Upgrades delayed again at EK
 

Distressed to hear this morning that 3+ year Airbus FOs ROSTERED to start their upgrade training this month have just been told they will be delayed for JUNIOR FOs to commence transition upgrades on 777! [Transition upgrades were stopped about 3 years ago but now due to "company requirements" they appear to be re-introduced (dont have a problem with transition upgrades at all; just the continual flip-flop by the company which inevitably disadvantages those who seniority means something to (obviously not Brian))].
Apparently these Junior FOs are eligible for accelerated command... the problem is the disadvantaged FOs have served MORE THAN 3 years; the time for mere mortals to be upgraded with no, or insufficient Command experience.
The reason given is that the company cannot afford to lose the MFF qualified FOs to upgrade or transition courses.
This does not affect me but I will always respect seniority (perhaps I am in a minority here in EK) and it REALLY F#@$S ME OFF!
More info please if anyone has it; numbers affected?
Beware new/potential FOs to EK!!!

Is there not a policy that there will be no accelerated commands when there are 3 year FOs waiting? We all know EK does what it sees fit, the pilot group be damm but where is the justification? Just to show everyone how screwed up their system is at least 75% of the pilots making the upgrade transition are MFF qualified. They won't upgrade the 3 1/2 yr pilots but they will upgrade the 2 1/2 year and less pilots?
The rumour mill says that 18 Airbus FOs had their class cancelled and they won't be running again until Sept. That is going to put a huge backlog in the system for a majority of the EK pilots just to satisfy 30 or so "special" pilots. It is time to bring an end to this gross injustice.

"Not before September" - fact not rumour!

:ugh:

Please tell me this isnt true..........****ers,must be great being an Ek manager ,screw up after screw up....and still they collect the bonus..must be why Brian wants to be one.........................................

Because the proverbial wheels have fallen off the recruitment wagon, you know, a few DEC's coming, few F/O's. They are amending the "policy" not changing it, oh no that would be to admit they screwed it up in the first place. Thats AAR for you!

Now, they changed the DEC requirements for new entries, so voila, loads of guys already here with the required experience on the Bus and 777. Its totally wrong that these guys have been delayed on their Bus upgrades, why can't they do a transition to the 777???!!! No rhyme or reason is there. Still, better that we have internal placement of guys across to the 777 LHS than external, not that any want to come anyhow!

Total crap mismanagement IMO.

EGGW :{

EGGW

" Still, better we have internal placement of guys........."

Mmmm, easy to say when YOU'RE one of the 30 or so 'special' guys to benefit from this new amendment to the policy. Save the misplaced concern for your fellow workers and have the balls to tell the SVP what you really think. Perhaps you could offer your place to one of the 3 year boys. What d'ya reckon,mate?

Harry

EGGW
Why do you say the wheels have fallen off the recruitment programme ?

is there a difference between an internal guy jumping the queue and a dec.eggw you are treding on "murray ground"................

Bottom line the company will do what it wants to stop the aircraft being parked, or reduce the amount about to be parked.

I think its absolutely wrong that anyone should queue jump, but what to do, get more external DEC's? I've written to TCAS many times on the subject, have you HARRY? Why guys who are capable of Bus commands, but somehow incapable of transitioning to the 777, beggars belief. Quite insulting for those guys.

I was referring to the DEC recruitment, not specific enough, sorry TOPC.

EGGW :ugh:

the delayed guys should have been given the option of going on the 777.many of those guys didnt apply because of the 6 month fo part.now it seems the 6 month part doesnt exist.whats the point of having an fom if it is full of crap.or is it only there for the company to use when they feel just.

i wouldnt expect eggw or other fo to turn down a upgrade.But i do think it is a bit rich that the guys complaining about the wrongs of dec seem to think that another **** management decision is a better option. the upgrade process should be clear and just and policy should be there for everyone to see.

maybe one of the wanabees at interview should ask the recruiters what the policy for upgrades is???????

EGGW,

Sorting our manning out is simple. Pay! If they can make EK attractive rather than just competitive, then they would have to beat the applicants off with a sh*tty stick.

