EK...The Less Than Good Things
 

So here it is, a thread where we can post all the experiences that are less than exemplary.This includes its host city as well.

Try to post with honesty and keep the emotions out of it (if possible).

The idea here is to take a look at what the experience has given us from a less than positive perspective. Its my hope that anyone looking to come to DXB will weigh the expressions here as well as those in the "EK...The Good Things" when they make their choice.

The idea is to share our experiences both good and bad with those who have not had the privilege of out collective experiences in a thread that bears a factual title.

Please be factual in your post and say only those things you can defend.

1. Rostering
2. intimidation from fleet
3. Rostering
4. Rostering
5. Nonsensical communications
6. Rostering
7. Subcontinent all night turns
8. Rostering
9. On line training with zero credit
10. No more that 5 days off in a row despite whatever hours flown
11. Manual insertions of ADs to prevent too many days off

That's a start to comment on. Did I mention rostering.

Due to company imposed restrictions, the rosters are rubbish and you have no hope of altering them through swaps.

The head/desk factor. Fact is, things that take mere minutes or hours back home take days or weeks here. To be fair, that is throughout Dubai as whole, not just EK...

E.g took 2 years to get me internet banking, my phone bill payments were sent to the wrong account by someone at Etisalat for 9 months, staff travel not issuing tickets that should have been done within 2 business days even after 10 (and having to cough up 100dhs per ticket after 5 hours waiting in line) but god forbid you get slightly irritated or raise your voice at the office person. Suddenly it is all your fault.

It gets easier once you learn to deal, but that takes time. It can add considerably if you are already stressed in other areas of your life (some are mentioned)

The things that detract from the DXB experience:

1. Endless passport copy's required for just about everything.
2. Bizarre over complication of even the most simple tasks, IE stamps, NOC, permission forms, dual signatures, passport pictures...the list goes on.
3. Any encounter with the police.
4. May-Oct unless you like 48'C and very high humidity.
5. Being made to feel like a second class citizen.

Crew Bunk

EK in its infinite wisdom changed the aviation standard placement, behind the cockpit, to the most noisy place on the 380 and the most remote place on the T7.

Rest on the whale is a sad joke, with the noise, and on the T7 you must pass xxx .....ans, xx trolleys, annoying passengers and flight attendants, just to find yourself in a bunk that would be an insult for a average coffin. If you want to watch a movie, better be as flexible as Houdini, if you would like to eat ...... no joy, you need to do that in the cockpit, where the non disturbance policy is waived for the pilots who don't feel like lying flat at 10am for the next 7 hours. A chair? No, only on other carriers, not the self proclaimed best. Empty chairs? No go, unless you want to face morons like EGT after a hidden report of the purser.

Safety? Not necessary in EK's eyes when it comes to crew rest. In case of an emergency the industry-wide and well proven "all hands on deck" is not deemed an option for EK's leaders. You will never make it through 300 panicking ......ans. Additionally the ridiculous pyjamas that we are expected to wear, is as good as a shooting range target for weirdos. At least they now know exactly whom to follow and when the best opportunity arises if they want to make a surprise break to the flight deck, with the total of sometimes 16 passages (two shifts) of fdc.

:D

So you're the one who wears those pajamas...

****! I'm busted .... have to change my handler now.
SP will be eternally grateful, dear Sherlock.

Lol... haven't seen fd in pyjamas on the plane since... ever.

Constant sourcec of amusement to watch junior crew tell off the Capt for being up and about when the FSB sign is on because they don't recognise him.... done it myself once or twice...(to be fair, they were facing away from me at the time)

The bad things; I don't have that much time but here is a list of the big items.

Dubai, 3rd world police state.
2 sets of rules; one for the locals and one for everyone else.
Expensive, very expensive.
Not much to do. Beach or malls take your pick.
Hot, very hot 5 months of the year. So hot it is hard to go outside during those 5 months.
Arrogance and I really don't know why they have it but they have it big time.
3rd world driving mentality. Take your life in your own hands is bad enough but to know your family is driving the roads while you are away is scary and worrisome.

