DAE Flight Academy: Students' feedback please!
 

Hi there..

"Dubai Aerospace Enterprise Flight Academy"

Is anybody here a current student at DAEFA?? I'm looking for feedback from students about:

-Screening/Assessment process (I heard that they need a math/physics genius to pass the initial exams!!!)

-Quality of training

-The environment in general


I appreciate your help

DAEFA
 

Hey Silver5,

I can confirm that their screening process is pretty rigorous and it's beyond what you would expect of any FTO in the Middle East (which is definitely a good thing!)

It's a way of reducing risk to the flight school and yourself. The flight school don't want your hard earned money if they think (a) Your not going to cope with the intensive training, or (b) They believe you'll have little success with becoming a first officer with the airlines after you complete your training.

The selection process and what it entails is available [here]

All the best :ok:

Logic
 

Yes Aero..I think you are right buddy

& one more important thing to add here is the issue of reputation...since it's a new academy with a brand new training concepts, they should be doing that to guarantee the distinction they promise to achieve..

I would be glad if any1 around here shares some insider's info about it..!

One simple fact: DAE chose the eclipse 500 as a training aircraft. This is enough to be skeptical about this academy's strategy. They probably have fantastic people but to me this simple choice is a big concern about the technical knowledge of the decision makers.

Hi there,
I am booking a tour with DAEFA,and I have a lot of question regarding their training.However,i was concerned regarding math and physics exams. Its just becasue I havent practiced these subjects for very long time. They told me to buy O-Level revision books,and should be sufficient to pass these subjects.However,what i understood is that there isnt failing as such,but if they see that you are weak in these subjects,they recommend 2 month foundation course(which costs $5000).
I'll keep you guys up dated after my visit.
PEACE!

sispanys ria

so what's ur point exactly?? the eclipse 500 is their A/C for the multi-engine rating and the type rating..in my view, I see this very superior vs. any other pilot training scheme...I can't really see why it looks skeptical or creating big concern to you??

please elaborate...

thanks

Choice of aircraft
 

Sispanys,

On the contrary, I found their choice of aircraft to be rather impressive. Allot of the schools in the Middle East have had performance issues with their aircraft for the simple fact that most old & dying PA28s, C152/172s under perform in this part of the world because of the the weather being so hot & humid. Allot of schools have had to actually call off flights due to conditions exceeding aircraft climatic restrictions. You cant afford to have down time when your on an intensive integrated course of training.

The Cirrus SR22 is what they use for primary single engine flight training. It's fitted with a Continental IO-550 which delivers 310HP and is an all glass-cocpit aircraft. I don't think anyone is going to be complaining!

The more advanced portions of flight training (CPL/IR) is conducted on a twin engined (turbine) Eclipse 500 which has just recently won European EASA approval. This is unheard of within the realms of civil flight training. You never hear of ab-intio cadets who experience 50 hours worth of real jet time before they even start their Type Rating.

There's a good article about DAE in a magazine called Civil Aviation Training.

"Allot of the schools in the Middle East have had performance issues with their aircraft for the simple fact that most old & dying PA28s, C152/172s under perform in this part of the world because of the the weather being so hot & humid"

,Aero, that is nonsense. perhaps you'd like to name these schools with their 'old and dying' PA28s, 152s and 172s and when they have been grounded because of 'climatic' conditions.

Restrictions
 

Three months ago you posted a message on PPRuNE telling someone that you understand that Fujairah Aviation's diamond aircraft "rarely fly for two months during summer as they struggle with the temperatures."

I can also confirm that QAC have also had no-fly weeks during the summer months due to soaring temperatures. If I'm not mistaken, the PA28s climatic restriction is posted as ISA+30, which would equate to 45°C. Temperatures can easily exceed this during the summer months.

As for aging fleet, it's no secret that the operational performace of aircraft slowly deteriorate over their life span. Quite a few FTOs in the Middle East have aircraft that were built back in the early 70s making them 35+ years old.

Cheerio.

Ok I will elaborate little bit more.

Like any other aircraft the Eclipse will have to face the demanding climatic conditions of the region. Have a look at its performances and tell me if you would recommend it for multi-engine training (N-1 operations).

Now the second issue concerns the current situation of the manufacturer. Some serious aviation consultants seems convinced the production will stop within 6 months as it will probably face similar bankruptcy problems as Adams and Grob. While Cessna & Embraer can afford to develop such products thanks to their strong experience and wide product range (balancing development costs), developing a full production of a new jet aircraft was quite a tough challenge. With all respect to these ambitious developpers, their unrealistic vision of the situation, encouraged by enthusiastic (and irresponsible) operators lead them to a dead end.
Day Jet sold 28 of its Eclipse for $500k each while the manufacturer had to adjust its prices by almost 1 Million USD. In the meantime the Turkish MyJet is having 200% trust in this program and orders 120 aircrafts for its air taxi program...

