Emirates going with DEC
 

I have just heard that the CoT Boeing for EK has confirmed that management have gone back on their promise NOT to hire any DEC's. := Apparently DEC recruitment for the B777 will be formally annouced next week!

Previous DEC recruitment had an approx 75% failure rate and if this rumor is true it will be a complete reversal of the company promise to the pilot group. Looks like the Boeing fleet are in for some bad news! Watch this space!!! :{

WHEN did they promise not to employ DECs? Every time I've heard it discussed by anyone in management it has been made clear they have kept that option open.

Secondly, 75% failure rate? Why would you write such tripe.

It WAS around 20%, which is bloody high, but bear in mind they took non type rated guys previously, which they can't under the current rules.

The fact that they HAVEN'T taken DECs for the last three years hass been because it really is something flight ops would rather not do, but with the amount of training slated for the coming year it would not surprise me in the least.

It's a shame, but it has always been an option and if you joined sooner than five years ago (in which case you'd have had a command by now anyway) that was clear to all.

So, basically, you're saying what I wrote is correct, but you just had to call me a moron anyway?

Could you please specify when and by whom a promise not to employ DECs was made?

What exactley is wrong with you, sit?

The question is, will they take from Qatar ?

Ho hum, next subject please, their trainset, rules etc etc.

We are commodities here to get the job done, forget loyalty or what you think we deserve.
If you can't or haven't come to terms with those facts, then this aint the place for you, moreover, DEC's are just another way of getting the job done.
IMHO they are a band aid to help cope with the impending airframe deliveries and will have a minimal effect on those who met the current upgrade requirements.
As ever, am a mere lowly FO, so what would I know anyway?

Type rated
 

And from where will Emirates intend to recruit type rated blokes?

Direct entry
 

They'll just alter the rules to suit what they want and need to do. They've done so in the past and they'll do so in the future.
For those that remember, their stated policy last time was to only recruit those Captains that had 3000 hours on aircraft of the type the EK operated, they then almost immediately gave B737 and A320 rated guys the DEC jobs.
At the end of the day, they'll do what they need to, to ensure they are able to operate the aircraft that they have being delivered, anybody who can't understand that fact is the moron.

Can't see this as being a big deal as all FOs in the company now knew that EK hired DECs before they joined. As Falcon said Ho Hum.

The Don

:rolleyes: Fart Master, why do you think that way?!
I have a couple friends flying with QR and they have been considering that possibility for quite some time now. They are just waiting for the right time...

I'm just a Yank, so what do I know? I know AA is in Chapter 11, has a large group of p***ed B777 cappy's that might be looking. DL guys aren't too happy, either and topping off their B777 retirements for a few years could be appealing. And AC is tottering, again. So, funny DEC issue comes up while all this happening. I don't believe in coincidence, but not a conspiracy theorist, either

GF

Not EK, but just my 2 dirams

And why would this even been considered? For the most part, they are running out of "qualified" (by their standards) first officers this summer, some time. At first, "fast tracked" f/o's, that had their contracts altered after arriving, will be evaluated. Then look at f/o's that didn't quite make EK's cut for upgrade, giving them another shot. The only solution, if criteria remains the same for upgrade is either DECs or delay of delivery of airframes (might be a possiblity with 380 wing issues).

The rumour I heard was for DEC TRI/TRE, obviously type rated. There's a bunch of them doing outsourced training for us already, makes them a known entity.

Still a bummer for FO's whose courses would presumably get delayed.

Coducting training doesn't mean that the instructors are experienced on type. When my company chose Airbus we were sent to Toulouse for training. Our instructor had just finished his on type training (after Retiring from the military), underwent the SFI course and we were his first gig.

In my opinion Emirates will find it hard to find the experience on type. Given their operation, worldwide international experience should suffice. I think the type rating is the easiest part of the story ( especially if CCQ). Getting to know their way of operation is the demanding part

Thought it was strange to see some older grey hair mixed in with the usual younger recruits on the 'tour' the other day.... looks like a done deal. Should be just a supplement to the normal upgrades on the 777. Take a breathe.

And this is a surprise because?

Well first up, this may well be another beat up. I'm on leave and so not in touch, but while DEC TREs (I hadn't heard TRIs) have been mentioned, DECs have been openly stated by TCAS as not being what EK want, and yes, "SOME" of the last batch are the reason!

