RC: Helping under insufficient crewing is nothing more than giving hand to cover up incompetent planning. Good working relationship only function with adequate conditions, otherwise we're paying for some careless jerks.
As it is today, you're simply paying for your loved ones birthday off.......

(by the way: Just read Ed's post on the portal-mail. I'd love to believe that less and less pick up the phone and that this is a desperate measure to still cover all flights. But I'm sure, because it's now Super Ed calling, lots of Captain Americas in spe will hit the keys...........)

Would like to add that crewing do a GREAT JOB with limited resources, well done, this is not a ploy to make your lives harder, far from it.
:D I wouldn't want to do your job with as few resources as we have in our job>:confused:
UPLOCK, really like the pic.:D For those in the know THAT IS BM Aka Captain America without a doubt. AWESOME pic.:ok: For those not in the know, look at previous threads to see the UNMASKED BM.

Zomp

You are correct. The 203 had no Captains until only several hours before with one of the skippers coming onto this straight after sick leave. So desperate are they that crewing agreed to a week off after the trip.

Okay, I will put up my hand and admit that I have worked on a day off before. Once, last year and that's been it. I did not, however, negotiate 7 days off after as I know that's screwing my mates. When people do things like that, they may well be helping short term but it's not until 'flagship' flights such as EK203 remain grounded that the Company will recruit the correct number of Pilots. Working on your day off and stating terms will, without doubt, involve roster changes for others and has a knock on effect which can last for days.

I'm NOT militant and want the best for Emirates BUT, it really is time for the management to get a grip and employ more Pilots. To do that involves offering salaries that will attract. When the Company appears to be focused as it is on more profit and productivity, it makes you wonder if the guys at the very top are being fed the truth. Current sham regarding upgrades that DON'T comply with the holy grail that is the FOM reflects the face saving that is crippling this Company.

Harry

The company pays you good money and provides good equipment and tools to help them make the business go forward. Sometimes people screw up in scheduling. Help them out people. It is not a sin to help out the people who provide you a salary and way of living. Quit thinking about yourselves all the time.

And I am speaking about any normally well run company. It is a BUSINESS. Not your personal flying club. Even though it seems like it sometimes.

Nuff said,

Walt

Good grief, Walt! You related to BM?

No I just remember when I had work ethic that got wittled down by working for the worst carrier here in the US and a union that did nothing for us. I am regaining that work ethic. It is what makes your career go forward.

It was you pathetic yanks that put yourselves in the situation you now find yourselves in.Dont come to our neck of the woods with your HMG views.You are not welcome and never will be.

Walt,

Scheduling have not screwed up! A systematic decisions was taken 3 years ago that it was cheaper to work the pilots to maximum hours in overtime than to employ more pilots. Sadly, they forgot that if you work people harder, on the type of flying we do, they get fatigued or sick.

Then the real rub, they had decided not to budget for long term sickness because it made the numbers look better. Now they are being caught with their pants down and are asking scheduling and the crews to fix it. 4 years ago guys would have helped out in a heartbeat. Now, because of the credit rule changes (training etc not counting for productivity) few people feel they have an incentive to help.

If they help they do not get paid for it quite often. A full months block in the remaining 2 weeks of a month without triggering overtime seems not to be uncommon. More importantly it allows the guy in charge of pilot resourcing to prove that he hasn't really screwed the pooch. Worse still, some of the guys that do help, ask scheduling to promise the earth for the swap and the knock on effect is that they screw their buddies.

Real Nice Alice. Let's see it was the pilots' fault that Braniff, Eastern, Ozark, TWA, People's Express, Continental, America West, United, Delta, Northwestern and more have either disappeared or entered into bankruptcy. At one point some of these were the most profitable in the world, but it was all the pilots' fault and especially because they were US pilots. So to follow your logic, these airlines' difficulties were the fault of the pilots, and if your logic continues to hold, perhaps you should be happy with the way management at EK is treating you, mismanaging staffing, covering up shortfalls in training, bringing in DECs. That way you will not have to go back to the little avaition world you came from and you can continue to play with the big boys in your shiney new jet. So be happy, the only way an airline can fail is by the pilots demanding what is fair and equitable, by your logic. So, if you don't want to be out a job and have to go back to your little homeland aviation world, you had better fly overtime, be happy with your lot, not complain about a 7% pay raise, fly over 900 hours a year, be happy that your upgrade will be delayed because some DECs come in on top of you. Or you might just be happy flying that ATR72.
IXNAT

whoop whoop BM alert:=

WALT:ugh: You are obviously one of the outcasts from the US, and most probably a DC as well. You have obviously not been through the EK mill. I'll give you a year or 2 and your tune will be changed, hang in the positive bro, Americans for money (otherwise you would'nt be here?!!)