The VLJ industry is suffering from a highly speculative marketing just like the real estate industry in the UAE. The ending will probably be similar as all the actors prefers to keep denying the reality while the curtain is closing. There must be one very happy guy who enjoyed loads of commissions by recommending this machine in the Middle East but I wouldn't like to be one of the buyers.

Once again it's only my personnal point of view. I would have recommended turboprops for a flight academy due to much higher flat ratings in hot climate and lower fuel consumptions. I guess no other flight academy in the world made a similar decision... it must mean something.

Ah .Aero so you really mean the Diamonds and not the Pipers and Cessnas. Then why didn't you say so in the first place? Which Middle East training aircraft were built in the early seventies? You say there are quite a few - perhaps you can point them out. And maybe you can post the POH entry that limits PA28 ops to ISA+30.

DAE
 

Sispansys,

Eclipse Aviation like so many other companies out there are having a hard time with their finances. I don't know what the financing agreement was between DAE & Eclipse Aviation or what the agreed timetable for delivery was, but I hear first delivery is earmarked for Q1/2009 ?

EA are optimistic about the influx of orders they'll now be able to secure from Europe as they've just received their EASA certification and according to press statements, employees are back at work again. I believe their new business model relies less on orders from air taxi start ups.

As for performance, both the SR22 G3 & the EA500 will out-perform most other training aircraft on the market. They both have great climb rates and cruise speeds, and they'll have no problem getting above mucky weather rather quickly. No more waiting to get to 5,000 ft to practice stalls - no more waiting to get to your designated training area.

Don't forget, the EA500 will only be carrying a student & an instructor with no baggage. Factory seating options are 5 or 6 places.

DAE obviously have deep pockets here! :}

Well once again, if this was the case I guess other flight academies should have considered it, especially when you can get one for $500k. Seriously speaking, we're talking about high rpm jet engines which would be running almost all the time (ISA+15) at 100% of their temperature limit in a sandy/dusty environment. I really wonder how these machines will perform an engine out go around in mid august after 3 years of intensive usage and how much the engine overhaul and HSI will cost. As for the air taxi, these engines (jets) are made to run at high/cold levels on a long range to be competitive. I don't see how they could provide an economical improvement being run in ISA+25 low levels short legs (should you compare it to modern turboprops).

Aircraft choice
 

A fleet of Senecas or Seminoles would not have been the answer to what DAE were looking for. The airlines have been saying they want pilots who have been trained in an airline orientated environment, with glass cockpit exposure. DAE wants to take that a step further and introduce real jet time from the start. These EA500s are going to be put to good use.

I know the academy are talking to aviation authorities in the region as they plan on flying abroad with their EA500s. This was something they reiterated. They want their students to fly pressurized jets, charting international airways, crossing FIR boundaries, and landing at foreign airports. What flight school offers such experiences as part of their CPL/IR training?

Traditional multi-engined trainers would simply not deliver. DAE are taking a different approach to flight training and they've obviously got the money to do so.
SR22s don't come cheap either - they cost over $1/4 million a pop!

I don't get your point. Crossing FIRs and landing in foreign (other arabic) countries have nothing to do with the main purpose of the CPL-IR (such as using a pressurization system). As a matter of fact I used to fly international destinations during my CPL-IR in Europe, DAE is not gonna initiate a revolution. Mixing up CPL-IR, mutli engine and jet training will not nescessarly mean pilots would be better airbus pilots with 250 TT than "classic" students.

Beside this, the aircraft is limited to 48 celsius and using the pressurization will probably badly deteriorate the performances you may have heard about the Eclipse. I really want to see its EO RoC in summer and how long the engines will last. Lets first wait for the aircrafts to be delivered.

As you said DAE must really have a lot of money to spend in an aircraft having a $2 million yearly depreciation...

LimitMan
 

:=:=:=And maybe you can post the POH entry that limits PA28 ops to ISA+30. :=:=:=
Cant find it,
The limitation is for human not machine,so what is the human limit where this thing is?

Where are we now?!
 

