New Policies at EK (The Green Dot Thread)
 

Although much has been said about the falling standards of new recruits at EK I think it fair to acknowledge that in the current environment of rapid expansion this was inevitable and is a function of pilots available and the experience levels of the same.
As a result of this and personal observations over the past few years I have come up with a set of policies (that might be added to) that can be printed off and once read, be signed before the commencement of a flight duty.
1. Thou shalt not taxi with the nose wheel on the taxiway lights
2. When changing radio frequencies listen before transmitting to ensure you aren’t transmitting over someone else
3. When using the radio English is the language we use
4. Aircraft radios are not the appropriate medium to chat with your mates; I recommend the pub for this, or else the telephone
5. We do not deviate around ground returns from the weather radar; use the tilt function and look out the window
6. We do not both have the radar on maximum range at night whilst engrossed in the Sudoku; you will not see the top of the next CB
7. Don’t concentrate solely on the radar picture. Look out the window; its amazing what you will see
8. Don’t ask for block clearances in RVSM airspace. If you cant climb 2000’ stay where you are until you can
9. Check your FMS descent profile against altitude and distance to run. Inserting altitude and speed constraints into the flight plan changes the computed profile and its not always accurate
10. Don’t touch the speed brake without asking; its probably not necessary. If you end up in level flight with flap out you have probably cocked it up
11. It is permissible to fly clean below green dot speed
12. If ATC impose speed constraints requiring flap and there are many miles to run request extra track miles and maintain a higher (clean) speed
13. Do not accept speed constraints that are unreasonable or inconsistent with the characteristics of your aircraft or company SOPs
14. When acting as PNF and a configuration change command is given; check the speed and do it. There is no rule against selecting gear and flaps at the same time
15. If landing on a 4000m runway the touchdown zone is the same as a 2200m runway. Performing a “greaser” 1000m from the threshold might impress the punters but it doesn’t impress me
16. Thou shalt not taxi with the nose wheel on the taxiway lights
17. It is your job to give the Cabin Crew their hours not mine
18. In the CBC after a flight the prime objective is to get out of there as quickly as possible. If you want to chat with your mates get a taxi because I’m gone.
I have read and understood the above requirements and agree to abide by them.
First Officer _________________________ Date:
Signed: _____________________________

Grumpy bugger indeed !

Time to retire perhaps and get that heart rate down. Maybe a CRM refresher or just turn up the aircon and cool down !:eek:

I can't say that I disagree with most of your "suggestions", but a few are concerning...

10. Don’t touch the speed brake without asking

Ask to use the speedbrakes?? Give your head a shake.

11. It is permissible to fly clean below green dot speed

Generally, not such a great idea, given an engine failure at an unfortunate time and simply not very good airmanship.

I think this post just summarizes the state of happiness at the entire airline. I just hope your not a DEC...

The further 380 delay should make the Airbus fleet even more enjoyable...:ugh:

Well, I don't think that any First Officer should have to ASK if he can use the speed brake...after all, it IS there to be used, so why the heck not let him fly the aeroplane, and leave the poor guy alone.
\
Longer track miles ISO selecting flaps?
More total BS.

Me thinks el Capitan Windbag needs to be taken down a peg or three.:}

Hey Grumpy! Good observations and something that I have considered printing out and using already! :D

Saltaire, he's made some good points and you also state that this summarises the general mood, that is also 100% correct and just in case you're wondering, I'm not a DEC :}

And 411A, taken down a peg or three? I assume by the comments you make that you are not here in Dubai or have ever worked for EK. In that case you need to be taken into the desert and given a taste of the local treatment usually associated with persona non grata. Your bum will hurt for a bit but the bullet soon eases the pain.

Green dot...
 

Very interesting indeed. You guys are totally wrong about flying below green dot though. It is perfectly OK to do that, and if you think about it we fly next to VLS on each approach.
Pork:cool:

Well... maybe a few alterations needed.
 

Nor the main gear because then you'll be just a tad too far from the centre line.
And why would that be? Over the middle of the ocean with no-one around, no problem.
Yes!
1st part of this statement is utter crap, 2nd is true.
Extra track miles? Bullsh!t, the quicker she's on the ground, the quicker we go home (or to the pub).
Quite right!

And do YOU ask HIM?? If you run a cockpit where the PF has to ask PERMISSION to use a flight control, It's YOUR standards we need to talk about!

By this, do you mean you EXPECT your FO to do so? Perrmissable or not, it's not a great idea.