It seems to me that the company does not fully understand safety risk management judging by some of the decisions that are made. It is ok to employ a 737-200 Ryan Air Captain straight onto the 777 but not cross-train our own F/Os. Let me see the 732 guy needs to learn all about glass aircraft, 777s, long haul ops and the emirates route network. The bus F/O needs just needs to transition to the 777 particularly if he has had a jet command before.

I believe that most of the risk in our operation comes from a lack of awareness of the operational environment rather than the aircraft. It took me a couple of years before I was comfortable enough around the network to fully understand the implications of diverting to a particular airfield et al. It even took me nearly a year to learn to speak english well enough to understand most of the ATCers in the region and I am a native English speaker! Get a new DEC and an inexperienced cadet together and the risks are magnified.

What about the FOM??
 

In recent times, EK has proven that their word isn't really carved in stone. Actually, they have changed our T&C's whenever they wanted to (in a cost neutral way). The process is quite easy actually, you just keep to whatever is in the contract, but for everything else, EK just issues this little paper called FCI and says 'Hey guys, now your working under these conditions. Take it or leave it..' So at least, they had to guts to tell us to bend over and take it as a man..
More recently, one of the most important issues for our F/O group, the upgrade policy, has been changed:
First, we hear from a recruitment website that DEC's now only require 8000hrs. Confirmation came through the requirements on EK career website.
Now, F/O's who are eligible with 3 years are being bypassed by Accelerated guys without the criteria.
Both these issues are against the upgrade policy as printed in the FOM (Operations Manual Part A, Chapter 5 pp3-4). EK didn't even issue an FCI, or any other communication towards the pilot community to announce or explain these decisions.
Actually, since nothing of this is in writing, EK is breaking it's own law.
Of course, as I stated before, EK's word isn't carved in stone, but now, there isn't even a word...
What me worries the most is that we are actually evolving towards an ad hoc command policy. Next thing you know, Pablo, the (imaginary) Bolivian F/O with 3000 hours on Turboprop in the Andes, who has been here for 6 months, bypasses everyone because they could use him for his route knowledge for the new South American routes we will fly. And for our Asian routes, passengers like to have a Lee in the flightdeck, while Roger seems to be popular on English routes and Jurgen is a German option. So guys, you are lucky, bypasses are available... All the requirements are just there to fill a meaningless chapter...
And the downward spiral continues...
As far as I understand, the guys who have been delayed can't be missed on the Airbus sector because they are CCQ. We on the 340 are flying our @sses off, putting in 100hrs each month and most of us have some kind of a spreadsheet running to keep track of our monthly and yearly limits (yes, we all approach 900hrs..). So not only are we the workhorses of the pilotgroup (no offence to the other guys, I know you work hard as well), to thank us for our hard work they just delay our upgrades! I wonder how EK will find any more volunteers to go on the 340 now? You must be completely crazy to join our group of zombies, no reward at all.
Ok, there is a little reward: we do each month get overtime paid, unless you have some leave where they will fly you 78 hours in two weeks under the new cost neutral system.. and the good part is, we don't have time to spend our extra money. Now I think of it, I must be sitting on a golden egg... ;)
I just can't believe the lack of communication from AAR, TCAS or Ed.. It's just pathetic and it shows a complete lack of respect for the pilot community.
MR8

A bit off topic, nonetheless connected, rumour goes this year`s resignations up to 45....

Aircraft deliveries coming faster than the moving sands, not enough drivers, guys being stuffed over for command.

GUYS, DON'T FLY ON YOUR DAYS OFF, THINK OF YOUR COLLEAGUES, YOUR ACTIONS CAN EFFECT YOUR FUTURE - THINK ABOUT IT!

FOM Chapter 3
 

Guys

According to the FOM the screwed F/O's have the right to appeal within 30 days, if not I think I will be tearing these offending pages out of the FOM as it seems they are only to be used to wipe my :mad: :mad: with!!!!

Thank you for another kick in the nuts Adel.:{

What's next - will they make us permanent FOs to save money?
 

