Although Camel you make out that you are very smart,unfortunately the only smart thing about you is that you are a smart a..e.

megacamel, I think you should offer an incentive for the first 50 members of an immediate cash back payment. Get those members to supply you with all their account details so you can pay it directly into their accounts. I believe that is quite common for Nigerian operations.:ok:
Oh! I think you will need their pin numbers as well due to the difficulties in transferring money internationally from Lagos!

Thanks AB for the explanation. Those of us who are members are grateful for the effort you have put in so far, however we did a rough estimate of what we thought the fund should be worth and came to a lot more than the 1.2 million you have mentioned. We estimated that with a conservative average membership of 300 pilots over the last 3 years (think thats about how long its been going if not longer?) that there should be an amount of around 3.4 odd million or are we way out?
Thanks

Mega Dude that was funny, but I have sent your mates in Lagos my email address and bank details for another great plan they came up with. sorry but they got in first.

I have another story (I like stories...) After I left school 4 of my mates made a pact, they would each put $10 a month into a bank account and keep contributing until there was only one single guy left out of the original 4. The last single man standing would get the money....It was a typical dumb teenage guy thing to do, motivated by drink as you would guess. Anyway, this went on for several years until there was only one single guy left and the pot was worth close to $6,000! The last single guy, who we all suspected of being gay (not that there's anything wrong with that), decided to share the money with the other 3 by having a big night out. Now does that sound like insurance or an investment plan, or just a bunch of guys pooling funds with a plan on how to share it? Don't believe they had to register a business to do it either.

What is the difference between the current administration and the previous one? Both AB and MP are the board of EP LIPS,and always have been. I think the communication has always been terrible. EK Lawyer you should have read the rules and regulations of the fund before signing up.The fund was never sold as you state.

dunerider, I know that I'm not very smart - I'm only an airline pilot. The smart pilots amongst us have made fortunes on the property market in Dubai or set up their own (legal) businesses. While I may not be that smart - at least I'm not dumb.

6853,

The problem with your calc is the time period. LIPS has been running for a little over a year only.

This scheme is very similar to the one run by AFAP at home. That seems to work ok.

Don

EKLawyer I can agree that LIPS is at a critical size that warrants some more transparancy and communication. And to be fair, AB has suggested this is on the way, not any different to a growing private company in that respect. But your gripe, and that of others is:

Failure to register a commercial enterprise in the UAE
Failure to obtain a trade licence
Failure to register directors with the trade department.
Failure to Keep audited Accounts in compliance with UAE law
Operating a business from a residential premises without a licence

I am suggesting that these may not be relevent to the scheme that is called LIPS. But hey, what do I know ..I'm not a lawyer....

I am still astounded at the attempts by non-LIPS members to discredit this scheme. To what end??? I know, as do other members, of the status and structure of the scheme, how there is a certain amount of trust making it all work. I'm comfortable with that. I do expect LIPS to mature as a scheme as it grows and at the moment that would appear to be the case. I just ask that those who are motivated by self interest, be it commercial or bravado, to choose another topic and stop crapping in 502 pilots' nests.

Lips on the surface appears to be a good idea. But in the end you are trusting a bunch of amatures to protect your family if god forbid something happens to you. Get off your wallets and go out and find a proper outfit to insure your family. Remember folks...as with all things in life, you get what you pay for.

7

Concerns
 

Guys, clearly there is a lot of concern.

I know AB set this fund up, and fair play to him. I believe he was disapointed with the AIG TopCover product and felt he could do better.
It seems to me that he is now realising the enormous complexities of running such a scheme, and that is before there are any any claims to deal with.
There are onerous legal responsiilities involved when taking funds from 'investors/members in return for a promise of future financial return, and many LIPS members are legitimately asking questions. EPC's lawyers have clearly spotted the jeopardy.

I am insured by TopCover and currently long term sick following an accident, and may not return to flying. My union insured me. I am covered for 75% of my salary and $500k PA cover. I know it will be paid if I don't recover. I am getting full medical opinion support from AIG, and the one concern I do not have is my financial future.



However, they KEY question you should ask about LIPS is:

In the event of me needng to claim, who will:
decide whether my claim is eligible?
monitor my claim for the future years?
assist me wth medical rehabilitation
communicate with me when I leave EK and return to my home country?


And,
what if I don't get paid, or LIPS decides that my condition doesn't merit payment, or 10 yrs from now there is no money in the fund when I claim??

30% of all general insurance claims are fraudulent. As member, how will you feel if Capt Bloggs clams because he was injured when driving drunk? Or Capt Smith claims and says he feels dizzy when he ses his roster? What is Smith or Bloggs were a manager of LIPS, or a relative, or a mate? Will you still want to contribute?


