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Son of a .... magenta
back in 1990s
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You guys hit the nail on the head! Moving throttles are just great ..... Because they move forward when thrust increases. When not, no thrust!
Now if a thrust increase is anticipated or desired and they do not move, what on earth could be the reason? - malfunction (already discarded by NRSB) - bad/insufficient training? - old AB habits? - bad monitoring of crew for whatever reason? To conclude: amen again to Schnowzer |
Doris Day did better than the average manual handling sim session.
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Aviating 101-Power + Attitude=Performance.
Landing 101-Aimpoint, Aspect, Airspeed. Applies in an AB, a Boeing and even in a Helicopter. What has happened is that the people in the crew seats were not AVIATING!!!!!! Who cares what mode/where thrust levers are etc-either the aircraft is doing what you want it to do-or you make it! That is what did not happen!!!! AIRMANSHIP-pure and simple. |
watching "children of the magenta" should be required course material once a year...however, alarmingly amount of pilots are unable to drop to the lowest level of automation without near crashing. No manual handling sim will fix that. What to do?
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Of course, the 777 does have moving throttles.
When the autothrottle is in HOLD mode, aircraft speed is assumed to be controlled by pitch, so the thrust does not change. The surprising thing is that there is no 'wake-up' from this mode. The assumption is that the correct pitch will be maintained by the (auto)pilot and that a lower altitude will always be selected in the MCP. Sounds like 767, but since VS mode was selected in this instance, would the A/T have been in HOLD mode? |
No!
That's why i hate the FLCH mode below 6000agl. It lacks the wake-up mode and, anyway, in below 15-10k you are prone to inversions which make this mode give you some high rod's. Add to that requested fast speed reductions, configuration changes, then the rate is a good guess at most, mainly unmonitored by most modern aviators, and top that with a rather sluggish spin-up (if the correct alt is set) and you have what leads to the many ASRs stating "short line-up by ATC" or "unexpected shortcut" leading to a GA. At least these blokes went around, but they most probably stuffed-up the approach by not dominating the rod. That's why I do not use FLCH below 6000agl. V/S does just fine, i control my rod and i even 'assist' the spin-up with my hands. Not only for comfort reasons, but to stay in the loop, to train my subconscious to control speed even with the AT on. I like that symbiosis, that's what i was lacking on the Bus. There it was either 'him' or 'me', (unless A-prot sets in). The whole bs started during training when some TREs called V/S = very seldom and religiously preached FLCH. Or VNAV even in holdings or when extending centreline on vectors. Now they have to mend fences with another FCI when their products stuff up! (Brace for that revolutionary FCI telling us to use V/S when intercepting .... ) |
Wrong, very wrong.
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watching "children of the magenta" should be required course material once a year...however, alarmingly amount of pilots are unable to drop to the lowest level of automation without near crashing. No manual handling sim will fix that. What to do? |
Couple of points:
1). Bus V. Boeing again?.? .. Nauseatingly immature. 2). Not sure this FLCH discussion is relevant ...the MCP set altitude would dictate THR-FD (probably off) ..unlikely the RWY threshold was set in MCP...and if so - hard to believe. It did not become unstable until after 500' 3). Has anyone ever had a line training flight where the TRE/I encourages or suggests flying it from 10000'. No, because although they say its training and that's the time to do it...it's checking...and he will will "2" you if you get it wrong...."But I thought this was training" won't get you anywhere with the Interview panel....never mind that the TRI could have only been a Capt for six months anyway. Changes coming? f. |
Quote: watching "children of the magenta" should be required course material once a year...however, alarmingly amount of pilots are unable to drop to the lowest level of automation without near crashing. No manual handling sim will fix that. What to do? You are 110% absolutely correct! And the video is quite entertaining too. Very very interesting ... highly recommended! |
"Childern of the Magenta" excellent video ... never obsolete ... and it was 1997!
Has anyone ever had a line training flight where the TRE/I encourages or suggests flying it from 10000'. No, because although they say its training and that's the time to do it...it's checking...and he will will "2" you if you get it wrong...."But I thought this was training" won't get you anywhere with the Interview panel....never mind that the TRI could have only been a Capt for six months anyway. Bus V. Boeing again?.? .. Nauseatingly immature. |
I recommend also the Doris Day video too :)... there'r lot of good learning points too ...
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Automation Dependency
watching "children of the magenta" should be required course material once a year...however, alarmingly amount of pilots are unable to drop to the lowest level of automation without near crashing. No manual handling sim will fix that. What to do? You are 110% absolutely correct! And the video is quite entertaining too. Very very interesting ... highly recommended! And the really scary part about that video is that it was made 16 years ago ! I like the red box FLY THE AIRPLANE FIRST |
I like the red box FLY THE AIRPLANE FIRST In EK you should first retrieve the ASR form in case you were nearly unstable at 20 DME from touchdown. |
Has anyone ever had a line training flight where the TRE/I encourages or suggests flying it from 10000'. No, because although they say its training and that's the time to do it...it's checking...and he will will "2" you if you get it wrong...."But I thought this was training" won't get you anywhere with the Interview panel....never mind that the TRI could have only been a Capt for six months anyway. |
Clear to Land, you are the man!
Aviating 101-Power + Attitude=Performance. Landing 101-Aimpoint, Aspect, Airspeed. Applies in an AB, a Boeing and even in a Helicopter. What has happened is that the people in the crew seats were not AVIATING!!!!!! Who cares what mode/where thrust levers are etc-either the aircraft is doing what you want it to do-or you make it! That is what did not happen!!!! AIRMANSHIP-pure and simple. I have read 7 pages of this crap to get to what is truly the issue of flying a visual approach in gin clear conditions. A 777 or C182, who cares, they all are push and pull, stick and rudder stuff, same basic flying principles. Remember that basic stuff we all learnt on day one in a circuit area? Still applies! Well said C2L!. :D |
Maybe we should all admit that, however many years flying, we all can learn something from these incidents. I learned how to use the smilies! But see what you did ... you made us all emotional now ... your post should have been the last one before closing the thread! Well said |
Fliion I take it you are a Boeing boy, next time you are checking the crew's licences, turn yours over and notice that it says you are rated on the B777. That means you are supposed to be already competent at handling the big jet, before line training... If you fail to demonstrate that ability even on a training flight you need to get back into the sim. I would think a 2 is most appropriate, ie you get more TRAINING... Perhaps if that had happened to our Korean colleagues this thread would not have started....?
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another...Oztronaut speaking....another TRI who has turned line TRAINING into line checking....go figure...forgotten your OWN line training have you??:ugh:
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