Has your UK CAA I/R lapsed by more than 7/6/3 years?
 

Mine has, which was not a problem as I have continuously maintained my Instrument Rating on an ICAO HK ATPL for the last 10 years.

That was until April 2011 when the CAA suddenly and without warning decided that ICAO I/R's didn't count anymore and that I would be required to re-sit the theoretical examinations in order to revalidate my UK I/R.

I am in the early stages of taking the CAA to task on this through the BALPA lawyers, I know that I'm not the only one affected by this sudden policy change and both myself and BALPA would like to know how many others are out there.

Please PM me or post if you are affected by this, want to share information or if by some miracle you have managed to make any progress on this issue with the lunatics at the CAA.

Cheers

I think most of us have been aware for quite a while not to allow 5 years to pass without a UK LPC ( I/R -whatever ) , how come this is such news to you ? I do sympathise by the way , I think its all a by-product of the many cowboys out there with false docs.

I've been out of the UK 8 years and didn't know about this. I'm not sure most of us are doing a UK check every 5 years either.

I don't think it's as well known as you make out, few people I have mentioned it to had no idea. I only found out by pure chance...
Neither the CAA or BALPA for those who still subscribe have made it clear to the expats who hold a current UK license, which considering how much you pay to keep your license valid and up to date is disgraceful.
Good luck with your case, I am sure that they are many in the same boat.
Bokkie

By chance I was in Belgrano last week for another issue , and not sure the rather gorgeous popsie who dealt with my query was state-of-the-art when it came to regs , had to go off and bring back the 'bible' to make her point even though I thought there was more than one way to skin a cat with regard to the wording .
I think they all believe that we spend our spare time ( if we have any ) keeping up to date with their endless amendments.

This is a change, the rules were as long as you operate on an ICAO license then all privileges of the UK license are honored and the first time you renew the UK one everything is reinstated. I know a one off approval was issued to some TREs to conduct UK tests but that has stopped because the CAA said that it was nor necessary. Now there are no current/approved CAA TREs in EK.
The only way to renew is to go to the UK and Find a Sim. and a CAA TRE oh and about £1500.

For those who are in this position but are unfamiliar with the history, the requirement to re-sit the previously passed theoretical exams if your IR has lapsed by more than 7 years has existed for at least the last 10 years.

LASORS the UK CAA publication detailing licencing requirements has stated in successive updated versions during this time that if you hold an IR on another ICAO licence it fulfills the criteria of having an IR inside 7 years thereby eliminating the requirement *to re-sit the theoretical examinations.

In April 2011 LASORS 2010 was published and without prior warning the CAA removed this condition effectively rendering many license holders unqualified overnight.

There is no other outside legislation driving this decision, JAR-FCL has not changed since 2005, EASA does not come into force until April 2012 at the earliest, this is purely an arbitrary UK CAA action.

Other JAA member states such as France and Germany accept IR's from ICAO licences so the CAA cannot claim to be merely falling into line with other countries.

Aside from the fact that as a responsible regulator the CAA are obliged to give people advance warning of major policy changes such as this, sitting theoretical examinations for a 2nd time serves no practical purpose and offends common sense.

Discrimination also becomes a factor because the CAA cannot point to any differences in standards that would legitimize their sudden refusal to grant an IR without sitting exams having continuously maintained an IR on another ICAO licence.

Neither can they reconcile the contradiction that I'm qualified to fly a HK registered aircraft in UK airspace but not a UK registered aircraft. Remember I'm objecting to re-sitting theoretical exams that had questionable vocational value as a student, not carrying out a CAA IR and skills test.

Having failed to appeal to the CAA's better *judgement I am now pursuing this matter through legal avenues.

I was on the phone to them yesterday as my licence expired last month. I put the A330 on my UK/JAA licence a few years ago whilst at EK. They advised I could renew my licence on the back of a 330 PPC conducted in EK within the last 5 years.

As I now fly the 380, I also asked if that could be put on licence. The answer was yes as long as I had 500 hours P1 time on type.

interesting SB, I am in much the same position as you, so would be interested to see how you get on

Sandblaster , I think you might find that you have always been able to put a current type overseas on yr UK Licence , as long as it is within 5 years etc , it will also be the old Part 2 type rating , and , of course , you cannot exercise the privileges of , say , an A380 TR in UK until you have had an LPC conducted by a UK TRE - not much changed really.
Still worth doing a UK LPC every 5 years anyway , £1500 well spent I say.

