Gents,

I always found it somewhat bizarre that there's a cat-fight between the LIPS-people, and the Top Cover folks. It's almost like Apple-owners. They immediately become pro-bono salesment for Apple Computers, almost like it's a cult of sorts.

As far as insurance goes, I kinda wonder where the other 1000 pilots get their insurance. It can't be true that the majority of EK-pilots are uninsured? That one of the most investment-keen employee groups in the world don't take the possibility of license-loss into account.

What are the alternatives? Does any of the IALPA-unions offer insurance? Any other regular insurance companies? Instead of throwing pies at each other, we should look for alternatives. It seems to me that none of the products offered are fault-free.

I think it's good that somebody is trying though, and if they make a little money from premiums, I don't care. Each good product need a reasonably well renumerated leader, and as long as I get an appropriate level of benefits from the product, I'm happy.

Once more: What are the alternatives? I would truly like to know how all of you have dealt with the issue pre-EK. Company schemes, LLoyds, etc?

Lets face it guys, you gotta be a bit naive to think that you can have a lost of income protection scheme for 320 aed a month:ugh:. Any idea what the costs are back home. Being a bit greedy?. Don't you think that if it had any chance ,the boys at BA, AF, KLM etc. or there unions had been there before. BALPA and IFALPA and many unions runs schemes which are al run and underwritten by big insurance companys. They just get bigger discounts thats it.
Got a LOL with IFALPA and an Income protection back home. There are many schemes around at the homefront, do your homework.
By the way I don't think NF is a broker, he will just get you in touch with HSBC. I think they are running that scheme. I guess AB's intentions are oke. Good for him to at least give it a go:ok:, and lets hope everbody gets there money back:).

If you look at the Rules you will see that the scheme is actual Called
“EMIRATES PILOTS LOSS OF INCOME PROTECTION SCHEME”,
So it is actual EPLIPS not EPCLIPS, the company that administrates the management of the scheme is EPCL (Emirates Pilots Club Limited) which I believe is registered in the BVI. EPC has no interest or control of EPCL.

NFM, you are correct and I think this is the source of most of the confusion linking LIPS to EPC. There was an overlap in administrators but this is no longer the case.

What is equally bizarre is that we have 400 plus workmates who are trying to establish an alternative to mainstream products and there are other workmates posting here in an attempt to destroy that??? I don't get it! Talk of lawyers, UAE Federal laws ... what is your motivation, to try and anonymously impress people with you knowledge/bravado? I don't claim to know a great deal if anything about UAE laws but AB is not acting as an insurance broker as far as I can see. He is an administrator of an off-shore registered trust that just happens to distribute money if one of its contributors loses their license. He does not offer insurance/financial advise or take commissions from a third party for referring clients. If he and others receive some remuneration, I ask why shouldn't they? It is just as farcical to call NF a broker. I would think the UAE laws have no jurisdiction over a BVI registered trust... I recently invested in a scheme in Europe that provides funding to new start up businesses, some of them in a country not very well liked here, this is against UAE fed law ...so what! that's why the scheme is not registered here...

You can argue that insurance offered by the big companies is more secure etc, and no doubt it is, but the way I look at it, if a LIPS member lost their license today and at the same time LIPS folded then there is more than enough cash to pay the claimant their 25K/month for at least 5 years which is more than the current competition. If that member was not me then I have lost nothing because it "could" have been me. I move on to another scheme knowing I had comparable or better cover during the past period.

But I won't be able to if people keep posting crap that causes nervousness amongst LIPS members and discourages others from joining. Share information by all means so guys can make informed decisions, but lawyers.....come on.

Disclosure: obviously I am a LIPS contributor.

Not from here

You are wrong, If you have another look at the rules you will see that you must be a member of the EPC to join LIPS.

2.1 Any person in the full-time employ of the ___Emirates Airlines and who is a paid up member of the Emirates Pilots Club

You will also see from the rules that the Scheme is administered by a committee that includes the EPC President and Treasurer.

3.1 The Scheme shall be administered by the Committee which shall be appointed by EPCL and, unless determined otherwise by EPCL, shall be made up of the EPC President, Treasurer and the Scheme Administrator.

The scheme was promoted in the UAE, paid from salary deductions in the UAE to UAE residents who are employees of UAE company and who are members of a UAE based club by a UAE resident who is unlicenced (and therefore unregulated), to act as an insurance broker.

