that I understood some of your statements which others found disturbing.:)

Vortex,

If anything you've said it's true you should be trying to get a job at Hainan, living in China and making 21.5k per month. If you aren't actively pursuing that then all you've said is bs.

Vortex,

Just to confirm..... because you seem to be quite 'troll like' in your clever avoidance of correcting the incorrect assumptions made by others in this forum..

Are you an EK pilot?

Are you Right or Left seat?

B

No, no..wait a second...
All the talk of death, destruction, self sacrifice, coming back to rescue people..
Are you a fireman, Vortex?

Vortex, you are a typical example of the Helsinki Syndrome :


Life has more to offer than death

Get help!

Boww.. I believe he is Fly Dubai . Capt

Why did Francesco Schettino get 16yrs again?
 

Boww - I'm not avoiding anything. You ask me a question and it fits the bounds of the forum then I'll happily answer it. What Stone cold said is correct.

Glo - due diligence! Read what I have actually said not what you think I said. Money and family security are not a perceived benefit they are very real and tangible benefits.

MosE - That is not as far away a possibilty as you may think. It is one of the options I am looking at.

Nikita - Not emotion. I don't do those much. Just fact. How can wanting to feed your family at whatever cost to yourelf be egocentric? Surely it is the opposite.
Re the newbies. If one joins and if one feels depressed, tired, trapped, abused then they either overcome their environemtn and become stronger, remove themselves from the environ if unable to overcome or inevitably they will break. Isn't that just basic stress management?

Sink or swim basically. Life doesn't care if you can handle it or feel it is fair. Results are results, cash is cash and talking the talk is nice but we all know that walking the walk is more important.

Snake man - why don't you ask your wife

SOPs - Yes of course death and danger are PART of what we are paid for. It is. What is the cabin crews primary role is it getting em out in 90 secs or tea and coffee. I remember officers who were at the academy with me who didn't get that they were simply there as the motto says to 'Serve to lead'

Doctors try to save life but accept tha patients die. Lawyers try and win cases but loose some. Teachers try and teach their students but do not always succeed. Pilots avoid death and danger by good application of thier skills drills and your name! However when things go wrong and Murphy's law says statisitcally that they will you have to choose. So you sign up for it but you are expected to do your duty if it comes to it.

Unless you are an Italian Ships Captain that is!

I also never said I was a TRE, not there yet. I said being one is more valuable than material things to me. I was trying to explain my value scale to further help those who canot fully see the my viewpoint. Doesn't mean they have to agree just understand what I am saying and choose to digest or ignore.

This is after all a forum where we should be able to respectfully state our opinions. Unless you are snake man of course.

Snake man you trying to engage in a battle of wits is reminiscent of taking a bayonet to a tank battle you are not suitably equipped.

Ah, there is a kind of altruism which doesn't involve love? :} Ok.

Simple. It's your family and you benefit from it.

It's an awful position to consciously put one human being in. Are you sure you are an altruist? :)

Thank you Vortex for highlighting the importance of choices and the consequences those choices bring forth. I for one respect your choice of placing your career above everything. :cool:

I mean it in a good way. :ok:

Vortex

Most, if not all of us, have made sacrifices to help our families live a better life. We witness the extreme side of that argument every day when we see Indian/Bangladeshi men working 12 hour days, 6 days a week in 40 degree plus heat for $200 a month. How they manage to send home half of that to feed their families is a minor miracle but a miracle their families are no doubt grateful for. We are, whether we like it or not, merely doing the same thing, only considerably higher up the food chain. Our salaries, despite what some would like to portray on these forums, is in fact bloody good.

However, while I accept your desire to provide a high standard of support to those around you, just ask yourself one question. If you drop dead tomorrow from your continuous hard work, who will be there to shed a tear over your coffin as it's lowered into the Earth. Not your bosses and certainly not their bosses. Your demise will have lasted a mere few seconds in their thoughts as they continue to entertain clients and Russian girls every weekend on that huge yacht you often see moored out from the Marina. The same yacht and lifestyle you helped provide for while your own family is left devastated.