Hey guys...wait a second!

you all have very good technical data here...and this is really amazing coz I think only limited number of people in the middle east are heavily invovled in this sort of info...but this is not my point really...I just wish that we don't drift away from the main question...however, all your inputs are still highly appreciated

Cheers

DAE
 

Sispanys,

Your quite right in your suggestion. Their integrated course (now GCAA approved) was actually modeled on existing integrated ATP(a) criteria found in Subpart D of JAR-FCL1. The completed curriculum of training at DAE will actually surpasses JAR training requirements by approximately 20-30%.

The primary objectives of the CPL/IR will still be met during the course of training.
Secondary to this will be the experiences you gain having a acheived those objectives using modern and complex aircraft, the EA500 in this case.

Now I'm nothing more than a bystander here. Only time will tell if their 'system' of training impresses or otherwize.

Aim Hi,

All powerplants have climatic restrictions on both ends of their 'operational' ranges.
You wouldn't fly a C172 in -20°C temperatures without a winterization kit installed would you?

The problem is that I don't think they will issue you with a JAR license... so I don't really get the point of working harder than for a JAR license if it's only to get a GCAA one (which you can easily obtain by validating a US license...).
I would instead recommend to get a JAR CPL-IR...because I'm not sure the GCAA CPL-IR would be helpful in Europe.

I don't think DAE is gonna install air conditioning units in front of their Eclipses engines air intakes. What is the point in investing in ISA+10 flat rated low thrust engines when you can get something working fine at higher temps ?

SilverR5 you're right but I think this interesting conversation is also related to the academy...

DAE
 

Simple answer? Forward planning. It makes good business sense.

Voluntarily sculpting your syllabi to meet that of JAR ensures:

- The licencing requirements are in line with local regulations. Allot of the NAAs/ANSPs in the Middle East such as (DGCAM, BCAA, GCAA) are adopting JAA-FCL & JAR-OPS and implementing them into the local statutory books.

- Potential for JAA approval in the future. This as you know already exists around the world in countries like Australia (WAAC), Canada (MFC) etc. The regulatory processes needed for such approvals are greatly reduced when the FTO in question has voluntarily aligned it's OPS+REGS to comply with that of JAR from day one. When DAE becomes a JAA approved FTO in the future (which I know is being considered at the moment), this will open them up to the European market and they'll be competing alongside other JAA approved schools.

- Choice of licensing streams. If they do become JAA-approved, they will likely offer GCAA licences alongside JAA-issued ones.

- Ease of conversions in the interim. DAE graduates with GCAA fATPLs might wish to convert their licences to a JAA fATPLs in the future. This process will be easier when you have been trained to JAA criteria. Someone who has trained to the tune of FARs for example might find this conversion process a little more "involved".

Well for the time it's still "easy" to get the GCAA ATP through the FAA one. Should you consider a JAA standard training today I would recommend to get it in Europe instead of a speculative frozen GCAA one. In the mean time going for a quick FAA ATP then GCAA conversion when needed will not cost that much and will give you the unfrozen license...

In my opinion, as a part of the CPL-IR it is quite more educative to experience some real weather, icing and other "classic" procedures (NDB, restricted airports etc...) instead of being vectored for ILS approaches on 3500 m long runways in clear sky, no wind, no rain, no terrain etc...

Hey DoggyDip!!
 

Sorry mate...I've almost dropped ur message...!!! obviously it's very important one:ok:

Well..I'll be looking forward to getting the updates as soon as you come back

All the best ! ;)

International routes
 

International routes to be flown with the EA500 are:

RAK - to - Mumbai, India

RAK - to - Athens, Greece

RAK - to - Jeddah, Saudi

RAK - to - Muscat, Oman

I'm still not convinced of the educative benefits of overflying 1000 Nm of water to go to Mumbai but after all people can choose their academy.

When are those Eclipse supposed to be delivered ?

Delivery
 

Hey you DAEFA guys...

Where are you?!!:confused:

it seems that no one of them ever knew about PPRuNe!!

or more interestingly they might be having no chance to comb their hair even!!!

NOW that the factory is gone bankrupt are they going to deliver the airplanes?

any feedback from the students there?

Yeah I knew that Eclipse Aviation has filed for bankruptcy, and Cirrus has furloughed hundreds of manufacturing workers until January...One can't tell how is it gonna affect the future of the starter academy!

still not a word has came out from anyone there...strange, isn't it! :ugh:

Chapter 11
 

Guys, Eclipse Aviation aren't going anywhere. They have filed for Chapter 11 which allot of companies do when it's crunch time and necessary to protect value & reduce debt. Companies are still allowed to operate (with limitation) under Chapter 11.