I must say I am very surprised by the lack of comments to this outrageous policy change. I am guessing that this means bypassed/delayed/shafted FOs are busy on the keyboard writing our esteemed managers. Remember guys, even though you may not be one of the senior AB FOs that got pulled off an upgrade course, this new, but still not official change will mean that you are here for atleast 4 years before you upgrade!

ekpilot.. How can one officially react one something that is actually just a rumour. Don't get me wrong, I know these things are actually happening, but since there is no oficial policy, you can only react the moment some guys will actually start their upgrade course ahead of you.

MR8

MR8

Believe me what is happening is true. I've checked staff numbers and rosters on the portal. Those on an upgrade course this month are way behind me on seniority, despite my jumping through the EK command selection hoops.

What has been going on is fact. However, there is a rumour that three of the intended transition & upgrade F/O's have failed their tech exam. Anyone else care to comment..................

It's HAPPENING MR8...................... And yes EKpilot, we're busy on the keyboards..

Jolly and White,

Obviously you guys had your courses cancelled. Could you share with us who, how and with which reason EK called you to give you this news? Off course I understand if you guys can't do this if that would mean you could loose your anonimity on this forum. (Don't ask Capt America though, he's rather lousy at that :E )

I understand you guys are being punished because you fly the A340, and we are obviously short of A340 F/O's, even more than other pilot groups are short.

AB Captains are flying like hell as wel, and EK is aware of that, that's why they planned your course in the first place. Now with cancelling, how will they manage the AB Captains for the summer? Will these guys go even more into overtime, or are they planning to replace you by DEC's Airbus? And that's even before the upcoming resignations due to our great payrise..NOT!!

I would also like to be the first one to speculate about NEXT years bonus: nada! The way the company is going now, we will never be able to keep those new aircraft flying, we almost can't handle the way things are going now. How on earth are they expecting to make even more profit when you can be SURE that aircraft will be parked? Did anyone inthe higher regions of management look at the long time losses? What the long time effect will be of flight cancellations, passengers being stuck because EK can't provide them with flights they booked?

On the bright side, with the delays you guys are facing, you might have the pleasure of doing some training with Capt America, who will have finished his TRI course by then.. He will without doubt tell you how great EK is, and you guys will probably completely forget all about the ****ty summer you guys are facing. Life will be beautifull... :yuk:

To end with, for what it's worth, please know that our thoughts are with you guys. You guys are taking a direct hit, but I'm sure most of the AB F/O's are with you, also suffering from the ripple effect...

There's no certainties anymore, the lies continue...

MR8

MR8

LL was in the unfortunate position of disseminating the e-mail concerned and has probably had to endure a huge barrage of responses as a result of a decision made well above his head.

The underlying theme seems to be that both fleets are very short of guys in both seats but the 777 is far shorter than the Bus. It is only a short term fix to a long term and previously known problem.

:ok:

What about the fast tracker who failed his knowledge test ...... just to be told to begin his upgrade on the 777 anyway and take the retest someday later?
Only a ugly rumour?:ugh:

Not rumour either unfortunately. There were three of these guys who failed their pre-command tech test.

Guys .....its a mess

It seems that no matter which way they go ......... the company is going to pi$$ someone off. (me included:cool: )

However as a group we need to look at what is happening here.

They guys who have had thier commands postponed because the fast track guys are going to the 777 is a reflection on manpower only. I feel for them......its frustrating and cant imagine what they are thinking or feeling.

EK are so short of pilots they are unable to do both.

EK cannot have 18 guys on 330 command course ..........and have AB F/O's go to the 777 at the same time. .........so they had to make a descision.......... they need captains now on the 777 fleet because DEC's are not comimng....(thank someomne for that:E ....... right on!!!!)

and the quickest way to crew the 777 ..........is to use all the Accelerated guys they can find on the the AB fleet......and move them across to the 777 asap.
As we all know........ the upgrade policy will only allow the guys who have previous command time (2000hrs or more) above 55tns or bigger..... to be accelerated.

If you are without this time in the log book then you have to be in EK a minimum of three years before an upgrade check can be done............no matter what the circumstances are. You cannot do a command check until the day you have been here three years.:=

seniority or date of joining.......doesnt come into play.....in fact it has nothing to do with it....its about getting captains on the 777 as quickly as possible and checked out as soon as possible. Accelerated guys are not constrained by the 3 year rule.....that is it.