Emirates. Arrogance. They think they are good. Let's see how good they would be with unions, a real government watch dog, and the rule of law. Yeah I know all of those items are non existence or illegal.
Bad pay. How many widebody pilots make less money than us? Consider the amount of hours we work as well.
No work rules, no vacation pay, no sick pay, lousy rosters, non existence duty and time limitations. What other airlines are off duty when they set the brakes at the end of the flight? How many other airlines only have one hour of duty before an international flight? Not too many.
FACTORING! How many pilots are over 900 flying hours a year? How many other airlines FACTOR? Why does Emirates do this and why does the GCAA allow EK to utilize this? What a joke!
FACTORING! You can not say enough about this concept and it has to be addressed.
I know for all the LCC pilots EK looks like a good deal but please compare apples to apples. For you pilots with obtuse mentality that would be AF, LH, AA, DL, QF and CX and not Ryan ($%#ing) Air or any other ****e airline.
There is of course more items. Your list may vary. Craggenmore and Ex 380 don't have anything bad to say. Where did they come from and what drugs are they on? I need some of those.

Swan Man

I was actually agreeing with everything until I got to the paid leave bit. Maybe you need to speak with payroll as I get my full basic every month regardless of whether I'm on leave or flying. Sickness too, having been off for a considerable time recently, salary still paid as normal...in full.

FDL's are valid, it's up to you as Captain to understand them and follow them. It's your 'discretion' so use it or lose it as required. I've done both, although admit only once to not going over but there was no follow up from fleet. And regarding the chocks issue, how many times does this need to be spelt out..

YOU ARE STILL ON DUTY UNTIL CHOCKS +30 MINUTES! :ugh:

This counts for your rest but you don't get paid for it. As you don't the 'free' time before our official 60 minutes before. If you don't like it, do what a small minority do, especially on early starts after days off, report at 61 minutes before. FDM's know about this but there is bugger all the company can do. It ignores then as 99% turn up and report early.

I am talking about not getting credit for vacation. In March I had 3 weeks vacation but still flew 44 HOURS. Yes that is true.
FDLs might be valid because of the lack of an oversight agency (see above post) but they are long. Look what the Americans just passed. If you look at the same catergories (2 sectors, 9am show and acclimatised for example) the FAA is about 2 hours less duty time than UAE. When you include only 60 mins show before the flight and 0, yes 0 time credit after the flight we really get screwed here. But it is good for you Bymonek.
Everyone does get their full salary each month. It is how they credit it here.
Sick time, if you call in sick they immediately put you on AD and try very hard to give you a crap trip to punish you for calling in sick. This is what I mean Bymonek but it is good for you.
I did not even mention the complete SHAFTING we took the last 2 weeks from management. That is almost as big as the Factoring.

Latest open positions offered to UAE nationals only...

Medical Benefits

Receiving an email, months after the wife has taken your very sick child to an approved hospital, in the hours that the company clinic is closed, while I am away on a company flight, that tells me that the claim is rejected.
No further information, no response to my email queries, no info over the phone.
Just rejected,
"Not covered"
"Fees will be recovered by payroll deduction"

I believe you can contact them and appeal such a decision if you feel it is not correct, at least this is what I have heard.

YA...thats exactly what I want to do on my days off, appeal, appeal, appeal.

I think its a game they play, if they draw it out long enough we will just give up.

Should not be this way, my kids have medical insurance and we should not have to fight to get it.

Nice.

170to5 - Having witnessed this first hand in Mel, I immediately started hunting for another job.... left as soon as that job came in....

This has happened to me also. Impossible to get my kids seen at SZR clinic as no appointments and advised to take them to approved clinic. Once at approved clinic and know what treatment to be given, first telephoned EK again to get confirmation that said treatment is covered. Told "of course sir" by person on telephone. Result. Couple of months later costs deducted from paycheck. Many frustrating emails which go unanswered for literally weeks and numerous telephone calls to end up with partial refund. These people are a joke. Heaven forbid that my kids get seriously ill as I have zero confidence that these people will pay up. The default answer is to reject claims if at all possible in the hope that you will not pursue the appeal process too long. Unanswered emails are part of the process to break you down. What really annoys me is that its not even as if their hands are tied as they need to satisfy a third party insurer. They are the insurer so are deliberately trying to screw their own employees.