The real issue to consider is the transparency and management of such a complex, international scheme. You need clear guideline, claims investigation procedures, long term medical management, and absolute financial guarantees / security.


LIPS will need to spend a lot MORE of its money on setting up these structures, or trouble will arise.

Or, we all start to realise that AIG ( with AUD $1 trillion + in assets and truly global reach) had a point with TopCover.

At the end of the day, there is a risk/reward curve here. TopCover is cast iron and offers you 5 years of 75% of your salary, $500,000 of Personal Accient cover.

LIPS might work in the long term.

I hope you don't have to rely on hope when you are lying in a hospital bed.

Its a free world. Make a good choice. Discuss it with your wife !!!

Some perspective
 

EPC took over 3 years to start. It went from a sum total of 3 members and now has most of the EK pilot workforce as members. EPC had problems in the early days and fortunately through a lot of hard work of volunteers, EPC matured into what it is now. Only the typical slagging pilot would have considered giving EPC the flick in its infancy.

LIPS is no different. It started as a dream of AB’s and sure it has some maturing to do, but without your support it will die. For goodness sake, just have some confidence and positive contributions to make, as it is for our own good.

If in doubt how LIPS will turn out in years to come, speak with the early members of the AFAP Mutual Benefit Fund and compare where it is financially today.

And do me a favour; if you are not a member of LIPS when you contribute to this PPRuNe thread, at least have the balls to say so when you reply.

Some Perspective my arse!
 

What a load of ****e.. blueside.
If you want to share facts then go ahead and do so, but if you want people(ie fellow work mates) to take you seriously stick to those facts.
It was an arrogant f_ck within the EPC with an attitude not unlike yours that convinced me to resign.
No slagging involved buddy! just very poor management.
All potential members and current members have every right to discuss their concerns about lips and just what difference it makes if they are members or not is beyond me.
Or is it a requirement to pay your money up front before any questions will be answered? Sounds like you've been in Dubai too long.
If you have a vested interest or something to hide please demonstrate that you have the balls to admit it to all of us.

Shockwave
I was at that time privy to your particular situation.
The EPC has never or ever will sell your e-mail address to anyone.
The facts which seem to have slipped your mind
You where, sent an e-mail from the EPC which had attached letter from a sponsor introducing their services, this was one of 4 or 5 e-mails you’re received from the EPC that year.
You took great acceptation to this and sent an e-mail to that effect to the EPC, who advised you that if you had problem with this, we could delete your name from the e-mail list. You then wrote back telling us that you didn’t see why you should be penalized, and have your name deleted.
We earn a lot of money through a small group of sponsors, we did not believe that a few e-mails a year was a great burden, we have always been willing for those that have a problem with this, to delete their name from the list.
You also said in your e-mail that if this was to continue you would resign, which you did.

Those are the facts,

Sorry if it’s off subject

NB:I am a member of the EPC

SW
It would seem you have changed your post re selling of the contact numbers.

Shockwave's arse
 

Shockwave you did get one thing factual and that is you are an arse and as a result I am not going to get into a slinging match with you after this post as you will be persona non grata.

From the sound of your post and the following, you had a personal issue with someone in the EPC organisation. Maybe you have a lot of personal conflicts, as your reply was very aggressive. I merely said that EPC was a good idea and it was great that the guys did it voluntarily so we can enjoy the benefits. I also said that LIPS is a good idea. Maybe you should stick to the point and not bring your personal vendettas into a professional arena.

For the record:

• I don’t have a vested interest in EPC or LIPS, other than being a positive person who wants to enjoy the benefits of both organisations.
• Read my post again, as I stated to make a declaration if you were not a LIPS member.
• Let your colleagues be the judge of your post.

LIPS new payment options
 

I've just received notice that all LIPS payments are to be made into AB's private bank account which I suppose does finally answer the one question I had and that is that there is no locally company set up and therefore LIPS is actually trading illegally in the UAE.

LIPS is being sold by a resident of the UAE to other residents of the UAE, with payments being made in the UAE in UAE Dirhams. It would take an extraordinary leap of imagination to suggest that it is not a UAE based business.

And as for paying into AB's personal bank account.....what is he thinking?!?!

I AM NOT A MEMBER OF LIPS

I did not join LIPS due to the many of the observations mentioned before. But before you all join in and demand to see his UAE registered company status, how many of you have been paying into EPC's local bank account, with your locally earned Dhs and not questioned the legal status of OUR CLUB?

I think clarity in all of these business enterprises needs to be addressed and the management of them handed over to responsible outside agents.