Talk of UAE laws having no duristiction over a BVI trust are irrelevant. What was sold. To who, by who and where was it sold is the issue.

Disclosure: obviously I am not a LIPS contributer.

380camel I reckon that's garbage and if you don't have a vested interest then I don't know why it matters to you. If you have an interest declare it.

You took the words right outta my mouth, VESTED INTERESTS! I cannot see any other reason for your posts. 380dude

EGGW

ernest and EGGW

As members of the EPC, we all have a vested interest.

Guys, the importance of insurance can not be over stated.

If you have a problem and need to claim, who is going to ensure they will pay you what you are owed? and for how long?
If you don't work for EK anymore you will not be living here, so how will you guarantee that you get your money sent to you in your home country?
If there is a dispute who or how would you resolve it within the islamic legal system of the UAE?
To what rules are Lips being held accountable?
Will Lips still be around in ten years after you have been medically retired and need to rely on your insurance?

I don't have any of the above answers. Perhaps some of the above do??

For me, insuring with the EPC/Lips guys is a huge gamble with a much higher risk. Hence their efforts to offer you more to attract your business.
Do not be fooled, it is a business! the guys running it want to make money from it just like any other insurance employee wants his commission.
The fact that they may deserve or have earned your money is not the issue, but promoting a legally secured, guaranteed product is!
I am not convinced that they are able to offer such a product.

It's a matter of how lucky you feel! Place your bets where you will but don't ever gamble with money you can't afford to loose.:(

Not wishing to get into a slanging match, but what I have written is NOT wrong.
The Scheme is called
“EMIRATES PILOTS LOSS OF INCOME PROTECTION SCHEME”
It is managed by a company called EPCL which is registered in the BVI
Which The EPC has no interest or control of.
These 3 points are all fact.
The make up of the local management team I did not mention, however since you have brought it up, it does say
3.1 The Scheme shall be administered by the Committee which shall be appointed by EPCL and, unless determined otherwise by EPCL, shall be made up of the EPC President, Treasurer and the Scheme Administrator.
It has been determined other wise! I understand there is no member of the current EPC committee that is on the EPLIPS management team, a simple call to the office solved that one.
It would also seem logical to be a Emirates Pilot if you wish to join a Pilots Loss of Income scheme!!!
Not sure what your game is 380 but your continued bagging of the EPC committee who have always worked for the best interest of the members, is a bit offside
If you do not like the scheme don’t join but leave the EPC out of it.

As an EPC member I agree that we should be concerned as to the repercussions for the club. My point was whether or not LIPS would have any culpability because of the UAE connection as it has been created offshore. If your concern is for the club, fair enough, if your lobbying from the perspective of another busines then I think you should say so.
My problem with LIPS has always been oversight. Still no end of year, independent auditors report. Things can be shonky enough in the UAE let alone with off shore accounts and the LIPS administrators aren't helping by not providing info on what's going on.
Most airlines have loss of income insurance through their common pilot's organisations (that's a euphemism for union or association) but as we only have a club then I would see it as a natural place for a legal, practical and audited scheme. I'm not sure whether ours is and often if it's too good to be true it turns out that way.

ShockWave has hit the nail on the head with that post. Loss of licence is so important to us all and that is the reason i have not or ever will take up the insurance from LIPS as it stands at the moment ( i am not with Topcover either)
The EPC have been told by lawyers the scheme is NOT legal and have therefore stopped the salary deductions going through them.
I am all for getting the best deal with insurance cover, however to set up a scheme that does not have any form of registration or regulation in the UAE is quite frankly stupid.

quote: It would also seem logical to be a Emirates Pilot if you wish to join a Pilots Loss of Income scheme!!!

Yes an emirates pilot! but why must they be an EPC member?
Not every pilot in Emirates is a member of the EPC! and to exclude them (if they wanted to be insured by you) is coercive and promotes the belief that the EPC is in fact running the show and involved at a higher level than what you say.

Probably because only EPC members could get a salary deduction.

Not from here
I have never bagged the EPC committee. They do a fantastic job and I made a point of personally thanking each of them at the last AGM.