Ex 380-800
driver

Not sure if the point you're making is a technicality regarding the wording but our duty time is chocks +30minutes. Our FDP (Flight Duty Period) stops at chocks but we're are still on duty until 30 minutes after chocks. Our rest period starts after this.

This is the same FTL scheme as used in the UK and fail to understand why so many people here still get confused between Flight Duty Period and Duty Period.

Regarding medical claims, I have a good story....

My son broke his arm about 200 meters from a hospital not on the approved EK list. I called the clinic, got an emergency referral from the nurse. After the initial treatment and follow up, I lodged a claim which was paid out a few weeks later.

Must admit this happened 3 years ago, and all departments are now suffering with cutbacks etc, so could be a different story now.

Completely Agree with you Swan Man
 

You hit the nail on the head mate.

Police isn't just third world, its also the way the state functions, especially with archaic and primitive ways of enforcing the law in courts and having a price tag for everything.

Well, you need the give the devil its due, the state lives off YOUR "service-charge" funding.

the beauty of this scheme, is that its with your money that they window dress up a deseart and dont give you any sense of ownership, all thats to dangling the carrot of "No Taxes".(!).

According to the U.A.E State Budget report released by the Ministry of Finance in Abu Dhabi, 80 percent of state (tax) revenues come from service charges and fines, so at everystage, there is an Emirati waiting for you with a big smile and an invoice, no matter where you go be it Du, Etisalat, Ejari, Wasl, SALIK or DEWA.

I did a calculation of my costs whilst i lived in Dubai, though the pay was at the standard 'crew' livable levels, service tax including Salik and other 'tag-alongs' which for me accounted close to 30 percent, and yet, no matter how long you live, there's never a permanent residency.

Dont ever make the mistake of buying a house, trusting the Arabs, you never know if they change the Governance by Royal Decree in 10 years and unrecognise the fact that a 'non-arab' owns a house in the U.A.E.

The fact that i love the most in the U.A.E, the arabs figured a way to hold everyone by the 'low-hanging-fruits' on contracts and there's no such thing as a "Pilot Union" that can ever be created!...

Mann you guys are screwed!.

One trick certain BA pilots used to do at LHR was taxi in towards the allocated stand and stop short then request a tug to tow them to the stand. This quite often took time to organise and would determin the next level of 'box' payments on long haul flights, or in some cases an extra day off because of hours limitations.

I can see the picture now, Six 380's stopped short of stands at DXB and tugs running around the apron dragging them in. Utter chaos! Think of the overtime though:ok:

380

7-21-1 lays out the 30 mins post flight rule for the Cabin Crew. I don't know why the same sentence isn't in the Flight deck rules, but that's how it is applied in practice.

There appears to be an omission in the definitions:-

Standard Reporting/Post-Flight Duty Times – Flight Crew


"The Standard Reporting Time for flight crew prior to a flight will be 1 hour
for both operating and positioning flight crew."


The post - flight duty time is missing.

The OM A always used to define it as 30 mins after on chocks.Typo I think?

How typical that items go "missing" at Emirates.
Fact remains that when we set the brakes at the end of the flight we are OFF duty. The 30 mins is only for our next duty. They can not give us another duty for 12 hours plus the 30 mins.
Funny how no one has mentioned the Factoring. The most illegal aspect of any airline in the world. How can they get away with that?

Swan, you often make some good points.

Don't ruin it by going into hysterical exageration.

They currently have leagle approval that means, including bunk time, some guys have gone up to 970 odd hours.

It stinks and it looks like it WILL eventually go, but I've flown on FTLs that allowed 1000hrs doing short-haul, multi sector, and FTPs in the States have allowed up to 1200hrs.

Now think about your average African or Russian operation...

Solution: AETNA.

I know it's out of our own pocket, but it's worth every dollar!
EK will instantly drop you or your dependants like a hot potato when you start costing, so we need genuine protection.
Check out the after EK conditions as well -> :D

Ceterum censeo Platinum esse delendam

Could not agree more! Medical Benefits is a total joke. Rude, useless people and a money grabbing scheme!