I am a member of LIPS, and am rethinking. To put funds into someone's personal account is very very risky. So what happens if for some unknown reason AB cannot access his account? Does he get interest on the amount of 500x320dhs each month? What if AB decides to leave EK, where are the funds? I khave no beef with AB and have zero reason not to trust him, I think he has done the pilots a tremedous favour in setting this up. However, IMHO, it just needs to be set up with some ordinary safeguards, run by a committee of peers and quarterly audits. Maybe we are in a transisition stage and within a month or two, all will be satisfied. But the email I got says to leave 12 checks in his box. Or one big check. Don't think so........

Where do I get TopCover info and what's the reviews on that? Would rather stay with a scheme run by our peers.

If you were a member, then you would have received an e-mail detailing the legal status of LIPS.
For sure the payments into AB's bank account are not the best, but as the EPC pulled the plug, its a temporary measure i hope.

EGGW

Sorry to side track the thread again, but it is kind of relevant when you deal with unprofessional organizations or early start up organizations who have yet to sort out all their difficulties.

Not from here:
I changed my post a few minutes after writing it because it was not what this thread was supposed to be about, so if you received the original, sorry about that!

However, I do find it unsettling that a member, or past member of the EPC committee believes that it is acceptable to air private dealings with their members in a public forum. It is indicative of the poor management that I have already talked about. Also FACTS are only ever known by those directly involved and even then they are also miss represented, bent, embellished or just plain changed to suit what ever agenda some one may have.
I would advise you to remove any information you may have posted about some ones direct dealings with the EPC that you may have been involved with while in an official capacity. := Very poor show, inappropriate, incorrect, and not unexpected. Legal expenses for the EPC is not something that should have to be paid for from members contributions because of the stupidity of one of its officials.


blueside:
I am not normally an angry b_stard but your post deserved an angry reply and it obviously wound me up which I regret letting happen. Your second post only displays again the intolerance of your first, persona non grata! grow up!

TopCover & Peers
 

Hi - you mentioned TopCover and how to find out information? Well that is easy - just look.

You also said you'd like to support something run by your peers.

The IPEP scheme is a group of your peers trying to run an affinity group to access properly regulated and secure insurance for pilots.

The AIG TopCover policy was originally designed by and for your peers - the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association ( Cathay's union) and was initially insured by Lloyds in London. It moved to AIG when it became bigger and more successful.

So: TopCover is designed and initiated by pilots, has proved to be such a success it is now backed by the world's largest insurer, and is made available in Emirates via IPEP ( Income Protection for Emirates Pilots) which is a voluntary 'club' that was formed by volunteers specifically for the benefit of EK pilots ( and pre-dates EPC I think).

I am not sure what else you could hope for really??

TopCover has been available for EK pilots for 6 years, and it has not been pushed as hard as LIPS. It is and was always meant to be voluntary and offer pilots access and choice to a world class secure product. It is up to pilots to make a good decision.

We make vital decisions every day. Why take unecessary risks?

Shock wave you have made this thread fun, so thanks for that. I might point out that no one probably knew who you were until you went ballistic at "not from here". And was that a threat of legal action I saw buried in you last post? Poetry..please more.

Bondy, Top Cover is at least as good a policy as other mainstream policies. But by what measure do you access it as being "...more successful" and successful for whom...AIG..???

Ok let's have an answer to the last question asked, as many other have been answered:

Does the EPC, who takes our UAE money have a trade license to operate here in the UAE? Is it even applicable?

If yes then fine if not, then why not? perhaps a question or two to the relevant authorities might actually clear up the whole mess one way or the other.

To answer the question I have both TOPCOVER and LIPS, why, who cares, I don't give a flying f@ck one way or the other, I just do, if LIPS is illegal and it is determined the EPC is as well, then we have a can of worms on our hands don't we :uhoh:

Dooner:mad:

dooner
I believe that the EPC and FACE are both Emirates approved staff social clubs and they were formed and exist with the support of the company. The company facilitated the opening of Bank accounts and allowed the salary deductions to enable both clubs to operate.

One major difference between the two, is that IFS control and manages the day to day running of FACE while the EPC has to date been left alone to manage their own affairs. Neither have Dubai trade licences and as long as they don't engage in blatent commercial activities, they will be left alone.

I wouldn't be surprised if the company is closely following the LIPS fiasco on this site.

It is strange you say Topcover is not pushed as hard as LIPS.I can recall many occasions recieving brochures in my box and even emails to my work address from NF pushing the product.Not sure if the EPC is legal though.Maybe they will shut it down as well.However I dont think recruitment will like that though.