Full press statement here

DAE have little leverage over the financial well being of their suppliers. I'm assuming they'll have no choice but to lease training aircraft from a 3rd party if EA500 deliveries don't materialize in time.

Mike.Park
 

Yeah you are right about chapter 11.. to be accurate, we should say "filing for bankruptcy protection".

But we are still at the same conclusion..or better say "the same speculations"...and we don't know what kind of limitations those guys will face at EA.

I wonder how do they manage to conduct the training currently...may be they already have the Cirrus single-engine A/C, but what about the ME?? are they still committed to train students on the Eclipse 500?? On time??
I think that the original delivery date of EA500 is Feb2009..not sure about the date but I hope it's true...even if leased, this would be a satisfactory option..at the end I would love to know that they move forward according to plan.

I don't think it is an immediate crisis for those who are already at the flight school.
The school already have their single engined aircraft (SR22), and they also have their B737 simulator & their flight training devices.

Believe it or not, most of your ab-initio training is conducted on a single engined aircraft so I don't think the current cadets are anywhere near to starting their multi-engined phase of flight training.

According to their website:

135 Hours in the Cirrus SR22
66 hours on Flight Training Devices
50 Hours in the Eclipse EA500 Jet

To my knowledge, knowing a few of the upper managment people at DAEFA, they are considering many different strategies with the latest developments at Eclipse. Of course leasing from a third party is an option, another would be to scrap Eclipse and go with a different VLJ all together. Before anyone reply's to this saying what other jet's are there. I am sure they are talking with Cessna and companies like that. As for replies from people within the company concerning the developments at the Flight Academy, come on people, read some of these posts. It is almost ignorant to assume that they are keeping silent on here. Isn't it a little funny to see stuff that isn't posted anywhere online or in any of their marketing material quoted on here?? As for the health of the Flight Academy, they seem to be almost over the hump of "start up" and finally starting to accelerate into normal day-to-day operations. There have been multiple students coming in for screening and the pipeline for cadet intake is filling pretty fast. Of course, as with any business it is not as fast as people would have assumed it would be, but give it time. Rome was not built in a day you know.

As for the ciriculum: Yes there is a lot of FAA and JAA theory built into it. That is why they have brought in instructors from all over the world. The theory of instruction there should be based on Scenario and some of the instructors there already have a good deal of experience with it. From other schools that I have seen that implement this type of training, it is based more on the students and less on the instructors themselves. Think of it as a guided approach to learning, putting more of the trial and error side of learning back into it. Obliviously they shouldn't let things go too far, but that is the best way to learn. For more info on scenario based training, look at the FAA-FITS information available at www.faa.gov or Cirrus themselves use this type of training when it comes to training new owners and Cirrus Standardized Instructor Pilots (CSIP's) and they have a lot of good infor on there site as well. The biggest thing about flying routes, for everyone who say's its a waste of valuable training time, is that you will be flying changing scenarios on every portion. You will have a set number of failures to acheive, a set number of tasks to perform and always, judgment skills are being formed. Working in a two crew environment helps to bridge the gap between Traditional training (Manoeuvers Based) and the Airlines. It's actually a good concept, I just think they may have made a huge mistake trying to do this in Ras Al Khaimah. Some of the new traning ideas coming out on the market, most of them can be found on the EATS (European Aviation Training Symposium) website, will or at least should be the goal of this and many other flight schools. Of course, all of that is left to be seen.

As for the Ground School: All I see on here in almost every thread they anyone has put is that the ground school is useless because you only get GCAA Lics. Well, do you really think a flight school is out to screw you so badly as to make you do something as hard core, and personally as useless as all imagination, if they didn't have something in the works with the JAR authority to allow them to write the tests either off site or even in building?? Come on, that is cruel and unusual punishment if that's the case. Of course, as with anything else in this world, you will always be certified by the authority in which you train. Oxford and Lufthansa send cadets over to the states to build up there flight time so they can do the tests, but they always bring them back here to do the checkrides so why is it such a shock to you guy's that, if you train in the GCAA you get GCAA lics? I'll bet the overall goals of DAEFA is to one day have a training alliance setup with a provider in the JAR World so that when you are ready for the checkride and you have written the tests, you will have the opportunity to go there and do the checkrides. Or at least this is how I would have set things up and will be extremely disappointed if this is not the case over there and then I will have nothing but bad things to say.

I hope this helps a little to you guys, oh, and one more thing. What the hell do you mean "I guess those people don't know about PPruNe?? Of course not, they are students getting into the aviation industry for the first time!!!!! Come on, how long did it take before you or more likely, someone told you about it?? Give them a little credit, they are trying to make the best decisions they can with the information available to them.