The company is restrained by its own Draconion upgrade policy.:cool:

The question is ...........why hasnt this been recognised before now?

Just for a moment try to look at what is happening and take the emotion out of it.......I have............ and no matter what you think..........no matter who you call ............it is not change.:{

The payrise has proven it......we have two choices


TR:ok:

(not my best post...:* )

Put the 18 guys, who have been here 3 1/2 years, on the 777 course. Problem solved.

Boy, that was tough.:hmm:

ANY NUMBERS.....
 

Exactly how many pilots are needed today ?:confused:

Rough guess, looking at target block and the blocking window, we are short 15-20% with aircraft arriving every month. To stand still we need 200-280 pilots if the company is serious about flying to a 780 hr/year target for fatigue reduction.

hey Bus canuck

Good point but what about the fact that they are needed on the AB and will be rereleased as soon as possible. They are already tagged for the Bus upgrade and my guess is havent got enough 3 yrs guys to replace them by September......its just a delay not cancellation. And remember all F/O's have to be peplaced by new recruits......where are they coming from?:cool:

If you read my post .....if this probelem had been addressed at the start of the year with a proper transition upgrade policy, instead of that invitation to swap fleets we wouldnt be having this debate now.

The upside is that ..........co 's are moving ......and for every pilot that gets an upgrade weather its a three year guy or one of the acclerated guys ........we are all getting closer to a command.

Has it been longer than 3 1/2 years to command at EK .....i am unsure.....most of the new captains I fly with have all been 3 yrs or so.....no one has been longer.

Just for a moment look outside the command issue.....look at the bigger pic.....its not pretty........aircraft coming ...no crew!.....flights not departing....no crew!.....aircraft parked ....no crew! roster at the end of the month....no crew!

they have to do something fast


TR:ok:

Guys

Its not looking good:E

TR:ok:

Been here 3 yrs and 4 months and now waiting waiting.

The wheels are off:{ :{

If Bus F/O's are going Captain, shouldn't it be the 3 1/2 year guys first? As far as enough 3 year guys, I'd say a rough guess is about 40-50 now and will have another 30 or so by September.
Sorry, but that's just not true. If you've been here 3 1/2 years, how does it help you to have a 18 month guy go ahead of you for command?:confused: Maybe in theory it's better than a DEC, but the foot-prints over the back feel about the same. Salary and benefits are affected the same too!
Agree, but I'm not optimistic. BTW, TR, I realize we're on the same side, so I'm not picking a spat with you. Just trying to point out how ridiculous the situation is.

Personally I think they should upgrade Airbus FO's on the Bus, short course, then transfer Airbus Captains who probably have a 900 hour problem to the Boeing. The long transition should take care of the 900 hours problem. My theory anyway for what it's worth.
Keep the blue side up fellas.....................

No worries Bus

I was just trying to make some sense out of all this caos........not sure what to make of it all....:cool: mmmmm..........I was hoping there may have been some logic to what is going on ........but ......seems not:{

What to do ....What to do!!!!

TR:ok:

TR are U Management??????
 

Hey Tr,

Normally your posts are quite good, but I think that you have lost the plot on this one.:=

Let us not be emotional and set aside the long term financial implications to these guys who have been delayed. And the fact that these same MANAGERS whom could not predict this was going to happen (when it was blatently obvious to everyone else) are going to pick up their 2x bonuses for mis-managing the situation and look at the facts.

AAR letter dated 24th December in relation to Upgrades said and I quote:

SO surely the best thing for moral would be to let the guys who have already passed their upgrade interviews and been allocated courses go FIRST and in senority order irrespective of which Aircraft. If it is your contention that they are needed on the Bus, where are the jumpers coming from, guess what the BUS, so it makes no diference in terms of numbers.

Also there are plenty of FO's coming up to their 3 year point in the next few months and whom have the hours to meet the UPgrade requirements for the BUS. Even more if they allow (ala 777) people to start their course to be finished on the 3 year mark.

Even if there was a shortage of Bus FO's with the requirements wouldn't it be better to use the jumpers (whoops acelerated) after they have used up all the ones with the criteria whom have been here longer??????

Explain to me the justification given the above points for pomotion out of senioriy (see FOM for definition). There can be none except that they like you have lost the plot.

Correct me if I am being simplistic. I for one am seriously pissed off at being bypassed by pilots that have been in EK less time than me(in some cases 1+1/2 years less), have less Total flying than me, less command time than me, but had the fortune to fly an aircraft just over 55T on the same routes I flew in my trusty Turboprop and less widebody time.

Time to pull your head out of the sand TR.:ugh:

The situation sure is ridiculous. I have not experienced a flight cancellation due to crew shortage yet. However, the last three flights I have done have been down to the wire as far as finding crew is concerned, including last minute changes going on in CBC. Has anyone personally experienced a cancellation?

I know at least five guys personally who are on reduced flying due to hour limitations and I am not far off myself. With this kind of crisis management going on, it is only a matter of time before the whole thing flicks in. I know of one friend with chronic fatigue and another sick due to related issues.

It is past a joke getting called at all times of the day and night by scheduling asking for help. Even getting an off base request approved for off days doesn't seem to deter the incessant phone calls. I used to screen the calls. Now I answer and make it clear that I am not willing to help. The deals being offered by scheduling are becoming more and more extravagant, which is of course also not sustainable, but until we say no, nothing is going to change.

I do not mind helping out a company in an hour of need, as crisis can affect us all, but when the "hour of need" stretches into days and I am so obviously being exploited, it is hard to keep from getting seriously pi$$ed off.

Anyway, I await a reactionary response to the crew shortage from management which is bound to further demoralise staff.

Tail Rota - You are off the mark.
 

There is no sense to this policy.
There are plenty of bus fos to send across to the Boeing. Probably around 50+ that have now been here more than 3 years. However, the management prefer to further infuriate one of the groups that has worked the hardest.
With the letter dated Dec24 last year, nobody could do a transition upgrade without a freeze period unless they were DEC qualified.
It is the fact that there is now another, but not official policy change in play that allows accelerated fos go across.
Management seems to be able to adjust any requirement to hours, experience as so forth unless it has a positive fallout for the "normal" bus fos.
Funny though, you would think a management team with the acromym EADS would be more in favor of bus fos, instead they seem to approach the issues more in the form of the Marquis de SADE :ugh:

Aircav

mate.........I am not Management and dont have planes to be.

and yep I may have lost the plot on this one........so explain to me what the hell is going on.......:eek:

No one can predict anything anymore.......as far as AAR 's upgrade policy goes .......what was that stupid 6 month rule for guys to transfer to the 777 ranks.....it was a joke :E

EK cannot be trusted. I too thought it was 3 yr guys.......accelerated guys......then DEC's. at the moment it seems like anything goes.

one thing is for sure DEC's are here to stay.......if they can get them :}

how can dropping the DEC total time to 8000hrs be of benefit to the experience levels at EK........most F/O's have more total time than that.........they are doing thier best to pi$$ off as many guys as they can......its the oldest trick in the book........divide and conquer.

Its a mess Aircav..... .....your post is noted.......:cool:


I think the boys on the "EK payrise forum" have the right ideas.......it may be relevant to this post as well


TR:ok:

To think how different the outcome of this decision would have been if they sent the 18 guys to the Boeing. It would cost the company absolutely nothing, but the improvement in moral would have been unbelievable. Its only a few days in the SIM to get the 330 only FOs to replace the 340 ones.
If only we could get some grown ups to work in management. It seems hard to believe they can not see that these shaftings are not good for recruitment etc.

Don

TR,
That is the point I was trying to make!!! There is no common sense to the policy and it cannot be justified. In fact the silence from above and the totally underhand way it is being implemented actually confirms this.

Sorry if I sounded a bit tart but I am seriously pi**ed off at the moment, so take no offence, after all we are batting for the same team I hope.

To all you do-gooders out there, I refer you to EKLAWYERS post. Let us try and stick together on this as it is the only way we will ever see any improvement in the attitude of our managers.

Do not sacrifice short term gain for long term pain.:ouch:

Keep being sh*f*ted :eek: (Sorry I meant keep discovering)

I thought you got zippo company cash until you had been employed for 5 years and all of it after 7. Been wrong before though.