Ummmmm,

Is it really as bad as that. Maybe I have been out of the game a little too long. I got screwed by a pathetic give away union that has allowed RJs to take all of our mainline flying thus screwing me out of recall so far. They have also given away our retirement and a host of other things.

I have been out of the cockpit for 3 years on furlough and maybe I have taken a too pollyanna view.

In my current job we either serve the client or we do not eat. That is the other extreme. And I am probably bringing it back with me to the cockpit.

Walt the difference is
Record profits every year
More work every year, now up to and over the legal 900 hour limit
Less time off every year
Less communication by management every year
Rampant inflation every year
Cost of rental housing up 31% this year according to papers
Reduction in T&C's every year
Reduction in equivalent salary every year
Did I mention the :mad: record profits every year
Just as I have no idea what you are going through, neither do you have a clue what is going on here. Apples with apples, mate

What has REALLY screwed up the market are these RJ Jet Weenies. I am an experienced major carrrier guy with 10K hours and almost every type rating in the fleet. And because of these 20 something RJ kiddies, the employers think we should all work 20K USD a year and no benes.

That is one reason I have sat out

For whatever it's worth, we had a situation at Cheesy Airlines here in 2004 similar to what you guys are going through...however it was only for about a year and a half. The knock off effects are still being felt through the system now. What we learned...money isn't everything and you can't maintain this tempo indefinitely without side effects....including family life. We had one guy down for over a year with a near cardiac, now he's got a stent. Another sim instructor in hospital because of too many hours in the box being scheduled and no replacement, he went until he dropped. Off flying work for six months. It just ain't worth it. Now that we are back to normal and the guys are spending more time at home, all of a sudden, we've got a miniature baby boom. Lots of us are pushing baby carriages:E . And lots of us are also looking for other jobs, things are looking a little dicey with this fast and convoluted expansion. :( might have to go elsewhere to make a living but looking at all the contributions gives me the heeby jeebies and a wilting willy.
:ugh:

Click...Prague?CSA?I guess money is nothing in your case.....
http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/fact...j2x2r85zcav48y

Offdays
 

Hello!
International definition regarding a day off: a day off, no one is requried to work. . We can fullfill our contract and that is what we are paid for. Off days is ours and nobody can touch them.
You can find the definition on manyweb sites. Mean while what are we doing, trying to help the company as much possible. and we are loosing, while companynisnaeachinw hen things(results)shows negative
I have no further commemts

That is the difference, if we were hemorrhaging money, then cuts and errosion of package could be understood, but we ain't. Its pure pharking Greed

Alice Alice who the F*** is Alice.Sorry just reminded me of a song I used to sing while I was flying my ATR .Gee ixnat I dont recall you superstars of aviation complaining about your mismanagement when you used to get paid twice as much as anyone ellse.Whats happened ? Now you are in the middle east for 5 minutes and your an expert on how not to run a company and tell the rest of us how lucky we are.Now I'll just toddle of to my own little world back in GA.Where's my 401k statement.Shout as loud as you like on PPRUNE because in the real world nobody's listening.

Just a term of endearment, there Alice. If you would get your head out of your third brown eye, then you would realize that the pilots of most of the majors in the US have been complaining about mismanegemnt for years. But probably in your little world of aviation you didn't pay much attention. My point is that the same complaints you have at EK are the same complaints that most of the US pilots have complained about for years. Never said I was an expert at how to run your company, just you are complaining about what you said ruined US aviation. Not shouting, just don't talk out of both sides of your face about an aviation world in the US you have no clue about. And if you did come from that US aviation world, and making the statements you did how the pilots ruined the companies, you are a bigger idiot than you previous statements proves you are.

IXNAT

IXNAT,

The good news for EK is that US managers are starting to come here with comments like:

We'll all be saved.........it will be just like WWII over again.:oh:

Yep, we sure will be. In fact EK has now officially changed it's name to 'Eagle Squadron' and our callsign is now 'Eagle.'

Conspiracy theory No. 348: Do you think that the Upper Management knew about the American invasion a long time ago? Otherwise why change all Management titles to VP, SVP. EVP etc...?

You don't seem to understand. Every airline needs about 100+ VPs, SVPs, etc. Makes it seem that upper mgmt is trying to do something.

