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Milan-JFK assault
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What about SQ flying Singapore, Moscow and then New York? I don't hear anybody kicking up a stink about that? What's so special about Dubai, Milan and then New York?
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Don't recall too much, if any, shouting about the Dubai-Hamburg-JFK route 5 years ago either.
So much for "Land of the free":rolleyes: |
Contradicting...
One minute he's saying he wants a fair and level playing field and the next that he wants other airlines to be at a competitive disadvantage? :confused:
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Milan-JFK traffic rights were originally acquired by SQ.
That was last year. EK then grabbed the slots when SQ failed to use them. |
ALPA News Release
Release #13.49 September 30, 2013 Emirates New Milan–N.Y. Route Threatens U.S. Aviation Jobs U.S. Government Must Level the Playing Field to Ensure Health of U.S. Airlines, Jobs WASHINGTON–Emirates Airline’s new route from Milan to New York, slated to begin Tuesday, is a clear first step in long-term strategy by a heavily supported state-owned foreign airline to undercut U.S. airlines and hurt U.S. jobs. The new route goes head-to-head with long-established U.S. carrier routes between New York and Milan. This is a flight that originated in Dubai and, instead of a direct flight, Emirates is adding a stopover in a popular European destination in order to draw new business. Clearly, this is the beginning of a dangerous trend by state-owned foreign carriers, one that threatens U.S. jobs, U.S. passengers and ultimately the future of the U.S. aviation system, which contributes $1 trillion to our economy each year. Capt. Lee Moak, president of the Air Line Pilots Association International (ALPA) said of the new route: “Ultimately, this is about saving U.S. jobs. If we are not able to compete fairly, the U.S. airlines industry will disappear. Foreign carriers like Emirates play by different rules. As state-owned and state-supported, they have unlimited checking accounts and do not have to abide by the same tax, security and regulatory policies that U.S. carriers do. We can’t stop the way they do business, but we are asking the U.S. government to make aviation policy decisions that advance the U.S. airline industry – not harm it.” Today, under the current structure, U.S. airlines face excessive taxes, a burdensome regulatory environment, inadequate and stalled infrastructure funding, and federal policy that permits an unlevel playing field in the global market. Conversely, Emirates Airline does business tax-free in the United Arab Emirates. It flies new, fuel-efficient aircraft subsidized by U.S. taxpayers, benefits from pro-aviation national policy, and operates at state-of-the-art airports funded by tens of billions of dollars in infrastructure investment by its government. “Many foreign countries view their airlines’ success as critical to diversifying their national economy in the face of finite natural resources,” added Capt. Moak. “We are asking the U.S. government to show similar tenacity in advancing the U.S. airline industry that ultimately has a positive effect on the country’s economy as a whole.” U.S. airlines fly approximately half a million passengers a year between New York and Milan. While the prospect of U.S. airlines’ losing international passengers to heavily- state-supported foreign airlines is troubling on its own merits, U.S. domestic passengers and air cargo shippers could also feel the repercussions in the long-term. “The entire U.S. air transportation system – and the thousands of jobs it supports - could be at risk if the U.S. government does not ensure our airlines a fair opportunity to compete to perform this international flying.” Capt. Moak said. “The entire aviation industry and Americans throughout the country must stand up to ensure the long-term health of our airlines and our aviation jobs.” one that threatens...... U.S. passengers The new route goes head-to-head with long-established U.S. carrier routes between New York and Milan. is a clear first step in long-term strategy As state-owned and state-supported, they have unlimited checking accounts do not have to abide by the same tax, security and regulatory policies that U.S. carriers do. |
DAL and UCAL have been selling tickets out of Japan for decades now, Fedex and UPS are operating N registered A/C's from bases in Asia and the EU. Or fair skies is only fair as long as only one country gets to do it? I just find all this bitching a bit hypocritical....:=
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Like it or not Aviation is now globalized industry. No different than textiles, IT, Automotive, Manufacturing etc etc etc. Before complaining about unfair competition and how ALPA needs support to stop Emirates or other carriers from "taking their jobs" each member should check the "Made In" tag on everything that they own and if it doesn't say "Made In America" ask themselves what they have done to support other American industries that have been globalized.
