Emirates vs Turkish Airlines
 

Hi everybody,

What would you choose if you were in your early thirties, married without children, ambitious A320 FO?

Emirates A380 DEFO

or

Turkish Airlines A330 DEFO

Many thanks! :ok:

If you don't mind the heat, go for EK. However, recall you won't see an A380 Captain upgrade for 10-12 years. You may upgrade faster at the other growing UAE airline. If you can't stand extreme heat for a few months per year, go for TK. Both are fast-growing airlines with expanding hubs. I would have your spouse weigh in heavily on his/her preference as well since you will be traveling most of the time while he/she remains.

That's my 0.02. Others have their own opinions. Regardless, good job if you have offers from both. :ok::cool:

I would have said Emirates for the last 11 years, now I am honestly not sure that would be the case, I don't joke either.

Probably not. Try the far side of 12-15 years if ever. Right now Emirates has 6 year A380 F/Os with previous medium jet command time. New joiners will not get a command until the airline doubles in size to nearly 400+ aircraft if that happens. The EK age demography means few retirements, those and any resignations will likely be compensated for by DECs.

Turkish maybe. Emirates is a big airline and growth will decline from now on. Many of the orders are overdue replacements for older aircraft.

The poster Iver has no particular connection with EK or the Middle East area. I think he works in Europe.


Even so I wouldn't go work for THY. I wouldn't join EK as an F/O either.

My 2 cents, wherever you can get command the fastest, even if that means staying where you are. With 1000 pic in the 320 the world is yours, even dec into 330 etc. if you can stick it out it's worth it.

Contradicting views. Everyone seems to scoff at the idea of staying in the ME >15 years whilst predicting little attrition.

Has command really shot up to ~12 years already? Especially given TC is now talking about +350 aircraft fleet, and quoted recently as 120-150 A380's.

And Turkish haven't honoured expat contracts! Steer clear!

Recently less scoffing and more staying. This area (with EK, EY & QR) is where the growth has been and the jobs are. Maybe the US will open up but don't count on it.

Not for people who joined more than a couple of years ago. But it will. See the next paragraphs.

Based on that forecast a 40+ year old F/O joining now might never get their command at EK. With a current fleet size of 191 or 202 including freighters it would take a fleet size of 400+ before someone joining now would be up for command. Yes there will be retirements and resignations. There will also be DECs. Two thirds of the joiners in the last two calendar months were DECs. Admittedly a DEC spike, but they're not going to go away this time.
There are 188 aircraft on order. Half or more will be replacement not additional aircraft.

And this is where a part of EKs growth will be. Bigger aircraft equals more passengers (customers).

My advice is join EY.

Thanks, I appreciate the advice. The majority of people looking to come to the region still aim for EK.

The other carrier is becoming an option as it matures.

On the widebody in THY, there are 7 to 10 consecutive days off each month which you won't have in EK. Istanbul, though not 100% European city, is a great place to live. The climate can't be compared with that of Dubai of course!

On the other hand, in THY there are some uncertainties regarding foreign FOs command upgrade and contract prolongation (EK looks more stable and secure in the long term, despite the long upgrade time).

Salaries in both companies are almost the same. But in EK you will get some other benefits such as company provided accomodation and education support allowance for up to 3 children.

I would say - a hard choice. Good luck!

My 0.02.

Don't come to Emirates if all you are after is a quick command. If you join now it isn't likely to be that quick and you will still be in Dubai, with the 92 hour rosters and all that entails, while you are waiting. You will end up becoming bitter an twisted as you (possibly) get passed over for command because you are on the wrong fleet or they bring in DECs. In answer to a question above they use DECs because it is cheaper and faster than upgrading an F/O and training his replacement- there have been times in the past, and doubtless will be again, when the training department is running flat out and still can't put the required numbers through the system. DECs are here to stay, just accept it.

Come to Emirates and Dubai for the long term, the lifestyle, the climate, the destinations and the job security. The command will come eventually.