Well; I'm buggered.... Nine and a half years since my last LPC/OPC and ten years since my UK medical:{ Guess I'm stuck in the 'pit:E:E

No way I'm doing those theory exams again at Belgrano - biggest waste of time and money in my career!!!!!!

Amen to that. Worst days of my life. I really have no idea what is wrong with the CAA.

I guess it has all to do with EASA coming into effect next year

Christ, just read LASORS 2010 and it looks like we're screwed..........not happy.

SANDBLASTER, are you implying that if you have done an EK PPC/IR test within the last 5 years i.e. since 2006 then the UK CAA will allow you to do a UK PPC/IR test with a UK examiner without having to do the ground exams?

One would hope that EASA makes licensing policy easier. One change that I do approve of is EASA licenses will have lifetime validity. Thereby doing away with with the CAA cash cow procedure of having to renew your licence every 5 years. :D

My last 330 PPC was 18 months ago conducted by an EK TRE. I paid to get the 330 put on part 1 of my UK/JAA licence in April 06.My licence ran out in September. When I was on the phone to the Belgrano, they pulled up my records on their computer and indicated it was no problem to renew my licence using my 330 rating.

When enquiring about the 380 rating the inference was that I only needed 500 hours P1 time to include it. I'm not sure that's entirely correct and think I would need a UK TRE to conduct a skills test on the 380 as I did for the 330. That could prove to be more of a challenge!!

As things stand I will go to LGW in the next couple of months and try and renew with the 330 rating.

Will report back!

Ta much, my UK ATPL expired about 3 months ago, it had the 330 on it from the 1179 I did here in the EK sim. Like you I have been on the 380 for a couple of years, so would be nice to get it renewed with the 330 and eventually the 380

A couple of Q's;

Does anyone have a copy of LASORS 2008?

Sandblaster; while the CAA says that you can put the A330 on Part 1 of your UK licence, did that include an IR as well, or is it just the type itself that you've put onto it?

Hey all,

UK licence lapsed about 2 years ago, and finally got around to doing something about it a year later, so it had expired for a year.

Was told I needed a current type on licence to renew, difficult as in Dubai for quite a while, but able to put B777 on UK/JAA licence with 500 hrs P1 (log book verified by EK), and a LPC with a JAA licenced TRE. There is one at EK, although not UK licenced, which didn't matter. The other proviso was a current Class 1 medical. If that had expired for more than 5 years, an initial was needed back in Gatwick.

That was it, pay the licence fee, and a brand new JAA licence delivered to DXB about a month later.

Good luck co-ordinating sim time and TRE, we just booked it on our own - about USD500 per hour each at EK.

There are 2 requirements to renew a UK licence:

1)Current medical
2)Current type OR class. (Type: B777/A340 etc OR Class: Single Engine Piston Land)

I went back to Blighty, did a couple of hours in a puddle jumper, followed by a skills test, and Roberts your Fathers Brother, a shiny new JAR licence.

Bit nervous about the UK IR being lapsed for over 7 years though. :uhoh:

Point of this thread is that if your UK licence (JAA or UK) has expired by MORE THAN 7 YEARS you now have to resit the IR theory exam to renew it.
Those of you that have renewed before the seven year point could perhaps refrain from telling us how easy it was to renew before reaching the magic seven year point!
How long before we have to resit plotting, air law or perf A?
This is a ridiculous ruling and the thin end of an enormous wedge.
It needs to be removed at the earliest opportunity.
Citizens of some other nations need only to be able to spell B777 or B747 to have it included on their licence (EG South Africa).
Why on earth should pilots flying full time for ICAO operators, many operating to JAA rules even if not JAA members, have this crazy rule applied.
Can we please avoid self congratulatory thread creep and concentrate on the problem here?
It would seem that after 40 years of continuous aviation, including 6 monthly renewals to international standards, my UK licence is quietly going up in smoke!
WTF is going on?
Good luck to anyone who is working towards a review of this ruling.

Guys, I think we're mixing 2 different topics here.

The thread was started WRT an IR renewal, NOT your licence renewal.