So p*ssed off about the whole thing! It fails to deliver on every level:mad:

PS: I am not moaning for the sake of moaning, believe me. These are genuine comments, unfortunately. I would not vent my frustration on PPrune otherwise!

Wiz when I said the Factoring is the most illegal thing in the Industry I meant it. When the company imposed this illegal concept it was a total F.U to us and to the rules that they think constrains them. "We will do what we want to do and no one can stop us or tell us what to do."
What part of 900 hours do they not like? How many EK pilots are over 900 hours this year and how many are over 1000 hours? Too many.
How many airlines have the Factoring concept? None that I can think of. Yes I know in the US the FAA says you can fly 1000 hours a year. However with the other rules that the FAA institutes I don't know too many pilots that are even close to the Red Line limit of 1000 hours. That is what the limit is, a Red Line. You don't run your car at the Red Line for 3 years do you? Why do airlines run the pilots at the limit?
Hopefully we will be done with this illegal concept within the year if CASA has anything to do with it. Isn't is funny that a foreign authority has to dictate to the GCAA what to do to remain legal? The joys of living in the Middle East.

"Ex 380-800
driver

Not sure if the point you're making is a technicality regarding the wording but our duty time is chocks +30minutes. Our FDP (Flight Duty Period) stops at chocks but we're are still on duty until 30 minutes after chocks. Our rest period starts after this.

This is the same FTL scheme as used in the UK and fail to understand why so many people here still get confused between Flight Duty Period and Duty Period.



This is how it works in my country and for the airline I work for....but got a question, what about the time it takes you to get from the airport to the hotel/home? is that count as part of whatever the minimun rest period is or not??? I am saying that period of the 30 mins after chocks that certainly wont take you to any hotel and rest!! :sad:

:ok:

On a lighter note, how about the weekly safety update:

- Full flap selected at 1495'
- Touchdown "towards the end of the touchdown zone"
- 1100fpm descent at 970' for 1 second

Any others I'm missing?!

Oh, and, of course, the recent glut of advertising deals, even that signed with my favourite US MLS team, the New York Soccer Bandits, or whatever the hell they're called...

An ASR because he was over-fueled by 2T.

The Horror! Too much fuel!!

Ha!
So by my calculations they plummeted an extra 7ft vs a normal 3 degree descent!

How do you actually measure 1495 feet?:ugh::ugh: This stuff in comical.

Continuing the theme- Descending in VNAV, generally out of a strong wind, descent rate at FL 280 increases to 5,200fpm for 30 seconds or so before reducing. Why was this ever considered worthy of an ASR? Where's the safety risk? Why is it still occasionally reported?

- Accidentally typed "avoid Middle and Near East" in July bid -

I think maybe some of you need to have a look at the practices of other successful airlines. A weekly digest of ASRs is a very useful thing to have access to. Many airlines hide this information from their pilots. Take it for what it is, learn something from it. If that's the worst thing they are doing to you here, then it probably ain't that bad?
I think either this thread needs to get a sense of perspective or be closed.

Muroch,

You mention an interesting thing....perspective. Have you lived in the Middle East flying the rosters these pilots do whilst facing numerous challenges everyday with your family far from home? If you have, great, you have some insight to share. If not, better to just let these guys beak off. They do have legitimate grievances. The package sold to get bums on seats changes radically once you sign on the dotted line and are committed overseas for a number of years. We all make our choices in life but, honestly, a thread about the not so good things there is "fair enough" in my estimation.
Honestly, I would say this thread is pretty restrained.

The package definitely did change. During your interview you will be told about the bidding process, contractual 3% step increases yearly, profit share, productivity pay, utility allowances that are pegged to the rental market, livable rosters, etc. Then you arrive and get a step every few years if you are lucky, no profit share, onerous rosters, housing increases 30% and allowances remain unchanged, etc. Think hard before making the plunge. No point in moving to the middle east and flying yourself into an early grave if you can't save much money in the process.