Good chance OzzyA380 has heard that and jumped to conclusions.

Think about it- upgrade a Captain to TRI, you need to replace him on line by upgrading an FO, then hire and train an FO to replace HIM- so three training events.

Still, as I said, they have always kept it as an option.

What would I prefer? Well, I'd prefer the aircraft to be crewed at a reasonable level so the hours aren't ridiculously high. Training is bulging at the seams and if they can find the right kind of DEC, that might help some.

At some point that will mean a perfectley deserving FO having his upgrade delayed, but the short term alternative may well be parked aircraft and the current Captains doing even longer hours.

Be great if they didn't have to, but it might be inevitable.

This should be a fund raising event. If someone posts "confirmed, from reliable source" rumor and it doesn't happen, than a 100 bucks should be placed in a fund to say, fight the global warming or something...legalize gambling...help the airbus 380 project...

You guys are still missing the point. All deserving f.o.s will be given the chance before DECs. If the upgrade criteria stays the same and in house "fast tracked" f.o.s are evaluated, then there just isn't anymore to upgrade, again given current criteria. And the fiasco of the last crop of DECs that keeps getting mentioned, is just an urban legend. Yes there were some difficulties, but no more than the current upgrade pass/fail rate.

And if it really gets to you, you can be sure what the answer would be.

sittingidly I fully agree with Wiz. Airlines operate in a cutthroat industry. If airlines today base their decisions on the affects their decisions might have on their staff's morale than they are a bunch of idiots. At the end of the day managment's role is to make the airline profitable and not let the planes parked on the ramp.

Guys and dolls appreciate that the world is changing and unfortunately we have to start adapting to the new realities.

Sitty,

Remember - its two tablets, three times a day after you eat.

Pharmacy at clinic is open tomorrow.

Theres a good chap.

f.

No suitably qualified FOs my #$$. Just eliminate the arbitrary “2500 hrs Emirates operating time and 3 years service” requirement for FOs to upgrade.

EK has a lot of highly experienced FOs with airline command experience. No matter how many EK hours & years of service they may have, it’s still more than any DEC can bring in the door.

Yes, yes, . . . I know. Every FO on property knew the rule when he joined. They also knew EK changes those rules all the time. I’m not knocking DECs. I’m contending EK hasn’t tried hard enough to promote from within.

Keep discovering...

Won't be soon. After April we'll be saying "hello, tomorrow"

If there are so many qualified FO's why do so many fail the upgrade? Don't just blame it the training. Know for a fact that it was said, by recruiting and training, that we are going to have problems upgrading these guys when they were hired and was vetoed

Out of interest, who are "these guys" you are referring too?

If they are failing the upgrade in statistically significant numbers, it begs the question who or whom deemed that these individuals are suitable and capable of passing the upgrade.
It's also worth understanding if there is a specific sylabus in place, and are these individuals devoting their time into understanding the areas that the training department, company, and GCAA deem necessary to become a competent commander?

Andy

The trainers that I refer to are the ones the company would like to have and they are apparently very experienced on type.

“We can offer our flight crew career progression. If you come here as a first officer, providing you meet all the requirements in terms of ability & experience, then the time to upgrade, the time to captaincy is relatively short. It’s probably the shortest of any airline in the world now.”

Captain Alan Stealey
Emirates Flight Deck Crew Careers recruiting DVD
Copyright 2010

I missed the bit about hiring career FOs who would have trouble upgrading. It’s good to know the recruiting & training departments featured in that DVD actually fought for the principles they stated.

As far as experienced FOs, I specifically mentioned “experienced FOs with airline command experience”. They passed upgrade somewhere and managed not to crash. Seems likely they could do the same at EK.

The funny part is, I fully understand the need for DECs under certain circumstances. In fact I’d like to run out my career as one after leaving here. As it stands today though I just happen to believe that Emirates has a lot of good FOs (including many without previous command experience) who given the chance would make good captains.

MC,
What you say is true. But that is exactly what is taking place. "Suitably qualified" f.o.s are being vetted. Think what you would consider a suitably qualified f.o. with your entire family onboard. Not here, but there are potential problems with "rushing" f.o.s to captain when there hasn't been enough experience. This is a highly charged subject at any airline.

MagicCarpet with all due respect I dont agree with your train of thought. So should one gauge if one makes a good commander by the fact that he/she have never crashed a plane or by the fact that they had passed an upgrade before with their previous airline?