Cheers folks and if you have questions, I would say to direct them to DAEFA themselves and try not to speculate. Look at all the information I got out of them just by making a phone call and taking a little initiative to get to some actually in the flight academy that knew what was really going on.

Sandboxteacher, what option are they offering to replace the Eclipse?

Mutt

Sorry for this..It seems that I didn't explain it well. As for many pilots and flying enthusiasts, a casual search on the internet using any of the popular search engines will come up with various links from pprune..and I assume that the vast majority of wannabes does know about it. After all I was insinuating to, what came to be a fact later on, that students might be so busy studying or doing something more useful than just posting comments. Isn't this fair enough for them? While for me at this stage, I have nothing to do better than gathering all the possible details, from pprune plus other sources, about the academy before taking any step forward. It's no secret that I'm so interested in DAEFA and would like to know that they are in best shape.

Thanks for the info you shared with us here. Your input is highly appreciated at any time.

Cheers

Hey SilveR5, sorry for the blast on the PPRuNe thing, I just know that I have heard about it in the last couple of years and have been flying for over ten years now. Most of the time when I put in a search for a flight school, I got the exact site I wanted and not a huge list of other sites and no response that included PPRuNe. I might have miss spoke, but that wasn't supposed to sound like an insult but more as a Well Duh type of thing. As for the students, I don't really know why none of them reply. I hope the course isn't so intense that they have no other life, but I don't really know.

As for the other jet options, there are Cessna Mustangs. They seem reliable and knowing people at Cessna, they say they could have aircraft over in this part of the world for delivery as soon as they would want them. I'll bet there could be issues with finding flight traning devices for them. I don't know who actually has the contract on building them, but that could possibly take longer than the aircraft to recieve. But that would be my guess. Other than that, I really haven't been keeping up with the VLJ markets to see what else is available. Last I heard, anything else is still to far away from production. Maybe a good old King Air or possibly a larger jet and a smaller old fashion twin traininer may be in order. Lets hear it for a good old Seminole or something. I think may have taken a bit of a hit trying to promote flat out "Glass" equipped aircraft, but hey, I guess I'm a little more old school.

Cheers guys and I wish I could give some more insight, but I'm a little tapped for information after last nights post.

DAE Flight Academy
 

A word to you about DAE flight Academy, well a Few words, run, stay away, don’t waste your money. They have lost a few instructors already; they don’t even have a FTO yet. This school is a giant waste of time and money. If you are European stay in Europe and get JAA certificates. UAE certificates are useless if you are not an Arab or if you don’t have a lot of time IE 2000 hours Transport Cat Jet PIC time. This school is someone’s Fantasy. Think about it they don’t even have an airline partner willing to give their students guaranteed Interviews. 150K for what? What airline is going to take you with 250 and a E500 and a Airbus or 737 Type on UAE certificates. You are going to have to go to eagle jet and buy line training for another $50000USD, Think about it Emirates does their cadet training in Australia for less than half the Price, Ethiad has their program already. Fellow Pilots Don’t waste your time. RAK by the way is a S&%T Whole of a Place trust. It is not DUBAI. If you still feel like wasting money to fly a useless E500 go right a head. Anyway Guys Merry Christmas keep the blue side up.

RaK is not a load of %^%^
 

It is just different from Dubai, just as Luton is different to London, etc, etc.

I hear that they have a new COO, in DAE, any idea why.

Dr Potty has no connection to DAE, so concerned at this one.

Also heard that RAK airways has set up a JV for Cabin Crew and general SEP training in the Heavy Lift building at RAK.

Horizon is setting up a remote facility, just down the road in UAQ.

So the Northern Emirates have something to attract "learners".



RAK has its problems, but lack of airspace, and less road and air traffic is no one of them.

Glf

More sims
 

News update from CAT Magazine (Dec 2008 ed.)

SR22 SIMULATORS

ASE, Inc. has completed the design, manufacture and installation
of two cirrus SR22 G-3 simulators for the Dubai Aerospace Enterprise
Flight Academy. One unit was approved by the FAA as an advanced
aviation training device in September 2008. The second is a
JAR 2A Level 2 FTD and was qualified in Ras al Khaimah, UAE in
September. Two more devices are scheduled for delivery to DAE Flight
Academy in January 2009.

Mike.Park
 

Hey mate..Great news!

Keep us updated :ok:

DAE also set up a university in Dubai which they then closed down last year because it could not generate a return on their investment fast enough. Be careful where you spend your money and make sure it's guaranteed.