For gods sake guys the EPC is a club which we pay 50 DHS a month each for the privilage. For this you get benefits worth thousands and thousands of Dirhams:D and is run by a bunch of guys who get very little thanks for their efforts.
Don't compare LIPS to EPC they are at opposite ends of the spectrum EPC is approved by Emirates as it is a CLUB and thats why they allow salary deductions.
If LIPS was approved by Emirates they would allow salary deductions however as things stand at the moment that is not going to happen.

It's been awfully quiet. Still waiting for something a bit more "official" than the current pay scheme to an individual's checking account. What concerns me with this type of arrangement (maybe it was always thus), who has access to this account (only AB?), what would happen if for some unforeseen circumstance prevented AB from accessing his account? At the least it would seem that a separate account could be set up with a "board of directors" that would have oversight and access to the account.

This has nothing to do with trust, but rather oversight and access. Anybody heard anything other than the email sent a few months ago?

Last seen sailing around the Caribbean on his yacht 'Sweet Lips'............

I think I saw AB from a distance yesterday.I should have asked him how many cheques have arrived in his box.I for one am no longer going to continue
with the LIPS scheme.The big question will be will I get any part of my contributions back.Maybe the deal will be that we each get a day out on "sweet lips" as payment.

well the one thing is for certain after reading through these posts I think NF and A380megacamel will be at the bar giving each other a good pat on the back for a "job well done" with their contribution to the end of LIPS (if that comes to pass) and I have absolutely no doubt the 2 of them will be there again to tear down anything else that may come along in the future, NF I can understand because of his personal committment to Topcover, fair enough, as for the megamoron....

I just find it sad that we always try to tear down anything that guys have worked hard to put together for the benefit of their colleagues. I don't see anyone offering any suggestions as to how to move forward......

Lets face it unless your medical condition is "cut and dry" then you will have to fight like hell and as has been mentioned on other forum threads, you may have to threaten with legal action, whether it is Topcover or LIPS, to see any benefits and yes there are plenty of examples around the industry to show this.

So either put up a solution or shut your friggin hole:mad:, I have forwaded a option to Andy for an Investment firm here in Dubai, with which many of the EK pilot group already deal with, it may work, it may not but at least there are options being tried before it is sh@t-canned altogether.

Dooner:mad:

Easy Dooner,
I'm on your side. I think the majority of guys are taking a wait and see attitude. I agree with your assesment that LIPS could and should be, IMHO, the preferred scheme. Perhaps this bump in the road is just what is needed to get the proper checks and balances for a plan that probably will continue to grow and to make it more transparent. Any plan should be able weather some hard scrutiny by its members. And I am sure AB would welcome it. It would only benefit the plan. Trust but verify........

Around 25% of the pilots here are members of LIPS. I believe this is a great scheme and we should continue to support it. What is desired is more communication at this juncture. I guess we all thought there was some oversight by the EPC committee, at least I did. This is just getting too big for one individual to take it upon himself. Get a web site, get a committee, get an accounting firm. That should make everyone feel much better. The money is there to accomplish this. And then....:D

Which investment firm would that be dooner?

dooner et al,

My motivation from the beginning has been to highlight a poorly managed scheme that potentially exposed the EPC membership and committee to financial liability. As an EPC member I didn't feel that this was right and I believe my concern (and others) was confirmed in a letter from a lawyer the EPC committee had consulted. Perhaps the EPC should post the letter on the EPC website to clear up any doubt.

I'm glad there has been a discussion and I hope that this has been a catalyst for AB to get his affairs in order. I don't wish to see over a quarter of the EK pilots lose money in a failed scheme while presumably AB would continue to receive directors and admin fees until all the remaining funds dried up.

Disclosure - I have Top Cover (for now), I have no affiliation with NF, I'm an EPC member.

I see MP has resigned as Chairman of EPC. Is this coincidence, peer pressure or just conflict of interest?

Well since MP is the fella that conceived, negotiated and started EPC, I guess we should all be saying thanks for all your hard work on our behalf.
Good work MP and thanks mate.

Don

Yep, hands up for MP:D Thanks man:ok:
Lets keep EPC out of this discussion please.

New Email in portal boxes trying to pull poeple across to the dark side. Hey just trying to see what its all about and send name and contact etc to them and the "oh so superior professional service server crashes"!

Server Error in '/colemontdxb/TopCover' Application

Has anyone heard what is happeing with LIP's

No. :(

AB still need to sort out this. He promised that he would sort out an acceptable payment option but is only accepting cheques in his personal name. This is not acceptable.

Where's the promised audit?

Where's the promised improvement in communication?

Where's the promised website?

Where's our money?

Still got mine, he's not getting cheques in his personal account.:=

The longer this goes on, the more it smells. Which is not to say it is wrong, just that it needs to be sorted out soon. Like yesterday!