I am not sure whether you are a trainer or not. From your post I presume that you are not (please I do not intend to be sarcastic by this comment) as I am more than certain that you wouldnt have posted such a comment.

After doing training for a number of years both in house and on freelance I can say that the standard I have seen varies from shocking to not having anything to say during the debrief. I would not want my wife and kids flying with such 'captains'.That's how appalling some people out there are. One wonders how they managed to pass the selection process (most probably they were sweet talkers and bull**** their way around) when they joined.

I have seen guys arrive for their upgrade training unprepared and very complacent. Their decisions in the sim are uncomprehending. F/O's about to upgrade spend ALL their cruise time reading newspapers and magazines.

MagicCarpet,

This was all argued in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 and 2007. FOs with over the EK min requirement were bypassed and DECs were hired. There was no secret made of this. If you did any research you would have easily found this out. Many new joiners read that history and then expressed what a bunch of moaners those writing it were.
So since you joined knowing this, how can you have a problem with it now? Are you a more "special" case than the FOs that were shafted?
Up until recently FOs on the BUS have been bypassed by more junior FOs on the Boeing , you knew about that, did you take a stand to protest that?
Taking it that a wide body command at many flag carrier airlines will take a lifetime, the 8+yrs for a new joiner today would still be considered quick. Its just a pity he will have to work the Ryan air roster while he waits.

I am not saying that I agree with the whole DEC thing. However, nothing has changed since any "present day" any FO joined.

The Don

.

My comments were about the min hours and time at EK. Management already dropped it from 3000 hrs to 2500 two months ago, so that particular goalpost already has wheels. I simply suggested moving it further, because I believe Emirates has done a good job of hiring many qualified FOs who will make good captains.

No, I don’t think unqualified slacker FOs should be upgraded. Everyone I have flown & trained with at EK has been first rate. Maybe I have been lucky.

Yes, I agree that DECs are needed sometimes. Remember, being a DEC elsewhere is my goal.

Yes, I did protest A330 FOs not being able to fleet transfer to the 777 to upgrade faster. I do it every chance I get. That reminds me, I’m about due for a rant on that issue.

No, I don’t think I’m special. I take my shafting right along with everyone else.

Yes, the quip about not crashing was a joke.

Guess this topic really is a raw nerve. I even pissed off the Don!

Sit,

You might want to honestly think about your posting style and content if you are upset by the likes of flion's post. You are quick on the insult (as you just did TO flion) and just as quick to take offence. It makes combativness on the part of anyone engaging you pretty much inevitable.

I did not defend the DEC policy (though exactley why it would be "not smart", as what you or I think of it isn't going to change a thing) but was counterng OzA380s assertion that EK was "Breaking it's promise" as it never made one,and pointing out that, due to poor planning or whatever, DECs MAY be inevitable (though I am now expecting this to be YET ANOTHER beat-up, as I believe they are simply looking at taking on a few experienced trainers. That would be what, six hysterical threads in the last few years, NONE of which came to fruition?)

BTW, what do you mean it is "now" in the OMA- it always has been in one form or another.

Yes that's true, it isn't what I thought you meant.

My goodness Sittingidly, you are an extremely verbose and arrogant fellow!
I, like Flion, believe you need to be on some form of medication as your rants on these forums appear to show some form of paranoia or mental illness.
For your information, EK management have always held and used, when they deemed necessary, the right to employ DECs.
While I might agree that they sometimes do things that are less than agreeable to the pilot group as a whole, your arrogant supposition that they are all stupid and that only you understand the whole situation, clearly paints you as the stupid one, not them!
I for one have had an absolute gutsful of your gibberish on these forums and I shall now use the ignore tool to prevent any more stomach acid generated by your twaddle.
End of my rant. Sorry guys

This message is hidden because sittingidly is on your ignore list.
 

Been using this as a filter for spittle-flecked hysteria for a year or so now. Highly recommended

Dunno about that Varmint, it didn't stop the present FOs from joining.

the Don

Ps. Whats Ansett?

Your life is better off not knowing anything about that, forget you read it, don't ask again and hope that you don't inadvertently find yourself in a conversation about the subject:}

'Let sleeping dogs lie' shall we!!

Fringhtok

Although you are correct with the time issue, I think there is consensus across the board that it's a matter of when and not if.