Yeah....London control (Or CDG or LAX) are just going to LOVE you for doing that!!

Now of course if you run into one of YOUR mates...(assuming you have any!!)

You have a few novel ideas about flight ops...Fine.
The fact that you are trying to impose them as law on inexperienced FOs who will trot them out on MY flight when I least expect it is detrimental. I hoped the days when FOs needed "Hate sheets" so they could give each Captain the variations HE wanted where gone...

Apparently not:ugh:

Well obviously I've missed a briefing!! What IS the minimum permissable clean speed if not VCL??

If someone can show me an SOP that says flying below Green Dot is NOT permissible I would like to see it. VLS is the lowest selectable speed and is the minimum clean speed. Although I would not consider selecting and flying at VLS I think a sensible margin below Green Dot is perfectly acceptable if one can remain "clean". 'Normally' on arrival I see about 30kts between VLS and Green Dot. If Green Dot was 215 and ATC requirement is to fly 210 I consider selecting flap to be complete bollocks.
Regarding the speed brake; slightly tongue in cheek of course (as the entire thread is) however how often have we seen speed brakes used followed by a level segment either clean or semi-configured. The point here is a lack of appreciation of profiles.

Grumpy,

We're on different aircraft, but am I right in saying that below VCL you are limited to 15Deg angle of bank? As all turns have to be rate 1, havent you put yourself in the position where you can't comply with that requirement?

As to the speed brake (and indeed your whole post), I think the implication being put to you is "There is more than one way to skin a cat", being "grumpy" because someone doesn't always do it your way is counter-productive. Why not use it as an opertunity to share your obvious extensive knowledge? Many people DON'T have an instinctive appreciation of profile and many environments (Europe particularly) don't give much chance to learn it.

Warlock2000

Spot on. Agree with everything on that post.

Grumpy

Okay, if some of what you say ref. speed brakes for example,is tongue in cheek then fine. I whole heartedly agree with you on the subject of CDA's. There are many guys here, in BOTH seats, who do not know what one is, let alone know how to fly one! In the time i've been here, not once has a Continuous Descent Approach been even mentioned or demonstrated during training and by far the worst offender was a senior TRE into LHR. COMPLETELY CLUELESS!

Although the latest newsletter mentioned CDA's, the solution apparently is to look up some reference hidden in the bowels of a long winded publication. Come on EK training dept, take ownership of the problem and TEACH the guys during training.Give the guys a simple laminated A5 card that has the information to hand, ideal for those unable to fly ( through the automatics of course) and do their 3 x tables at the same time.

BYMONEK

Intersting mention of CDA's. Ex London airport so CDA's required(going back soon, hurrah), always try and do them here so give track mileage on initial descent, plus updates and number in traffic etc.
Straight in approach to 12L, gave desecnt from 12,000 to 5000 40 miles to go, aircraft was level 25 miles from touch down demeanding further descent. Dropped him to 2A, and pilot flew last 15 miles before intecept straight and level.

Whats the Emirates policy?

Well done GB.

Another one that gets me and many others are the ones that put their heavy feet on the rudder pedals and are sublimely unaware that you can feel it. Yes, by all means have your feet on the pedals chaps but please try and keep them there lightly like all the other considerate chaps when doing a PNF sector. Had one of them a few days ago who had his feet so securely secured to the pedals that I thought I had a rudder problem at the start of the takeoff run! Yes, and he was also one of those who spent the preflight running down the "useless Capt's" he had been flying with recently and then proceeded to give a sad display of flying skills and airmanship on his sector, without even realising his weaknesses, frightening but we seem to be getting more and more of them or am I just becoming a grumpy old bugger?

Green dot and bank angle
 

Hi!

Flying below green dot does not reduce the bank angle on the A330/A340. This would only happen in case of an engine failure. FACT.:D
It is not bad airmanship to fly below green dot. On the contrary, it is a very good tool if you like to fly CDA's.
Cheers,
Pork.

Whle it may be true that you can fly below green dot clean, the question remains why would you want to? Flap 1 for a few track miles will not affect your fuel burn to any measurable degree, but it will preserve your manoeuvring buffer.
Consider the following: 15 kts below green dot, levelling from a descent, turning with 30 deg AoB, turbulence (either wake, thermal or shear). Your protection speeds will increase substantially coupled with a sharp decrease in airspeed. Result: Alpha floor!
Why anyone would want to reduce their manoeuvre margin is beyond me.