The concern I raised was the potential liability each of the committee members and the EPC membership faced by their (and our) association with LIPS. The EPC and EPC committee were used to give creditability to the scheme. The scheme was originally called and promoted as EPC LIPS. With the EPC attempting to distance themselves, the Club part has been removed. The fact remains that you must be a EPC member to join. The BVI company that the scheme administrator registered is only referred to as EPCL. The actual name of the company is Emirates Pilots Club Limited. Food for thought.

I am told the EPC committee have now taken legal advice and I assume this will be conveyed to the EPC members soon.

For the record, I am not a huge fan of Top Cover. I only have it because there is nothing better. If LIPS was properly managed and structured, I would have been one of the first to sign up.

Personally, I won't be making any insurance decision based on these forums.

Good for gossip but that's about it.

Very wise atiuta.

I'm waiting for the long overdue LIPS audit and the outcome from the E.P.C. lawyers meeting before I decide myself :) I will not decide based on these posts.

Does anyone know when the LIPS audit was supposed to be published? Why the delay? Should we be concerned?

Is there provision to refund the funds held by Emirates Pilots Club Ltd if the scheme is closed by the authorities or by the members?

Probably not, what's left over is profit and the directors could dispose of it as they wish. As a member of the scheme, the only way you will see your money again is if you claim. That is no different from any insurance.

From todays email to the EPC membership

Well, the email has been posted by EPC, the salary deduction's 're gone.

This is gonna be interestin' I reckon... :suspect:

k-o-t-s

Concerning LIPS, does anyone have any information regarding claims? That is, to anyone's knowledge have any claims for loss of license/medical been made? And if so, have they been paid?

If AB set this up (kudos for the extra pocket money it brings in), how did MP become involved? Surely he's not just there to add the official tick to the scheme? Be interesting to know :confused:

Also begs the question as to what the 'Directors' are being paid to 'manage the scheme'. As I don't yet subscribe, is there a clear and open policy as to who gets paid what out of the monthly donations?


Cheers

And still no response from the scheme administrator. This is now becoming a worry. Just as concerning is the recently disclosure that the scheme is administered by a committee of just the scheme administrator as the EPC do not want any involvement.

I wonder what the payment option is going to be now that the EPC has stopped salary deductions? Cash or cheques into AB's personal bank account? Don't be silly:rolleyes:

Sorry to butt in, but what concern is all this to you megacamel, if you're not a member of Lips? Granted, an explanation from Lips would be in order, but certainly not to you.

Cut the crap Hook. Just because he may or may not be a lips member has nothing to do with it. Maybe he wants the info now because he is considering it. duh!

7

!
a quick trawl through his previous posts would dictate otherwise, dear fellow......

I agree with megacamel that it's a concern that the LIPS administrator has been so silent. What are the payment options now? There is no way I would pay into a personal bank account. That would just be stupid.

Do you have any idea, into which account you have been paying uptill now?:hmm:

DD I guess they don't....

I put my car in for a service yesterday and the garage dude hasn't called me and said it is ready. Any one here know if its ready? Did they find a problem with it?? Will they accept a cheque when I pay the bill??? maybe I should start another post here on Pprune about my car. Oh I know.. I will call the garage and ask them direct, now there's a good idea!! AB and MP's numbers are in the list on the portal, make a call for crying out loud and ask them your questions. Thats of course if you really want an answer.

You're wrong, SM. With over "500" members, there needs to be some official email/documentation, anything. My concern is, if this is how they are running the biz with all of the questions, how will they handle any claims. EPC has dropped them like a bad habit-you would think there would be at least something at least saying "standby". The silence is deafening. Of course, maybe all 499 other members are calling, like you suggested and they don't have time respond like a business should.

TU I don't believe I am wrong, call the source if you are a LIPS member and want an answer. However I never said there was an adequate information flow, on that I agree with you.