Ah, but we've got 1400 if one of our bretheren is to be believed!:}

Fun With Overtime Numbers
 

Haven't had a chance to post for a while but thought I would give my 2 cents worth on the issue of working days off.
Personally I have not flown a single day off or allowed rostering to make a single change to my roster in over 2 years. Part of the reason is the bull$hit "cost neutral" changes to the terms and conditions of our contract along with insufficient compensation for the industry leading productivity (and profits) we provide to this company; part is my disgust for how the management have totally dropped the ball on pilot career management within EK (f/o upgrades, DEC's, seniority, etc); part is a recognition that the current situation we are in with respect to pilot manning levels was planned at the highest levels and they are now expecting us to cover up for their incompetence; and part is nothing more than a survival instinct in that if I have to be with this organization for "x" number of years I need to pace myself to not become another EK medical statistic.
For the life of me I have a really hard time understanding why guys would give up a day off for the pittance the company gives you. Perhaps those who are blinded by the "incredible" amount of money the company offers will be interested in this:
The total amount of flying you are contracted to complete in a given year is 815 hours/year. This is derived as follows:
-7 months x 78 hours/month (546 hours), 4 months x 76 hours/month (304 hours), and 1 month x 70 hours/month (70 hours) = 920 hours/year. Subtract your contractual leave of 42 days x 2.5 hours/day (105 hours) and you are left with a contractual requirement to fly 815 hours/year.
Now take an example of a Captain (step 17; approx 7 years at EK) making 29510/month (all math based upon the old scales). His yearly salary is 354120 dhs. If you do the math the contractual hourly rate is 434.50 dhs/hour. Given this number it is absolutely no surprise that the company has decided to work each pilot into as much overtime as possible (up to the max of 900 hours if possible) because it costs them peanuts. At an overtime rate of 400 dhs/hour this pilot is working for 34.50 dhs/hour ($9.38/hour) above his contractual hourly rate. My son working part time at MacDonald’s on weekends makes almost as much as I do working overtime for this company! Any wonder why I refuse to do it?
We know that in the past the company would build a roster to the contractual limit (78/76/70 hours/month) and then rely on crew scheduling to fill the unassigned flying via phone calls to pilots requesting them to work overtime on days off. When that started to prove unsuccessful, they switched to compulsory overtime built into every roster. However even with this change there still is unassigned flights daily.
As a consequence of the mismanagement of the manning levels, the new plan is for Capt. Ed to email us with the unassigned flights and hope we will fall over ourselves volunteering to fly them? But wait, didn't they increase the overtime by 15.4%? Shouldn't I be speed dialing crew scheduling to get those juicy overtime hours on my day off?? Oh good, now I can do some new math with the new numbers. Same Captain now makes 7% more with the pay rise (31575/month or 378900/year). Divided by 815 = 464.90/hour. New overtime rate 460/hour............lets see.....now I get to go and work overtime on my day off and I am getting 4.90 dhs LESS than my contractual rate. :ok:
Bottom line is I refuse to work days off under this sort of scheme. If Capt Ed wants to pay me what my son gets for working overtime at MacDonald’s (time and a half; double time on statutory holidays) then I might consider it. Until then I will leave it to the suckers in this company to further prostitute themselves in the belief that the greater good of Emirates is worth their health, marriages and families.
Cheers

Spot on Dune and of course your hourly rate does not take into account the company contribution on our basic, which means we are getting even more shafted on our 0/T rate.

are you saying that no matter what you would never work on a day off.
how about if you make a deal!
eg...jfk for ccu, cmb, ruh, and dam....guess what you also end up with 7 days off after the jfk flight. I will only do it if it suits me...but that is a far better deal. I would never pick up the **** i have traded in though...that is definitely not worth it.
It is not always about helping them out but looking after no 1

Dune
 

Further to your post, if you look at our senior captains, some of who have been here 17 years, the overtime pay is a paltry fraction of their contracted rate. I agree with you completely. Until they come up with a proper overtime rate that is transparent and tied to our contractual rate, they can bash it.

Pissedoffpilotek

You do whatever you have to do, but dont fool yourself into thinking you are having a win by doing that.
Do you think it is a coincidence that you get offered a JFK and swap it with a ccu etc?
Of course it isn't.
Scheduling know they arent going to get someone to go to CCU on a day off, so they give a JFK or similar to the guy on his day off while the CCU you traded gets thrown at some poor bastard on reserve. So when next you are on reserve and get called to go to Hyderabad at 2am,think of your mate who has swapped it for a JFK.

pissedoffpilotek:

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying and I have not done so in over 2 years. And I might add not doing so has afforded me a relatively good career here to date with minimal stress. I do my roster and work to the terms of my contract and nothing more/nothing less.