Guess that you guys had better stop doing take offs in your A330s because a flap 1 take off @ 220t will have you climbing from 0 feet to 1000ft at a speed of around 35kts below S speed. Quite close to the ground and on a bad day with an engine out.

That seems a lot more worrying than g_bs 5kts below clean.

So...We're talking Airbus here. No wonder it doesn't make sense!!

I'd concur if there was both Capt and First Officer at the bottom of the contract, while most of the LHS are great - there are several I can can think of who need guidance from the list. It is extraordinary the number of LHS who still cannot do a standard first call with departures or arrivals or arrive in NBO with burning brakes on a 343, just to mention a few. As for "permission" to use the boards.........

TOD

Airmanship/CDAs
 

I never planned on a technical discussion here but:
Max Landing weight of 180T (for ease of figures) in A330 VS1G 145kts.
VLS = 1.23VS1G = 178 kts
Green dot = 1.45VS1G = 210 kts (there is the 30 kts mentioned earlier)
Alpha floor occurs somewhere below VLS.
30 degree turn VS is 1.1 VS level flight (at low speeds the autopilot is usually a bit under 30) so speeds become 160, 195 and 230 respectively.
Therefore at 15kts below Green dot and in a 30 degree turn you are covered wrt VLS not to mention Valpha prot.
Takeoff and final approach speeds are closer to protection speeds and although angles of bank are normally less it doesnt help in case of turbulence.
One logical extension of the argument could be the fuel load...if you dont like the policy of minimum fuel how much extra will you take? Is there a set figure or do you decide on the day? I take extra on some flights and on some others depart with CFP fuel. I know I can fly below Green dot but I dont fly at VLS.

TOD you may know how to plan a descent and manage a profile but believe me; most make a right hash of it and end up dragging it in. That is my point.

Hi GB, I do sympathise with your assertions, I was fortunate to cut my jet teeth in the London TMA so CDA's were hammered into my particularly dense skull, I think someone made a very valid point that CDA's are "not EK" until recently. I remember a particularly pointless article in the Outer Marker (remember that?) on CDA's which spent three pages reproducing the UK AIP and then finished with...."this is not current EK policy" or some such. I just disagree with the RHS focus.

Regards

TOD

At 6am on my way back from some far flung place I am more than happy to comply with SOP and get the speed back.
If CDAs are required then, of course, try and comply. Most of these destinations are day flights or long enough to get some sleep on the a/c.
If I have to fly level and burn a ''little'' extra fuel then so be it.
It's a damn site cheaper than a go-around and my brain may be able to stay in the vicinity of the aircraft, not 5 miles behind.
Anyone who wants to show me how clever he is by not using the speedbrake on the A330 at 6am will not impress me:= :=
Happy landings :ok:

How about you let the guy in the right seat fly the way he feels comfortable....or just do it yourself. I beleive he already has an ATPL and obviously has the required amount of hours to be hired at EK....oh, and is checked every 6 months and a line check.

Or perhaps they should pair you with another Captain so you can go about and stroke each others egos....cause you guys never make mistakes.

An ATPL clearly does not qualify one to be a competent aviator. It is not a Captain's job to "let the guy in the right seat fly the way he feels comfortable".

grumpy,

Nor is it your job to MAKE the guy in the RHS fly the way YOU think he should!

Whatever you reckon. Thanks for your input.

Wiz

You bring nothing to this thread.

Please take your dubious opinions back to D & G, R & N and Easyland.

Thanks.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who says that should not be occupying an EK left seat.

Nor does being in the left seat make you competent. Just cause you managed to get through the hurdle of being a captain at EK does not make you god's gift to aviation. There is someone beside you who is second in command and is a "captain in training" for one day he will be in your seat. CRM my friend and respect is what this airline lacks....it is all BS. We talk about the big picture and using all your resources and the best resource is sitting next to you and in the cabin as well...that is what makes a good captain...but a majority of you think it is a very lonely seat there on the left side. Hypocrisy at its best. But you are right in that sense cause anything we do the company fires you. So maybe it is the company culture that stinks and FO's will always be treated like ****. Its all a learning curve in aviation and everyday we are learning....maybe crew sched should roster you on your own sonny.

Having been in the left seat for nearly 20 yrs military and civil I have come to a number of conclusions:

1 Nobody tries to fly a bad approach/descent./departure /etc

2 Bollocking someone for trying their best achieves nothing apart from having a one way conversation.

3 Everyone learns from their mistakes, ergo, if it is not going to endanger the aircraft or go outside your own abilities let the mistake happen and talk it through on the ground. ( thats why trainers get paid more coz they get sh#t scared most days!)

