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-   -   EK pilots 3 man MLE etc (https://www.pprune.org/middle-east/558271-ek-pilots-3-man-mle-etc.html)

thatwasclose 16th Mar 2015 18:58

EK pilots 3 man MLE etc
 
Guys and Gals,

If you or the other pilots both do not get hours rest then the augment pilot does not count. You must write a discretion report, as a two man crew not in variation 1. When you go into discretion on a variation 1 flight the report goes straight to the authorities and it seems that the company was getting crap back. If you go into discretion under normal rules less than 2? hours it is internal. I am not sure how you start the trip legally in this manner, but remember, legally if you or the other guy has not got 3 hours its illegal to extend as per the 3 man crew. It is disrection and you must write a report. The company desperately is trying to prevent a lay over and if you just say you got 3 hours you are helping no one.
Fill out the report.

Avid Aviator 16th Mar 2015 19:12

Two pilots (never mind the 3rd) can NOT get 3 hours rest on the MLE flight. No seat change allowed while in climb or descent. Flight time around 3:40 - do the maths. And that's not even going into the "no burnout" approved on these for the augmenter.
So normal limits (NOT Annex 1) apply. Which invariably puts you into discretion when your roster is published, up to 40 days before you operate.

That is not what discretion is for, it's for disruptions after sign on.

I was caught out the first time, I won't be doing it next time!!

flyinthesky 17th Mar 2015 03:35

Same issue with night Chennai. Impossible for one guy to get 3 hours on one sector. It is operated as a burnout but even so, both guys cannot get 3 hours.

Discretion report submitted but operating FO was desperate not to submit. He spent ages trawling the OM-A for excuses. But report was submitted!!!

lospilotos 17th Mar 2015 05:03


Originally Posted by flyinthesky (Post 8904697)
Same issue with night Chennai. Impossible for one guy to get 3 hours on one sector. It is operated as a burnout but even so, both guys cannot get 3 hours.

Discretion report submitted but operating FO was desperate not to submit. He spent ages trawling the OM-A for excuses. But report was submitted!!!

Company knows and uses the excuse "We think 3 pilots getting some rest (not counting the augmenting whom does not get any in-flight rest), is better than 2 pilots getting no rest at all"

BobDole 17th Mar 2015 05:11

The rest does not "need" to be consecutive. It's how they will get around it. So long as there is 6 hours somehow split between the two operating pilots then it's legal. (7.7.1.2)

The only defense will be if there is less than 6 hours of "cruise" time available between both sectors. And if that's the case I'm sure they will have no issue in just slowing the sectors down to meet the requirement.

The only way the third guy will get even close to 3 hours is to be on "rest" every single second they are on duty and not in an "operating" seat.

Have no fear... If you find a loophole somewhere they will just close it with an amendment :ugh:

lospilotos 17th Mar 2015 05:31

Well on MLE at least there is not 6 hours available as you also need to do breifings which should be completed before TOD. I would also like to draw the parallell to controlled rest where the resting pilot should not engage in any duties for 20 minutes after waking up.

Another thought, does the 3rd pilot need to be in the flight deck for takeoff and landing? OM-A says he should, if not resting. Since a First Class seat is reserved for rest, could the augmenting then be resting in the cabin during takeoff and landing?

BobDole 17th Mar 2015 06:23

The way I handle it is to put them on rest and stick them in the back for everything unless they are actively in an operating seat. Otherwise they will not get the required 3 hours to extend the duty (assuming 60 from boarding to TOC, 90 TOD to TOC, then 30 TOD to DXB).
Unless the pairing has been specifically listed as a "burnout" per vp-ops, everyone must get the 3 hours somehow.

Capn Rex Havoc 17th Mar 2015 07:04

BOB- I assume Male is a "Burnout policy" flight.
I can only speak for the 330, where we do TRV 3 pilot, and there is a notam issued stating that it is to be burnout. I bought the issue of not getting the rest required due to changing seats etc, to manager regulatory affairs. His response was that on paper it is legal, and has been accepted by GCAA.

I guess it like our sign on is on paper 1 hour before push back and... well we all know how that goes.

FuelFlow 17th Mar 2015 11:35

Where does it state no seat change in climb and descend?
Since when do briefings need to be done before TOD?

Just curious!

Eau de Boeing 17th Mar 2015 11:43

Is there an actual part of the manual that says these things?
I was trying to find the section that states that crew cannot go on rest until 10,000ft and can only come up with the generalised section about critical phases of flight.

what_goes_up 17th Mar 2015 11:54

OM-A 5.2.15.2 says, the captain can only be relieved by an ATPL holder above FL200 or below FL200 by another commander.

FuelFlow 17th Mar 2015 12:10

That is 100% correct, but still in the climb or descent!
OM A 8.3.10.1 gives you the answer for the F/O

thatwasclose 17th Mar 2015 12:15

Boeing CRC cannot be entered below 25,000

Mach_Krit 17th Mar 2015 13:49

what goes up

yeah I deleted my post after seeing that. But its such a ballache should/shall..

thanks for the reference =)

what_goes_up 17th Mar 2015 13:56

Agree... And not saying it makes sense... :D :D

natops 17th Mar 2015 14:28

Mle
 
During a ccp a few months ago sp said that the mle 3 man operation has nothing to do with extending duty times.

Its only in place to get the operating flightcrew doing an approach slightly less tired. So not necessary to do a 3 hrs rest for the operating crew.

What ever you think of it ofcourse.....

N.:ok:

BANANASBANANAS 17th Mar 2015 14:37

I have been spared the MLE so far but it strikes me that the Rostering solution is simply to roster crew who have had 30+ hours rest after a BKK layover or similar so that they are unacclimatised and have a longer allowable FDP.

Happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

Mr Angry from Purley 17th Mar 2015 15:15

EK pilots 3 man MLE etc
 
Bananas careful you'll get a job in crew planning

Plane_Sailing 17th Mar 2015 16:28

As stated earlier, rest does not need to be consecutive. So with a 1 hour 30 min turnaround, 20 mins could be taken on the ground in Male if necessary. It does not have to be sleep to count. Good pilots are problem solvers not problem makers.

BANANASBANANAS 17th Mar 2015 16:48

Afraid not PS. You cant take 'in flight rest' on the ground. It becomes an attempt at Split duty - for which rest in the aeroplane is allowed. However,

Rest on the ground must be at least 3 hours consecutive, (90 minute turnround)

No pax on board (boarding commences STD-45)

Must be control of environment to allow for rest. (Cleaners, caterers, cabin crew checks etc, lights all on, noisy environment etc etc)

So I disagree that your 'solution' is in compliance with OMA and I will not be using it.


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