Whilst your widow may well thank you for the insurance payout, your children will certainly not. Don't look back in 20 years from now and regret missing the one and only opportunity you have to be with the most valuable asset in your life. Them.

Money provides material wealth. Health and happiness provide a wealth that is priceless.

'The clock of life is wound but once
And no man has the power
To tell just when that clock will stop
At late or early hour.

Now is the only time we have
So live, love and toil with will
Place no faith in tomorrow
For the clock may then be still!'

Harry

Very wise words, and they are so true....

All the money in the world cannot replace the smile of your children when you come home from a long trip..

Enjoy life, it's the only one we have

Damn nice post, Harry. :ok:

Harry very wise words. Unfortunately there is a part of this category that seems perfectly fitted to be screwed and taken away the best part of their life in exchange for simple monetary benefit. I would call it a background or cultural deficit . It makes people easy prays as they have no other values. They normally understand when is too late...

Simple Maslow Let's Revisit It
 

Those of you posting platitudes to Harry's post. Miss the point. You make it seem like you can have both! I mostly agree with Harry's sentiment.

No one is saying they don't want to see their children's smiles. No one doesn't want to see their family. It is simply that IF AND ONLY IF you have to choose between having ONE or the other....


Then the choice HAS to be money IMHO as all the love, smiles and hugs in the world will not suffice when you parents have sent you to a rubbish school, and you are at Scunthorpe Polytechnic reading Underwaterbasketweavology.

WANT = Something that you have when the basics have been covered
NEED = The basics

Look up Maslow!

No one is saying not to spend time, love , nurture, family, etc, etc it is simply the case that I am saying it is higher up the pyramid than cold hard cash and to that end it is more important.

furbpilot's implication is that obviously myself and anyone who thinks like me is incorrect and will see the error of our ways later in life. How arrogant is that!!!

If he had said, 'Well I see his point and I disagree.' Then I could give him some leeway but like I said before anyone who would rather work for THY and live in IST than DXB is never going to be the sort of person reasonable enough to admit that this is a big arse planet and guess what we are all different in our wants and needs.

Otherwise everyone you know would go skiing and no one would go climbing or everyone would aspire to be a pilot or want the same wife. They don't. SO newsflash some people work 3 jobs to send their kids to private schools some who are millionaires send their kids to the local state school.

I would want to be as large a part of my family's life as possible but that is a very distant 2nd want to giving them the correct start in life, the things that they need and the money that they need to get there.

I don't come first. It really isn't that hard a concept. That is unless you have no sense of duty and think that your needs are more important than your family's real needs not wants.

Would you also go into debt to achieve this?

I think Harry was implying that BALANCE is important. I want an income to support my family and I want to be there WITH them as well.

So I understand both Vortex's point and Harry's argument.

There is a spectrum that ranges from all work/no life or time to no work/all time and each person and family has a different point on that line that is acceptable and appropriate.

The problem with EK, in mine and many others peoples opinion, is that EK has 'stolen' that balance. The increased our flying by almost 20% with no compensation. Even if they were to pay us for that time, for me, I would prefer to fly 80 hours and not earn the overtime. For me the, that it is where the balance between life and work exists. Others may well be happy working 90 plus hours a month for the OT. Of course, we are working those hours for NO overtime which makes the situation even worse.

All of this of course overshadows the main point and that is that 90 hours plus a month of the type of flying EK does is simply dangerous. It is not sustainable. Most pilots can see that and feel it. A few newer captains have said to me that they seem to be handling it but they have been flying those hours only for a year. Give it a few more and we will see!

They are pushing EVERY department to the breaking point and I fear that it will soon break and we are in a business that when it does break that people may well die.

I have said this before, but I will say it again. I can't believe how much better I feel not flying. 92 hours a month, back of the clock through multiple time zones simply is not good for you. I believe, it will kill you in the medium to long term.
And Emirates won't care.

Look after yourself and your families everyone.

I don't think any airline cares, let alone EK. Unions force some to pay attention though.

It's a business, that's all there is to it. If one cannot manage, leave the profession.

I've accumulated nearly 25 000 hours, am nearing 'the end', but still enjoy this way of life.