FYI Captain Delta 26year blah blah blah... nobody cares about your professional dedication. Since we don't have the cover of a collective group I can guarantee that every pilot that works for EK is at least as competent but more than likely far more qualified than you as our route structure is far more demanding and we are only as good as our last flight. Finally passengers don't care about your job. They care about great service and cheap fares.Time to wake up like a lot of your fellow countrymen who work here. Helmet on standing by. |
I see both sides to this. Pax need choice, but industries need some protections to.
Without some type of protection there will be no airline industry left in the 1st world. Without that any T&Cs in places like EK will quickly decline. The only people that prosper are the office dwellers. The main losers are the crews, engineers etc. There really is a fine line. Airlines need to compete, grow markets, update products and not rely on government handouts. But they must also be given some way of protecting themselves from the likes of EK, where a lot costs can not be competed with. The answer is way above my pay grade. The Don |
You just have to laugh at the idiot presenting this..... A 26 year Delta captain what the hell has that got to do with it? Another self promoting individual and why is he prancing about in his uniform when not at work? I have never understood that.
About time people like him realised the 10's of billions Emirates spend buying Boeing aircraft will inject far more into the American economy than They lose by EK flying a few routes from European hubs. |
A bit like that guy from Air Canada a few years ago, carrying on about the same thing, except he was a great ad for EK, saying things like ' look at Emirates product, it's good, we can't compete with that!'
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October 1, 2013
Fellow ALPA Pilots, Today, Emirates Airline (EK) began B-777 scheduled service between Milan and JFK. This flight is not part of a code share or alliance; this is an Emirates plane flying directly from Italy to the United States in direct competition with U.S. carriers and ALPA members. Unless we quickly and decisively take action now, we can expect to see many more invasions like this by state-supported carriers seeking to undercut our companies and eventually take our routes entirely. As you’ve heard from me before, the Middle Eastern carriers are expanding at a rate never before seen thanks to their governments’ strategic focus on their industries. Dubai, Abu Dhabi, and Qatar have all dedicated state resources to facilitating their airlines’ rapid growth. These countries have vertically integrated conglomerates, owning everything from the oil fields and refineries to the airports and airlines. The huge state support that results from this model enables these carriers to dramatically reduce the costs of running their businesses compared to U.S. carriers, giving them a competitive advantage in the marketplace. But despite this, we have turned them back before. In June, Qatar abandoned plans to fly directly between Athens and JFK because of weak demand, and Emirates dropped out of the Hamburg-JFK market for similar reasons; Delta and United, respectively, are currently flying those routes profitably. However, past success cannot be taken for granted. Collectively, Emirates, Etihad, and Qatar Airways have more than 1,000 airplanes on order and all of them have plans to expand into as many markets as possible. These carriers are aiming for all of our international routes right now and all our domestic routes in the future. Without a doubt, I know that U.S. airlines are the greatest in the world. Our problem is not our ability to compete, but that our competitors not only get support from their own governments, the U.S. government chips in as well. The Export-Import Bank is still trying to use U.S. taxpayer money to fund widebody aircraft purchases by state-subsidized carriers around the world. The Department of Transportation is currently considering granting a “rent-a-code” agreement that would allow Emirates to fly passengers whose fares are being paid for by the U.S. government. And plans continue to move forward on a CBP preclearance facility in Abu Dhabi–an airport that no U.S. carrier flies to. These issues are just symptoms of the problem we have in Washington: a government that often neglects, and sometimes even undermines, our airline industry. This week, ALPA released a new video that makes clear the scale of the threat from these heavily state-backed foreign airlines if the U.S. government fails to act. Members of Congress and the Administration need to know that the people who elect them care about our industry and are willing to fight to keep it strong. If you haven’t participated in our Call to Action against the CBP preclearance facility in Abu Dhabi, please take the time to do so now. And show your support for your career and our industry by supporting ALPA-PAC, our most effective weapon for pilot partisan change in D.C. All of these pieces are connected and we cannot expect victory on the broader agenda without winning these battles. The MXP-JFK route could be just the beginning of the Emirates’ takeover of our industry or it could be the high tide before we turn them back. I hope I can count on your support. Sincerely, Capt. Lee Moak The union letter that went out addressing the situation, for what it is worth. Cheers. |
Ever flown in Y class on an American airline. Let the passangers make the choice.
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Without a doubt, I know that U.S. airlines are the greatest in the world. no comment |
"Without a doubt, I know that U.S. airlines are the greatest in the world"
I've never posted in here because I have nothing to do with the Middle East....but that is the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long time. |
such hypocrites. Delta uses a similar Canadian "import-export" bank to buy those CRJ's at very cheap loans.
I believe Brazil gives a similar deal for those Jungle Jets. |
About time people like him realised the 10's of billions Emirates spend buying Boeing aircraft will inject far more into the American economy than They lose by EK flying a few routes from European hubs. |
Read post no.7. Why is it I don't hear any referencing to that? Why is what DAL, UAL, FEX, and UPS any different? I'd like to see a response to an EK hub in ATL going to places other than DXB. See it for what it is.
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DAL and UAL ( not cargo in this discussion) don't have bases outside a U.S. State, or territory ie Guam.
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Yeah, they do. DAL flies from Tokyo to places other than the US (ie Philippines)
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the bubble will bust soon enough gents...and then they wont be buying billions worth of Airbii or Boeings on govt gauranteed loans....
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and Emirates dropped out of the Hamburg-JFK market for similar reasons Will the same happen to MXP? |
Lee Moak is an idiot who is driving ALPA to the point of revolt. Most of the regionals are ready to decertify ALPA because of his lack of leadership and the same is true for half of the new united. All Lee cares about is keeping his cushy ALPA president job and believe me it's very cushy. The US airlines should be scared, their product has devolved into nothing more than flying chicken buses to Tijuana. The airplanes are old, the service sucks and there is very little to separate one carrier from the next. If congress ever reopens and decides to implement free skies allowing foreign carriers to operate within the borders then all of Lee's nightmares will certainly come true.
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Originally Posted by myekppa
Quote:
and Emirates dropped out of the Hamburg-JFK market for similar reasons EK dropped out of HAM-JFK because the demand was for DXB-JFK. HAM became a meaningless tech stop for 300 transit pax and 50 joiners. Difficult to grow a market when the flight is already full so it became a non-stop service. When I operated that particular flight there was a lot of HAM - JFK traffic and vice versa! |
I may have time for ALPA and their incessant whinging once they understand what a level playing field is, and stop pretending US carrier does not benefit tremendously from the very practice he is arguing against.
In other words, when every single US carrier has closed every single non-US base and withdrawn from any and all routes similar to the one ALPA are complaining about, then he will have a case. Until then he is nothing but a xenophobic politician, distorting facts and omitting details to further his case and career. As for the 'US airlines are best' comment, that really does say it all - talk about living in a bubble of delusions! |
Having flown 4 sectors in a United B747 with no PTVs or sockets for laptops in 2013(FFS),these airlines need to shape up to the real world and offer what the flying public want.The service level on the DL B747 fleet was until recently awful from Japan to the US.This is the result of airlines being shielded from competition.
Is not the rights that DL and UA have to fly pax between BKK and HND/NRT an invasion of someone else's market?.The same to Singapore from Tokyo,I believe as well.There seems to be a double standard here. If EK/EY or QR ever start from Bangkok to Japan-and maybe on to the US west coast,DL and UA will be fighting a losing battle for pax. So much for the land of unfettered free enterprise. |
Didn't TC say in an interview recently, that the last piece in the EK jigsaw (I'm paraphrasing) was services from Asia to the USA?
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SOPS,
Bring it on!. I would imagine a ready market out of Japan(for one) if they get the rights. |
Yes, TC did say that. Emirates has wanted to connect the pacific for a long time. With the Qantas deal, it is that much easier.
Wait until you see Qantas flights operated by Emirates to Hawaii, SYD-LAX, etc. |
Ignore the poor fellow and let's get back to the subject. Malpensa to NYC is just the beginning..
I remember when PanAm B272 flew around Europe claiming WW2 grandfather rights |
Malpensa to NYC is just the beginning.. Although there's already an A380 earmarked for the new route. |
I bet our good friend of 20+ years at DL has thought on more than one occasion of one of the ME airlines at some point!
What about SQ offering JFK-FRA or IAH-DME? Or Kuwait Airways offering LHR-JFK? Last time I checked the paying public had free choice to "pay" for the best product that's being offered? Anyone fancy an 8 hour flight down the back of DL's rot box 767 with Nancy who's got a face like a spaniel? Or we could pay less and get a better service? Up to you public! |
A friendly wager!