I don't make deals. My feeling is that ultimately my "deal" is just covering up the endemic problems systematically generated by the management of this company. I want no part in trying to hide their serious misjudgments.

If this airline was run as it should be there would be no need for these "deals" currently being offered by crew scheduling. Taking these "deals" ultimately leads to covering up the truth and nothing will be done to address the manning issues until someone takes a fall (starting with C.P.,VP-NC&L).

In my opinion those who work days off or "deal" trips are contributing to the rot that pervades this airline. You may think you are helping yourself short term but I can assure you long term you are doing nothing to improve your T & C's over the long run. With this sort of "prostitution" the true problems will be with us forever.

Just my opinion.

I hear what you guys are saying about making deals or flying on days off. I don't have any spare days off to legally go flying and when rostered to 97.5 hours like I am this month, there is not much room for manouevre.

However, as far as off day pay and overtime rate goes, it is a insult. Pay me my hourly rate from total cost of employment and I may think about it, if I ever have the hours or days off to spare.

Dune and Vorsicht,

I am with you on this one, the biggest change I have noticed in my time at EK is the lack of time off. I'm not going to give a day up for 460AED/hr. I'm getting old, flying more just makes me older and even copious amounts of alcohol don't give me a full head of hair and a 10" ----.

Pissedoffpilotek,

Look after yourself! You have to accept that sh1t will flow downwards and every 5 months you are at the bottom of the hill! I won't be helping you out, you'll be on your own. 'As much as you gain, you still get the pain!' (Copyright Schnowzer 2006)

You suckers are completely missing the point. Swap a CMB for a JFK? You arseh#$%s have already volunteered to give up two of your days off and go down to the World Trade center and get in line WITHOUT PAY to get a US visa just so you can go to NY! Yes WITHOUT PAY and now you want to work a day off again? This airline does not have a chance of ever getting anything decesnt with such asteemed pilots leading it. Get Real people!

Geez, LHR you have a way with words don't you. Bet you are a bundle of fun to fly with. My US visa with my previous company was acceptable and I did not have to go anywhere on my days off to get it renewed/revalidated. Would I do a JFK in preference to some awful trip if offerred, hell yes. Would they get a hold of me- no chance my mobile is switched off on days off and I have no land line. Hehe, chill:ok:

actually guys it was four **** trips for one...same number of hours so no overtime involved...just gave me a block of seven days off. plus got rid off three extra nights out of bed...so i ended up with more days off and less nights out of bed....

As was said earlier on this thread, the deal's made with crew scheduling have a serious knock-on effect.

The more deals done - the less stable your rosters will be.

The more you look after #1 the more you will get shafted by the all the other #1's out there.

Have a beer for breakfast each day off if it makes your decision making easier:hmm:

halas

I winder if DUNE will ask for any special favours from crew scheduling before he retires ?

Roster Change

No, since my decision to cease working days off or allowing my roster to be screwed with I have not asked them for any favours and and I will not.

It is a matter of principle that I'd like to think some of us in this company still have. I leave the prostituting of ethics to others (you can see who they are in this thread).

Hey guys, just a quick question!

I infer that those not answering the phone are all in the Left Hand Seat.

Do you think that not "going the extra yard" by answering the phone on days off will impact unfavourably on those F/O's yet to upgrade!

Just asking because I know that in previous companies I've worked for that these are the sorts of statistics that are looked at when "command readiness" criteria are considered.

I'm reading your posts from down the paradise island of AUH, knowing that, what's happening to you all now, will soon spread down there, and I must say it worries me.

EY rosters are already as stable as HR guys to be trusted.... Days OFF are not a problem yet, people are fighting to get flights, as the average flying is 50 hours monthly.

Anyway, I do agree with the NO TRADE policy a few of you are defending. If they offer to trade JFK for a series of s***t flights, no doubt that the deal is on their side and not in our favor.

Stand Tall, boomerang is coming back.....................quickly !!

I wish I will be there to see all the ME carriers competing for the number of stainless steel flying devices stucked under the sand.....

ennui

Absolutely not. There are plenty of F/O's who will not work days off and to be honest, I think crewing are far too busy to start keeping records of who is and who isn't. This is a big Company now and unlike some smaller operators where this practice is common, here it's not.

Many more Pilots would work a day off if the rewards matched the sacrifice but until we start getting a 'going' rate of around 2-3000 dhs, many guys will continue to spend their few days off with the family.