As discussed, all you need to have a valid licence is a medical and any aircraft type rating on it, but what the thread starter is talking about is your IR. You can have a current licence without an IR rating.

Again, does anyone have a copy of LASORS 2008, because as Peeproone said, if the UK CAA arbitrarily removed the ICAO rule then I think there is a case to be had.

The UK CAA will stop issuing JAR-FCL and start issuing EASA Part-FCL licences from 1st July 2012.

The new EASA licence will be valid for life, so worth the effort to get it.

The UK national licence will eventually become obsolete for public transport aircraft from spring 2014.

Guys

This ruling also concerns anyone who thinks their civvie IR is being maintained by holding an unrestricted green instrument rating. Beyond 7 years, it is not. Less than 7 years, you're OK. Does anyone understand the logic of the rule change? How does one lodge a complaint or appeal against the CAA?

Spring 2014 ? Excellent , I will be 65 in March of that year !!

380 on UK JAA Licence
 

As I understand........LOL...the IK regs, unless there is a A380 on the UK register, you can not add the type to your UK Licence.

The logic being: with no airframe on the register there is no need for pilots to be approved to operate non existant airframe....

glf

Any update on any correspondance with the UK CAA...?

Surely someone must have a copy of LASORS 2008 filed away in their computer somewhere?

Is there a possibility that the new EASA regulations will do away with the UK CAA's ruling?

I have just been burned by this "7 year " rule. Having just completed a JAR LPC renewal to convert my UK national ATPL to a UK JAR ATPL following lengthy conversations with CAA regarding the renewal requirements I was stunned when the gentleman at the 'same day' service desk at Gatwick refused my application.
What really peeves me is that with all the discussion regarding the date of my last LPC which was more than 5 years ago on my UK licence and having been reassured (by CAA) that the same type rating on my ICAO licence expired less than 5 years meant that I just needed to complete a JAR LPC renewal To renew/convert my licence - not once did the "helpful" CAA rep mention or suggest that the date of my last IR Renewal might be an issue.
I am now several thousand out of pocket with no licence to show for it.
I dont have a problem with rules but for god sake surely the CAA have some obligation to advise their licence holders of significant changes like this.
I checked again today on the CAA website and there is NO mention of this in the FAQ section of FCL Renewal, all it talks about is the 5 year rule for the type rating.
BTW I was advised by the "helpful" chap in Gatwick that I now need to resit 7 exams and carry out a IR flight test under CAA supervision to regain my ATPL.
The 7 year rule in question is described in LASORS section E Page 7.
There is no suggestion or reference to this rule in LASORS section F which deals with licence renewal.
Unbelievable......

88,

I am sorry to hear your story, to be honest it's a disgrace, as you say when such a big change in licensing takes place the CAA should have an obligation to inform the license holders or in the very least offer some sort of grandfather rights.

You have have spent a lot of money both now and when you gained your license, in the process contributing to the salary of these incompetent civil servants, the least they could do is treat you like the professional that you are.

Imagine the guilds of Doctors or Dentists doing the same?

I wish you good luck.

PeeProone, sent you a PM with some info...

7 years IR rule
 

Dear 88in,
Sorry to hear about your bad "luck" with the CAA and thank you for sharing it with us! I think you save me and other people from "burning our money"...

Could you confirm once again that, the reason the CAA did not convert your UK national ATPL into JAR, because your last IR on it was expired by more than 7 years?

Now my question:
What about if a pilot flying the same a/c type (with that endorsed on the UK ATP) but with an ICAO licence? Or what about if the UK national ATP is valid but the IR has elapsed by more than 7 years- an LPC with a ukTRE would be sufficient?

Thanks to all you guys for your posts !