I bet one of his family members have ridden on us somewhere in the world and went back and told him.."man you should have seen the service, we got blankets, pillows, newspapers and even magazines. Hey wait a second, didn't the US carriers use to do all this too? They had cabin crew less than 30 years old and the oldest couldn't have been over 40. They were polite dressed nice and even smiled and ask me if I needed anything. The pilot still dressed as professional, too. The aircraft were clean (most are leased by the way) everything worked and they had more than 6 movies to choose from..wow it was just like the good old days." Oh yeah, this was on a DXB-DOH less than an hour flight.!!! The only reason any US carrier is showing a profit now is because of the crazy extra fees they are charging, that they don't get taxed on. Aviation will never be the same in the US, and that is why customers are filling up all of EK's airplanes. It is hard for me to understand why and how a CEO can run these companies in the ground and it is sad to see.....best of luck to everyone.
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At least EK flies there with a Boeing...could be more insulting with Airbus...hey Captain how many jobs created just because EK buying hundreds of Boeings?
And what should Iraqis + others say about the way your country spreads its wings wherever it wants,without looking for fair competition??? Come on Capt go change your spectacles and wear high visibility jacket when you walk around your plane... |
Come on guys , go and get an education and see where these aeroplanes come from ! Airbus is assembled in France , Boeing is assembled in USA. Neither are built in those countries. EK 's A380's with US built engines probably has nearly as much US content $ dollar wise as a lot of the Boeings. When you look at where the various parts are built its quite interesting !
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Cultural references aside, you can see Stexup's point about defending the same people who gave the shaft without hesitation at profit share time and so many other shafts. Doesn't make sense to me either.
Judging from that excerpt quoted above, I think Lee Moak is a particularly well-spoken pilot who has ennunciated his point with great effect. IMHO most pilots are nowhere near as concise, effective or cerebral. I suspect that Lee knows full-well much of what he says is not reasonable however this is politics and convincing the less deep thinking masses is part of his job. It's SOP in a role like his. |
Stexup
Your abusive language and behavior are a disgrace for our profession specially in a public forum. Thank God you were banned. You should not be anywhere close to an airplane.
Mfan |
Seems that the abusive language was coming from both directions, with some pretty inflammatory things being said about the French - I would assume the same standard would be applied to those comments, with those posters also banned?!
Disagree with Stexup's style if you wish, but he is not incorrect about the slave mentality in ME carriers. And when you have slave labour, you will always have a massive competitive advantage over those who do not enjoy the ability to abuse their workers at a whim. That's the true EK "edge". The US carriers just need to hurry up and get rid of any sort of labour protection whatsoever, so they can begin to compete again. I'm sure they could improve their product if they could just recruit the same desperate workforce that the Arab gulf exploits. |
Slave mentality? Maybe and certainly true amongst certain professions, including one or two close to home here in EK.
However, for pilots that statement holds no water. T&C 's are well above industry average and my monthly pay packet substantiates that. How much longer am I prepared to do 90 hours a month with poor roster design is a moot point. However, as for the French making crap cars, that's not racist or insulting....that's just stating facts! :E Harry |
I'm flying there in a few days. And as a former NWA/Delta pilot, I'm really looking forward to it. I'm not in fear of a furlough, the airplanes are fixed, the cabin crew are much better than the cabin crew at NWA whose attitude was "we aren't happy til you aren't happy". Screw ALPA. They have screwed more of the regional carriers and jobs in the US than Emirates. It would be very interesting to see how many jobs Emirates has created in the U.S. with all the Boeing orders, all the stations that are now opening, versus those lost because we are flying Milan New York. Yet Delta has no issue doing the same to Japanese airlines. Flying all over Asia from their base in Japan. What about Delta flying to India from Amsterdam? He didn't mention that. How about FedEx in HongKong or Germany (Frankfurt I think).
How about you stop spreading lies about protectionism, when you are out doing the same thing in other countries. How about you get your **** together enough to offer a quality product, quite having your cabin crew bitching all the time, quite having your pilots being pissed off assholes (which is a union problem right?) and start offering quality products. It's embarrassing to ride on Delta at the moment. And I'm a former NWA guy. |
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