I am AB, the LIPS Administrator.
I have been on leave in Oz with no internet on my farm and apologise for the delay in my response.
As you are no doubt aware there has recently been a change of heart within the EPC committee over their involvement with the salary deduction for LIPS. Their concerns are that by collecting money for LIPS the EPC is exposed in the event of possible legal action by a LIPS member. LIPS is also outside their scope as a social club and therefore not in their mandate from EK. This is particularly disappointing as the whole premise of LIPS was set up to use the EPC salary deduction as a simple method to pay LIPS premiums with minimal effort for the members. It would have been more appropriate for the committee to raise their objections last year while LIPS was being created.
As to any concerns over the legality of LIPS, let me assure you that the scheme was created in such a manner as to not only make it legal under all countries laws but also to protect the funds against fraud or misuse from either the scheme administrators, directors or trustees. The premiums are held offshore in a trust account managed and audited by Carey Pension and Benefits Ltd in Guernsey.
The status of LIPS as of 30th August is as follows :
Funds held in trust : Dh 1.2 million
Members current : 502
Anticipated balance after next 12 months : nearly Dh 3 million.
Expenses per month per member : Dh 30.
Claims to date : nil.
This effectively means that LIPS can support 4 times the industry statistical average loss of licence claims. A new, albeit less convenient, method of payment is being relayed to members.
I agree that more open communication with members is required and have begun to set up a website so they can see the status of the group fund on a monthly basis.
Finally may I personally thank the members for their continued support throughout the last year and particularly over this latest inconvenience. I am on leave in Australia until the 25th but may be contacted by email until then or afterwards by phone.
Kind regards,
AB
LIPS Administrator.

:ok:AB, and thanks

As a start, that's all that was needed. Thanks...

Welldone A. I fully suppport the scheme, think it's a great idea as is a website to calm all the sceptics. A fund invested by those who will purely benefit from it, with sound financial cashflow both now and in the future. Perhaps you could set up a paypal scheme or similar, but then how do you regulate the payments? Maybe a yearly payment or bi-annually by cheque. I think it is a shame that EPC (OUR CLUB) won't allow you just to use them as a financial collection agency for those in the scheme and the scheme members accept by signature that that's all the involvement they have. Anyway, continue the good work and I hope more join soon so see the real benefit this membership brings.:ok:

CW (not a AUS mate)

AB your silence was becoming a problem. If you are taking 180,000 dhs a year from the scheme as 'administration fees' you need to be more transparent and professional in how you run your 'business'. I was a fan of LIPS but I'm starting to have a re-think.

I don't doubt that the scheme is legal. I think the issue is with your legality and I believe the EPC's lawyer was of the same opinion. Don't have a go at the EPC because without them, you wouldn't have been able to start LIPS. You know that!

And if you think of suggesting that we pay into your personal bank account, you can think again.

AB... you lucky b_stard.. summer leave!!
I think it is good that the LIPS scheme is being forced away from the EPC, it should be independent, and transparent to all members and potentials.
If the intention was to create a scheme to the benefit of all EK pilots then it should never have been associated with the EPC because not all EK pilots are members of the EPC and as a result have so far been excluded from the scheme.

I imagine it had to be associated with the EPC because of the use of salary deduction.Ask a380megacamel he usually has all the answers.His silence is deafening.

Question To Ab
 

AB, you comment that the scheme was set up to comply with all the respective country's laws. The one concern that I have had is how it stands here locally. LIPS is an entity trading in the UAE and therefore needs to be licensed as such.

1. Is there a local company set up?

2. You are either selling an insurance product or an investment product therefore is the local company registered and licensed by either MoE with an insurance broking license or with the Central Bank?

Thanks,

I_P

I have been on leave in the US with no Internet on my ranch and apologize for the delay in my response. I’ve been finalizing a new exclusive investment scheme for Emirates Pilot’s who are also members of the EPC. The plan is to purchase some land south of Lagos, Nigeria and turn it into an industrial park. The portfolio will be known as Emirates Pilots Club Lagos Industrial Park south or EPC LIPs for short. (Please note the lower case ‘s’ to differentiate this investment from any current running scheme). The land will be purchased through a legally registered company called EPCL (Monrovia) Limited and will be fully compliant will all international laws and those of Monrovia. The directors of the company will be myself, Mrs Megacamel and her nail technician. We are seeking 502 like-minded investors who are willing to pay 300dhs a month into a specially created bank account in the name of Mr and Mrs Megacamel. We envisage that the administration fees will be in the region of 180,000dhs. 165,000dhs will go towards the mortgage on my villa (which we will use as the office), 500dhs towards “Certificates of Investment”, 1000dhs website and the balance for directors entertainment. Please note that I am not acting as a Real Estate agent, but only wish to facilitate this incredible investment. Members will be welcome to visit the Industrial Park at any time.