Loss of IR qualification after seven years
 

Hi Guys. Myself and a number of my colleagues are directly affected by the 2010 change to Lasors. I renewed my UK ATPL to a JAA licence FCL ATPL in April 2009 on the back of a SEP Land Certificate of revalidation. I have been out of the UK working for EK on the B777 for approaching ten years. Like many people the various ratings on my JAA ATPL have expired by more then five years but I presumed that this would not be a problem as I could revalidate on my return to the UK, and I was able to renew my licence on a PA28 based on the SEP class.
At the time I renewed there was no mention of the fact that I should renew my IR or lose it after seven years. Now I read that in order to renew I will have to complete all the written exams again and take a flight test with a CAA examiner. This is ridiculous based on the fact that I and others currently fly four hundred people over the city of london in visibility sometimes down to 75 metres on a regular basis perefctly legally and in accordance with our ICAO valid licence.
The Training we recieve here is based on JAA and certainly meets the same standards or higher as if I was still based in the UK.
To put this in perspective. Can you imagine going abroad as a Surgeon and then returning to the UK to find that you had to take your medical exams again and return to being a House DR. This would be blown away by the Medical authority's let alone the unions.
I recently flew with a Dutch FO who stated that to put the 777 on his licence required him showing the Dutch authorities evidence of his last PPC and logbook hours and the rating was placed in his licence.
I personally believe the CAA is obligated to inform licence holders of significant changes to Licencing requirements which is why they are telling us all about the new EASA requirements coming in to effect in April. They did not do the same in this IR case.
I presume there must be many pilots in various company's around the globe affected by this decision. Maybe rejoining BALPA and taking action together is the way forward.
Any suggestions from those affected will be appreciated.

And if you had stayed in BALPA as an "Associate Member" for a reduced fee would you have been informed of these changes? I doubt it.
Is Balpa interested today in EK pilots...I doubt it except for your subscriptions.

This UK ATPL licence renewal issue affected me many years ago in Mrs Thatchers time...
After one visit to the Belgardo building which I felt reeked of civil service inefficiency and mentality I decided the British flying licence system was all a hopeless mess and not as Gulf Air preached... cost effective...this time for little me.
I forgot about my hard earned British ATPL as i thought it was going to become a money pit and a worry... I am not sorry I did.
It is not easy flying hard as an expat. and also trying to DIY your licence in a country like England...it costs you mega bucks and is frustratingly stressful.
Tell them to shove it.:ok::ok:

Frankie, I am interested in a collective action. The situation is simply ludicrous! Am rated 330/340 and 380 - but because my licence states P2 on it - can I transfer a rating to my UK licence? A resounding 'NO' so far from the CAA unless I can get a letter from the GCAA stating that we are trained to P1 standards (trained to a standard AT LEAST as good as the UK in EK). Have only just found out, too, that my IR will be under threat in 2 years because of this thread....!!!

The problem seems to stem from the fact that neither side attempts to understand what the other is saying and WE are caught out in the middle! The UK issues the same rating to LHS and RHS and the UAE issues a P2 to the RHS. I think that the CAA thinks P2 means that we are cruise pilots! The GCAA just seems to sit there and not attempt to understand the problem. Meanwhile there are F/Os flying the 330 for British Airlines who have done the same course as me and are doing the same job as me and in the same bit of airspace as me and yet they are rated by the CAA and I have to do groundschool etc etc. For heavens sake, I did the manufacturers course on the aeroplane - what more are they going to want added?!!!

Rant over but consider me 'in' on any action.

Thanks 40/80 and Captain Smiffy for your respective replies. I agree that this situation is ludicrous. I intend to try and seek some common sense from the CAA but I am not hopeful. Isn't it funny that we are always being told to think outside the box in aviation and yet the regulator is clearly unable to do this. No one who is actually reading this particular thread is likely to be flying without a current instrument rating as a current professional pilot but most are operating under an ICAO system of licencing.
I plan to firstly visit the CAA in April and seek clarification. If I am only directed at Lasors I will write to someone higher up the food chain. The idea of a collective response from pilots in this position working for foreign companies is appealing but how do you establish who is affected and communicate. I will start by trying to find out who of the british pilots in EK is affected by this situation. I already know of at least five but their will be many more.
If anyone wishes to PM me with their details we can start collating a database of who is affected and whether anything can be done.
otherwise it is staying in the sandpit till retirement :ugh::ugh::ugh::{ or back to going through all those exams again.:confused::yuk: Surely it must be easier now we have internet and you can get practise questions!!!!!
Will update if I get any more info.

Re:CAA reply
 

Hi Guys

I am in a similar situation to most of you with my IR in the UK being more than 7 years ago, this is the letter i received from the nice lady in the CAA :

Thank you for your e-mail received regarding the renewal of your licence

Requirements and documentation for renewal of your licence can be found in LASORS, which is a self-assessment guide to UK and JAR Flight Crew Requirements, under section G5. I have attached a link below for your reference.