4 Nobody stops learning in this game. If you think you have ground yourself before you kill someone.

5 Even the newest cadet has a right to their opinion and to air said.

6 CRM is a new exciting way of discribing Airmanship and good manners.

7 You dont have to tell anyone that you are in charge and the final decision belongs to you .. they know.

8 The days you stop loving what you are doing in the aircraft stop and become a gardener coz it's not a place to be unhappy.

Right I am now taking off my pompous hat and getting a cold one from the fridge. Thank you for your time and good night.

Alwayzz:ok:

Geez Broke, seems a few well qualified people more or less agree with my dubious opinions.

Just wish I could express it half as well as Alwayz just did.

Ace post:ok: :ok:

Grumpy You have issues mate:E


From your first post I can only conclude that you are talking about cadets...because I am in the right hand seat on AB fleet and I may hit the odd light taxying but so do you ....idiot!!!! :{

and.......... as for the rest of it .......if you havent taken the time to pass on infomation from that massive experience bank you call hours ,,,,,and given a guy something useful to enhance his ignorance then you are the ignorant one.:}

Flaps one is not flaps one........... is slats only, on the approach:ugh: ........flying below green dot clean, close to the ground..while reducing any margin for error with my family on board is neglegent.......so what if you can do it....I know its ok to do it .....but give me one good reason to do it in the first place.......:cool: mmmmmmmmm.......oooh I have one.........how about ...

WHEN YOU FLY FREIGHT

Grumpy you need to pack it in.....i hope to fly with you soon so I can tell you to get a life....!


TR:ok:

Grumpy,
I may have to report you to Greenpeace as you are depletin' the seas of some very big snappers. :D :D
Too much bait :=
RM:ok:

what a load of sh!te!

Only sensible post here has come from alwaysinit......

Why do U complain ? If you're not happy, why don't U leave somewhere else u won't find such low skilled pilots ? Does EK belongs to U ? If not, just try to improve things in a smart way, otherwise, just give it up.

The DEC course must be pretty cruisey if the lads have time for posting tips about Manhood on pprune.....:rolleyes:

Brian, is that you??

From the sound of the airmanship "advice" posted here, this cripple obviously needs a pair of FOs (extra crew) to keep him from rolling into the drink if left unsupervised, ala GF.

Mr Grumpy, please post a sample of your wonderful cabin crew briefing style... tell us how you charm the girls!! :D


Guys this tragic thread is another management ploy (Brian's first mission) to keep the lads from whinging about shaftings.

GREEN DOT SPEED (AIRBUS)
 

Tail Rota: What a load of CRAP! Who taught you that dumb statement? He/She Lied!!
Go look in your Airbus Bible Volume 3 at the definition of GD speed. Damn EVERY time you take off and select Flap 0 guess what... you're BELOW GREEN DOT SPEED! :D Do you consider that "NEGLIGENT"?
No of course not, otherwise you would fly Flap 1 until a ball-hair below 20 000' (high enough for your family) and then clean it up, but that would just be plain STUPID. ;)

Give me one not to...:ok: If you need to do it - just do it. :zzz:

If after a long day you are so focused on a perfect profile,hope you leave a little somthing to handle a non normal situation.Mostly ,I prefer a small level segment prior to commencing the final segment.:ok:

Maybe i'm getting too old for that already.....
For all those who had the privilege to fly former generation aircraft it is absolutely
clear that flying below GD is stupid. Actually it's more or less a funny Airbus name for
clean speed. I know Airbus proves it to be possible, just as to stall a plane that supposedly
does not allow stall.
In the days with manual throttles we flew 1.5vs as clean speed. As the AT's and their protection modes
took over, this margin was reduced to 1.3vs. However this all applied for cruise and approach. On take-off
there has always been the 1.2vs because thrust (or power) was fixed on CLB or
MCT or equivalent. So comparing flying below GD on climbout (V2 speeds) with below GD in descent/approach (Vcl speeds),
with partial power or idle, shows little airmanship or aerodynamical knowledge. Airbus can give their
speeds any weird names, it all comes down to vs. Because even a Airbus can stall, it's only more or less
well protected against it with its allowed envelope.
There is very little reason to fly too close to min speed, you trade margin and pax comfort (att)
for just a little show off of knowledge of AOM's but lack of airmenship.

china, are you sure GD means min clean spead and not min drag spead?