70 - 350 includes 50 359 and 20 351, EK has already said they are only interested in the 351 ( 20 ) which has an EIS 2017 at the earliest. The 50 359 no one knows, but it does not look good. Additional 380 's maybe but post 2017. 777 @ 13 to retire in 2014. 773ers start to be replaced in 2017 ( TC press release) A few more DEC's on the 330, hopefully for the EK FO's that's it for a while. A large amount of hiring this past year was DEC's , don't know if it was a majority .

White Knight

That's not 100% true. They initially said the contract was permanent although they signed it to the Commanders only with the promise that they were working on the contract for FOs.
And so it was, we the FOs have signed already our permanent agreement.

So, yes, they were late and initially signing the old contract was a big disappointment for us, but at least they've done now what they said.

There is no such thing as a permanent contract in Turkey. The labour legislations are much different from the European ones, no matter what they call it. The only permanency is that the contract might indefinitely be renewed automatically if none of the parts wishes to terminate it.

TypeIV

Agree with you. The contract is written and defined as a permanent one, but at some point there is a note stating that this is valid as long as your work permit is valid.
Is easy for the company not to renew it.

But, again, I don't think that Dubai and the policy of this companies, with no pilot unions etc is much more better.

Still I will go for EK if someone asks me.

Let me ask you guys this....what's life like when flying 92 hrs/month for EK?? how many days off during the month and how many nights at home does 92 hrs a month means???! with the Ultra Long Haul flights and so on...is there any time left to enjoy living in Dubai with the wife and family??:cool:

On the other hand...let's talk money :} is saving at all possible on a FO salary?...and again, having a life in Dubai; does this still apply or is it impossible...I dont know this ('cuz I dont work/live there) but I'd say EK is a good place if you are in it for the long term and the job stability it offers....but still would like to know the answer to my questions above,..thanks!!

Having worked at both companies EK and THY on B777, I would recommend you go to Turkish if you are only talking about a quick command. It will be on a narrow body and the work load will be pretty serious. Currently Turkish pilots are exempt from income tax ( a bit like the French artists ), this is rumoured to be changing under Turkey's outspoken prime minister. That would mean more coin in Dubai. All the best with your decision.

Where do you work now fluke?

I am still at Turkish. Don't think I would do another stint in the gulf countries. :ugh:

How many ex EK guys are up there? heard quite a few have gone

Did someone really quote 'lifestyle' and 'climate' as the reasons why one should consider EK over TK?

If QOL is anywhere near the list of your priorities, surely living in desert that's been tarted up to the point of visual torture, while flying 92 hours a month on a random roster with few - if any - 5+ consecutive days off, can't be what's floating your boat.

More importantly, should your wife suffer a rape she won't be banged up in an Istanbul jail for having sex outside of marriage ...

Some guys have no idea. Makes me laugh.Must be the summer heat.

And quite a few TRYING to come back.... And failing!

Who says? Still a muslim counrty.........

Yawn..... Again!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for posting Zonak.

Whether widespread injustice is perpetuated by an iron fist or a velvet glove....

... For every action there will be a reaction.

Be that the losing of EXPO 2020 or something else...over time karma will prevail...

f.

I would go straight to the airline based in AUH if I was joining now. They have strong financial backing, committed to quality over cost, starting to pay a regular bonus, good healthcare and the living standard in AUH is getting better and better.

Same pay, much better staff travel, shorter time to command etc. in many ways if we were allowed to move from EK to this airline, I would strongly consider it, not that I am unhappy in my current job - far from it.

Anyone who's capable of reading, or have been visiting, will tell you that.

The main religion is Muslim, yes, but it's a secular society and its laws have no foundation in Sharia. Which means, amongst other things, that women and men have the same rights and privileges under the law.

But you knew that already, didn't you?

You working for THY?
If so, you know that as per contract we have minimum 8 days off a month, don't you? (not 7 as you said)

B737 FO, last 5 months:

March-> 64hrs
April-> 80hrs
May-> 71hrs
June-> 84hrs
July-> 73hrs

Had always my 4 consecutive days off. Went back home every single month.
Had an average of 8 unchangeable days off (mandatory) plus 4 or 5 more off changeable days (never called).

What I don't understand is that you're not talking about something that THY promised you and then wasn't accomplished.
For example, you're saying that a MINIMUM of 8 days off and from those 4 in a row isn't enough for you. And you give the example of Ryanair which is 5-4. But you were not told in the interview with THY that you would have 5-4 blocks like in Ryan, were you?
So?
I was promised something in my interview and so far has been like that.
If some day they change it all and I'm not enjoying 4 days at home, they reduce my salary or they make me fly every month 110hrs then I will start crying like you in this forum.
No wait, I will just leave for another job and I won't create an account here to bitch about my company not talking about anything else.

Get a life!!!

Or better, go to Ryanair!

Yes I did pass my interview with Emirates and yes I wasn't offered the job within 1 year so I have to re-interview. But it doesn't mean that I will leave for Ek anytime. If THY gives me the 330 or 777 I'll stay here.
And if I see that I can get my command faster than in EK of course I will stay here. What's the point with that?

Yabancypilot.....All that aggression!!! Take up MMA. You will make it to the top. Every mail I read from you is a hate mail. Come on and lighten up. After all its just a job. There is no such thing as an expat airline. I work for a large outfit with many expats in all levels, but do not mistake it for something that's belongs or is controlled by expats.

Enjoy the rest of the day

yabancypilot
 

Dear colleagues, dear everybody, please do not shoot the messenger (yabancypilot) as he is 100 per cent correct and just stating facts. - Unfortunately - To all his post: nothing to add and nothing to delete. I say again just the facts as experienced by foreing pilots coming from western hemisphere and culture

I only know long haul pilots with THY. They seem very happy. I do understand THY has problems with accepting a large contingency of expats. SAS pilots would probably also take issue with a large group of say afghani pilots pitching up.

Its a cultural issue that can only be solved over time, if at all.

Basically to follow Yabancy pilots advice. Don't join THY short haul, but Long haul is OK.

MMA is mixed martial arts....cage fighting :ouch::ouch:

Come on man. You pretend to be a captain in THY, don't you?
You exclusively post in pprune to talk about your company starting more than 1 year ago.
And you still there? A captain, with the hundreds of offers that you can easily find in sites like latestpilotjobs or similar, is still in the Turkish hell after more than 1 year posting **** about them here?
:ugh:

P.S: ok that's funny. Few posts above you said that long haul guys were ok. I think that your modus operandi of bitching about any single thing here couldn't let you sleep, so here you are saying oh no no, even the long haul guys are bad now.
You know a lot, don't you? And the rest of the guys here are just dumb and when we talk with our colleagues all of them lie to us isn't it? :D

I think comparing EK with THY is like comparing diamonds with stones . One is a well established expat friendly airline offering a lot of benefits for families and an internationally recognized professional environment the latter is a strongly culturally biased and professionally questionable environment where expat are looked at with contempt, kept in ghetto as a temporary fix and therefore not given any real benefit if not a salary. Turks are always ( not !) the best....:mad:. Being an FO I would not think one second to pick EK.

There is no such thing as a permanent contract in Turkey, neither legally nor pragmatically speaking. It's like Europe in the 1800s. I doubt there is such a thing in Dubai either for an expat when it comes down in the end. They hire you as they please and kick you out as they please.

Your comments are fair! BUT remember one airline is located close to Europe in a centre of culture. The other is located in a sandy glass sauna. How many beers/lunches have you had out with your friends this month.
A career in EK will sap your spirit as they work you to the bone.
Eventually (it won't worry anybody there now), I predict it will go like SQ.
Management will decide Dubai is now first world and Expat conditions need no longer be offered. They are already experimenting a bit with flydubai.

I'll be so interested if you can please share with us more information regarding this matter.
The contract has around 8 parts. You can give me the point from 1 to 8 where you found that there will be no upgrade for FOs.

Thanks!

HI. I just got called for an interview in DXB for F/O on Airbus fleet. 11000 TT, 5500 h on A320 and B737 above 55 t as PIC. How long is the wait list for an upgrade in EK? Or should I stay flying A320 as PIC now?

RGDS

Well, it is summer and Ramadan, so we have been restricted to boozy dinners. But October to May, pretty much weekly.


The problem with that theory is that there are ALREADY ex-pat v local conditions at EK- thing is, the locals get more!!

Yeah your right PORKFLYER EK is no go