LASORS: LASORS 2010 | Publications | CAA - Please also refer to 'Amendments to LASORS 2010' within this link.

Once these requirements have been met the following documents are required upon application: -

* Application Form SRG1102
* A copy of your current JAR Class 1 Medical Certificate
* A copy of your certificate of test page confirming that a current type/class rating has been held in the last 5 years.
* Current fee of £136.00 on application form SRG1187

If your licence has expired, please ensure you complete section 4a 'Date of last Pilot-In-Command flight (under privileges of UK licence)'.

Please note if the Instrument Rating on your UK National or JAA Licence has expired by more than seven years, please also refer to section E1.5 regarding instrument rating renewal.

With regards to transferring your A330 from your Hong Kong licence I recommend you look at LASORS section F9.1. If your A330 is Co-Pilot or P2 please refer to LASORS F9.2:

LASORS: LASORS 2010 | Publications | CAA - Please also refer to 'Amendments to LASORS 2010' within this link.

Once the above requirements have been met the following documents are required: -

* Application form SRG1119
* Current fee of £119.00 on application form SRG1187
* Original Logbook
* Original ICAO licence, or a copy certified by your Operating Company

EU European legislation (EASA) is due to come into force on the 8th April 2012 which is going to change the pilot licensing rules and will affect the privileges of many existing licence holders. The current UK Military Accreditation Scheme and ICAO ECAC licence conversions (LASORS G1.5 'Note 1' and 'Note 2') will cease on the 8th April 2012. Any UK Military or ICAO ECAC licence Conversion applications received after the 7th April 2012 will not be issued under the current arrangements.

All of the current information that we have is available on our website. Please refer to the link below:

EASA Updates and FAQ's - Licensing and Training Standards | EASA | Safety Regulation

To view sections of LASORS or other CAA documents from the web site you will need a copy of Acrobat Reader on your computer. Depending on the speed of your computer and Internet connection, it may take a short while to download a document before you are able to read it.

If you have any queries relating to this email, please do not hesitate to visit our web site at Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation or alternatively contact our Licensing Team on 01293-573700.

Kind regards


Miss Natalie Goodman
Licensing Officer
Licensing & Training Standards
Civil Aviation Authority UK


i have joined BALPA and they have sent letters to the CAA regarding this matter, and have had the usual CAA response. Their legal department has been in touch with EASA on this matter as they feel the CAA is interpreting the rules most stringently than other states.

Its only 24 GBP to join BALP if you are outside the UK, maybe if we can get as many people as possible to join the action we can get something done about it.

I maybe won't use the licence again, but i spent enough getting it in the first place and it seems a shame to let it go because of this.

Excuse the butting in on the ME thread but I am a Brit working in SE Asia and am rapidly approaching both the 5 year I/R limit and the calendar expiry of my JAA ATPL. Question is, if I can renew my JAA ATPL for an EASA licence before the 5 year expiry on my I/R, do I still have to do an LPC in a JAA sim with JAA TRE or does the issue of an EASA licence remove this ridiculous requirement?

Good luck with the collective action.:ok:

I've actually spoken to a lawyer about this as I'm affected by the CAA stupidity. There is a precedent, the name of which I've forgotten, that referrs to 'high handed administrative changes'. Let's see..

I plan to take a class action to the CAA if they won't come up with a reasonable work around on this, based on the fact that there was no notification of this significant change. All I'm going to ask them is, subject to inspection of our ICAO licences/airline, to give all the affected pilots a period of amnesty in which to renew our IR's.

SBY for a heads up for a facebook group so we can collectively discuss this.

I will also be going to visit the morons in April to discuss this with them. I am trawling thru the ANO and JAR regs as we speak.

Airwaves, I might be wrong, but the IR renewal issue has nothing to do with the info the CAA gave you. All they are discussing is your ATPL issue, not your IR. They are 2 seperate issues. Except for the fact that you need an IR to have an ATPL??

FM.

And for those of us not on Facebook????????

WK you got me there...possibly a Yahoo group then?

Good Job FM!

We all appreciate your good work and standing by ...:ok: