US Expats
 

Thought this might be interesting. Front page of the Wall Street Journal this morning. Highlights EK.



http://online.wsj.com/img/b.gifU.S. Pilots Sign OnAt Foreign Airlines
Global Travel Boom Yields
Tempting Pay for Expats;
Concerns About Safety
A Captain's New Life in Dubai
By SUSAN CAREY in Chicago, BRUCE STANLEY in Hong Kong, AND JOHN LARKIN in Mumbai
May 5, 2006; Page A1

Nearly two years ago, at age 51, Brian Murray took early retirement from US Airways. The pilot was outraged by the airline's termination of his pension plan and worried about his future with a carrier sliding toward bankruptcy court for the second time.
But Capt. Murray's flying career was far from over. Today he lives in Dubai and flies wide-body Airbus A330s for fast-growing Emirates Airlines, winging to exotic destinations in Europe, Africa and Asia. He's home more than he ever was at US Airways, and his total compensation package -- including health care, housing allowance, retirement plan and vacation -- is superior. He says his wife and children enjoy living in the United Arab Emirates, and "from a professional standpoint, it couldn't be better."
http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...0504184043.gif In a new twist on global outsourcing, a flock of U.S. pilots is fleeing the depressed North American airline industry to work in far reaches of the world where aviation is booming. After the 2001 terrorist attacks stifled air travel and sent the U.S. industry into its deepest decline ever, more than 10,000 U.S. pilots were laid off, and many more took early retirement. Despite subsequent hiring by a few healthy carriers, including Southwest Airlines, thousands haven't been able to find new flying jobs at their old pay grades.
At the same time, the industry is expanding rapidly in China, India, Southeast Asia and the Middle East. As these regions have grown more affluent and loosened aviation restrictions, travel demand has soared. New airlines have started up, existing carriers are adding routes, and hundreds of new jets are on order.
So, like British and Australian pilots who long have plied their trade wherever they find work, more Yanks are taking their skills offshore. They are doing so despite trepidations about moving families, flying on short-term contracts, and sometimes giving up union rights to be called back to work by U.S. carriers according to seniority.
U.S. pilots are working as far afield as Bolivia, China, Qatar and Vietnam. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific Airways and Singapore Airlines are hiring more Americans, as are carriers in Taiwan and South Korea, and increasingly, in India.
The diaspora is one symptom of a growing global shortage of well-trained commercial pilots. Aerospace giant Boeing Co. estimates the global jet fleet will grow to more than 35,000 airplanes in 2024, from fewer than 17,000 in 2004. Boeing pegs demand for new pilots at nearly 18,000 a year through 2024. China alone will need more than 35,000 new pilots over 20 years, and the rest of Asia will need 56,500, the company estimates. Many countries are currently unable to train enough pilots at home.
The result: a global bazaar where experienced pilots go to the highest bidder. Norwegians and Venezuelans are flying in China, Egyptians and Russians in India, Jamaicans and Iranians for a Japanese carrier. Four out of five pilots at Qatar Airways are foreign. More than 70 Philippine Airlines pilots have quit since 2003 for better-paying jobs elsewhere. Etihad Airways, a new airline based in Abu Dhabi, says its No. 1 source of pilots is Malaysia. India's fleet of startup carriers was so plagued by pilot poaching that the government last year began requiring pilots to serve at least six months at one carrier before moving on.
G.R. Gopinath, managing director for Air Deccan, a two-year-old budget airline in India, says he has been recruiting a dozen pilots a month from overseas. "If Indian software engineers can work in the U.S., their pilots can come and work here," he says. "It's reverse body-shopping." Pilot job fairs in the U.S. have begun attracting recruiters for Chinese and Indian startups, according to Kit Darby, president of Air Inc., a placement firm.
The hiring frenzy has led to some safety concerns. English is the industry's world-wide language. Putting two pilots with different native languages in the same cockpit, where they might have to interact with an air-traffic controller whose native tongue is different still, can lead to problems, especially in emergencies, contends Dennis Dolan, a retired Delta Air Lines captain and president of the U.K.-based International Federation of Air Line Pilots' Associations, which represents pilot unions and associations in 95 countries.
The International Civil Aviation Organization, an agency of the United Nations, intends in 2008 to begin English-proficiency testing of pilots and air-traffic controllers who handle international flights. India proposed that measure after a 1996 accident in which the flight crew of a Kazakh Airways jet misunderstood an Indian controller's instructions, leading to a midair collision with a Saudi Arabian Airlines plane near New Delhi. India also cited the 1995 crash of an American Airlines jet near Cali, Colombia, in which miscommunication between a Colombian controller and a U.S. crew was a contributing factor.
Jim Burin, director of technical programs for the Alexandria, Va.-based Flight Safety Foundation, an international nonprofit group, points to another safety concern. "In some cultures, it's not the place of the second-in-command to question the first-in-command," he says. That could interfere with the co-pilot's role as a check on the captain, who commands the flight.
http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...0504194902.gif One pilot who moved from a U.S. airline to a national carrier in Southeast Asia says that informational updates on safety at his new employer arrive late or not at all, and that little attention is paid to punctuality or how many hours pilots work. "Training for the most part is far from the quality I was used to in the U.S.," says the 55-year-old captain, who asked not to be identified for fear of angering his employer. He adds that he likes the lifestyle and finds the job "relatively easy."
Capt. Murray, who flies out of Dubai, says safety standards are high at Emirates, and its 1,350 pilots from 70 nations speak fluent English. He says pilots are "treated with respect in this part of the world. We're driven to work. We're put in four- and five-star hotels, on the concierge floors. Captains are treated as vice presidents of the organization."
Some out-of-work U.S. pilots balk at going overseas for family reasons. Some hope to be recalled by U.S. carriers and don't want to give up their seniority rights. Duane Woerth, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, a U.S. union, says foreign carriers are interested in senior pilots, not junior ones. He worries about the "brain drain" and whether foreign carriers are using U.S. pilots only temporarily until they can staff up with their own citizens. But "our guys are warming up to it," he says. "This one looks like a permanent structural shift."
Andrew Baedke, who was furloughed by Northwest Airlines after Sept. 11, has worked for the past three years as a Honolulu-based 747 first officer, or co-pilot, for Jalways, a subsidiary of Japan Airlines. "A lot of my [laid-off] friends are sitting at home or working for Home Depot," says Mr. Baedke, who is 36 years old. "I'm glad to have this job. It's extremely stable."
One reason for the pilot shortage is that developing nations aren't training enough of them at home. There are not enough flight schools in the world to meet demand, says Brent Mills, the chief executive officer of Spartan College of Aeronautics and Technology, a flight academy in Tulsa, Okla., that plans to open schools in India with a local partner in the next year. It takes many years for a college graduate to accumulate sufficient flight training and commercial flying hours to climb the professional ladder from novice to first officer to captain.
Some nations, such as Japan and Ethiopia, have raised the mandatory retirement age for commercial pilots to alleviate the shortage. ICAO, the U.N. agency, will recommend later this year that the age be raised to 65 from 60, although member nations will not be required to do so.
The Chinese government runs a school in Sichuan province that graduated 307 novice pilots last year. China Southern Airlines, the nation's largest carrier by fleet size, has its own school in Australia. In 2004, four Chinese investors opened Beijing PanAm International Aviation Academy, which 240 students now attend.
Nevertheless, Gao Hongfeng, deputy director of the Civil Aviation Administration of China, says there are almost enough native pilots to staff the new airplanes China has on order, but it will be difficult for the nation to train enough "mature captains" quickly.
Chinese airlines are filling in with expatriates. Tim Shattock, chief executive of Parc Aviation Ltd., a Dublin firm that leases pilots to airlines, says "our intelligence says there are 120 to 150 foreign pilots in mainland China."
India counts more. Deregulation has spawned startup airlines, an influx of international flights, and 20% annual passenger growth. India expects to need 2,500 new pilots by 2010. At Jet Airways, the nation's largest private carrier, 111 of its 685 pilots are foreign. Air Deccan has 75 foreigners among its 250 pilots, and is setting up its own flight school in Bangalore.
Compensation for the foreign gigs varies widely. But it is often better than what U.S. pilots can earn at home, where pay levels and benefits have been reduced by bankruptcy filings and restructurings. Richard Paul, an 18-year US Airways veteran who was bumped from captain to first officer during one round of layoffs, says he plans to quit soon and report for training to fly cargo at a large Asian carrier he declines to identify. The 46-year-old pilot says he will start as a first officer, but "in four or five years, I'll probably be a captain on a 747 and make twice as much" as the $72,000 a year he currently earns.
India's Air Deccan is offering $8,000 to $15,000 a month to foreign captains, according to Mr. Gopinath, the managing director. A captain in the U.S. on Northwest's smallest jet earns about $9,000 a month, while a captain on United Airlines's largest plane earns about $15,000, according to a recent survey by Air Inc.
American Craig Harnden, formerly a pilot for now-defunct Eastern Airlines, has worked overseas since 1990 for Saudi Arabian Airlines, Thai Airways International and now Singapore Airlines. "If I had known what I know now, I would probably have left Eastern and gone overseas a lot earlier," says the 59-year-old Miami native, who lives in Singapore. "But we didn't leave the airlines because of the seniority system."
William Goodwin left the U.S. in 1994 after working for two airlines that went under and a third that was acquired. He says he nearly doubled his pay by moving to Taiwan to captain 767s for Taipei-based EVA Air. "It was the smartest thing I've ever done," he says. He jumped to Korean Air in 2000, where as a captain of 747s he earns $152,000 a year after Korean taxes. The 54-year-old pilot says he hopes to stay until he retires at 60.
Mr. Baedke, the former Northwest pilot who now flies out of Honolulu for Jalways under a crew-leasing contract, says he's trying to spread the word to other American pilots. Many of his pilot friends, he says, were laid off after 9/11 and have not yet been called back.
As a first officer, Mr. Baedke earns $100 an hour, or $105,000 last year. He expects to begin training next month to become a captain, a process he says could take 2½ years. If he succeeds, his pay will climb to $150 an hour for the first 50 hours flown each month, and $180 an hour for anything exceeding that.
He no longer gives much thought to returning to Northwest. "Even if I had a chance to go back, I think I'd be at [a regional subsidiary] as a first officer, earning $23 an hour," he says. "There's no point."

Wall Street Journal on Expat Pilots (including EK)
 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1146...0.html?mod=DAI
With Jobs Scarce, U.S. Pilots Sign On At Foreign Airlines
Global Travel Boom Yields Tempting Pay for Expats; Concerns About Safety
A Captain's New Life in Dubai
By SUSAN CAREY in Chicago, BRUCE STANLEY in Hong Kong, AND JOHN LARKIN in Mumbai
May 5, 2006; Page A1

Nearly two years ago, at age 51, Brian Murray took early retirement from US Airways. The pilot was outraged by the airline's termination of his pension plan and worried about his future with a carrier sliding toward bankruptcy court for the second time.
http://www.gtek.us/share/ata/HC-GH95...0504184043.gif
But Capt. Murray's flying career was far from over. Today he lives in Dubai and flies wide-body Airbus A330s for fast-growing Emirates Airlines, winging to exotic destinations in Europe, Africa and Asia. He's home more than he ever was at US Airways, and his total compensation package -- including health care, housing allowance, retirement plan and vacation -- is superior. He says his wife and children enjoy living in the United Arab Emirates, and "from a professional standpoint, it couldn't be better."

In a new twist on global outsourcing, a flock of U.S. pilots is fleeing the depressed North American airline industry to work in far reaches of the world where aviation is booming. After the 2001 terrorist attacks stifled air travel and sent the U.S. industry into its deepest decline ever, more than 10,000 U.S. pilots were laid off, and many more took early retirement. Despite subsequent hiring by a few healthy carriers, including Southwest Airlines, thousands haven't been able to find new flying jobs at their old pay grades.
At the same time, the industry is expanding rapidly in China, India, Southeast Asia and the Middle East. As these regions have grown more affluent and loosened aviation restrictions, travel demand has soared. New airlines have started up, existing carriers are adding routes, and hundreds of new jets are on order.

So, like British and Australian pilots who long have plied their trade wherever they find work, more Yanks are taking their skills offshore. They are doing so despite trepidations about moving families, flying on short-term contracts, and sometimes giving up union rights to be called back to work by U.S. carriers according to seniority.

U.S. pilots are working as far afield as Bolivia, China, Qatar and Vietnam. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific Airways and Singapore Airlines are hiring more Americans, as are carriers in Taiwan and South Korea, and increasingly, in India.

The diaspora is one symptom of a growing global shortage of well-trained commercial pilots. Aerospace giant Boeing Co. estimates the global jet fleet will grow to more than 35,000 airplanes in 2024, from fewer than 17,000 in 2004. Boeing pegs demand for new pilots at nearly 18,000 a year through 2024. China alone will need more than 35,000 new pilots over 20 years, and the rest of Asia will need 56,500, the company estimates. Many countries are currently unable to train enough pilots at home.

The result: a global bazaar where experienced pilots go to the highest bidder. Norwegians and Venezuelans are flying in China, Egyptians and Russians in India, Jamaicans and Iranians for a Japanese carrier. Four out of five pilots at Qatar Airways are foreign. More than 70 Philippine Airlines pilots have quit since 2003 for better-paying jobs elsewhere. Etihad Airways, a new airline based in Abu Dhabi, says its No. 1 source of pilots is Malaysia. India's fleet of startup carriers was so plagued by pilot poaching that the government last year began requiring pilots to serve at least six months at one carrier before moving on.

G.R. Gopinath, managing director for Air Deccan, a two-year-old budget airline in India, says he has been recruiting a dozen pilots a month from overseas. "If Indian software engineers can work in the U.S., their pilots can come and work here," he says. "It's reverse body-shopping." Pilot job fairs in the U.S. have begun attracting recruiters for Chinese and Indian startups, according to Kit Darby, president of Air Inc., a placement firm.

The hiring frenzy has led to some safety concerns. English is the industry's world-wide language. Putting two pilots with different native languages in the same cockpit, where they might have to interact with an air-traffic controller whose native tongue is different still, can lead to problems, especially in emergencies, contends Dennis Dolan, a retired Delta Air Lines captain and president of the U.K.-based International Federation of Air Line Pilots' Associations, which represents pilot unions and associations in 95 countries.
The International Civil Aviation Organization, an agency of the United Nations, intends in 2008 to begin English-proficiency testing of pilots and air-traffic controllers who handle international flights. India proposed that measure after a 1996 accident in which the flight crew of a Kazakh Airways jet misunderstood an Indian controller's instructions, leading to a midair collision with a Saudi Arabian Airlines plane near New Delhi. India also cited the 1995 crash of an American Airlines jet near Cali, Colombia, in which miscommunication between a Colombian controller and a U.S. crew was a contributing factor.

Jim Burin, director of technical programs for the Alexandria, Va.-based Flight Safety Foundation, an international nonprofit group, points to another safety concern. "In some cultures, it's not the place of the second-in-command to question the first-in-command," he says. That could interfere with the co-pilot's role as a check on the captain, who commands the flight.

One pilot who moved from a U.S. airline to a national carrier in Southeast Asia says that informational updates on safety at his new employer arrive late or not at all, and that little attention is paid to punctuality or how many hours pilots work. "Training for the most part is far from the quality I was used to in the U.S.," says the 55-year-old captain, who asked not to be identified for fear of angering his employer. He adds that he likes the lifestyle and finds the job "relatively easy."
Capt. Murray, who flies out of Dubai, says safety standards are high at Emirates, and its 1,350 pilots from 70 nations speak fluent English. He says pilots are "treated with respect in this part of the world. We're driven to work. We're put in four- and five-star hotels, on the concierge floors. Captains are treated as vice presidents of the organization."

Some out-of-work U.S. pilots balk at going overseas for family reasons. Some hope to be recalled by U.S. carriers and don't want to give up their seniority rights. Duane Woerth, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, a U.S. union, says foreign carriers are interested in senior pilots, not junior ones. He worries about the "brain drain" and whether foreign carriers are using U.S. pilots only temporarily until they can staff up with their own citizens. But "our guys are warming up to it," he says. "This one looks like a permanent structural shift."

Andrew Baedke, who was furloughed by Northwest Airlines after Sept. 11, has worked for the past three years as a Honolulu-based 747 first officer, or co-pilot, for Jalways, a subsidiary of Japan Airlines. "A lot of my [laid-off] friends are sitting at home or working for Home Depot," says Mr. Baedke, who is 36 years old. "I'm glad to have this job. It's extremely stable."

One reason for the pilot shortage is that developing nations aren't training enough of them at home. There are not enough flight schools in the world to meet demand, says Brent Mills, the chief executive officer of Spartan College of Aeronautics and Technology, a flight academy in Tulsa, Okla., that plans to open schools in India with a local partner in the next year. It takes many years for a college graduate to accumulate sufficient flight training and commercial flying hours to climb the professional ladder from novice to first officer to captain.

Some nations, such as Japan and Ethiopia, have raised the mandatory retirement age for commercial pilots to alleviate the shortage. ICAO, the U.N. agency, will recommend later this year that the age be raised to 65 from 60, although member nations will not be required to do so.

The Chinese government runs a school in Sichuan province that graduated 307 novice pilots last year. China Southern Airlines, the nation's largest carrier by fleet size, has its own school in Australia. In 2004, four Chinese investors opened Beijing PanAm International Aviation Academy, which 240 students now attend.

Nevertheless, Gao Hongfeng, deputy director of the Civil Aviation Administration of China, says there are almost enough native pilots to staff the new airplanes China has on order, but it will be difficult for the nation to train enough "mature captains" quickly.

Chinese airlines are filling in with expatriates. Tim Shattock, chief executive of Parc Aviation Ltd., a Dublin firm that leases pilots to airlines, says "our intelligence says there are 120 to 150 foreign pilots in mainland China."
India counts more. Deregulation has spawned startup airlines, an influx of international flights, and 20% annual passenger growth. India expects to need 2,500 new pilots by 2010. At Jet Airways, the nation's largest private carrier, 111 of its 685 pilots are foreign. Air Deccan has 75 foreigners among its 250 pilots, and is setting up its own flight school in Bangalore.

Compensation for the foreign gigs varies widely. But it is often better than what U.S. pilots can earn at home, where pay levels and benefits have been reduced by bankruptcy filings and restructurings. Richard Paul, an 18-year US Airways veteran who was bumped from captain to first officer during one round of layoffs, says he plans to quit soon and report for training to fly cargo at a large Asian carrier he declines to identify. The 46-year-old pilot says he will start as a first officer, but "in four or five years, I'll probably be a captain on a 747 and make twice as much" as the $72,000 a year he currently earns.

India's Air Deccan is offering $8,000 to $15,000 a month to foreign captains, according to Mr. Gopinath, the managing director. A captain in the U.S. on Northwest's smallest jet earns about $9,000 a month, while a captain on United Airlines's largest plane earns about $15,000, according to a recent survey by Air Inc.

American Craig Harnden, formerly a pilot for now-defunct Eastern Airlines, has worked overseas since 1990 for Saudi Arabian Airlines, Thai Airways International and now Singapore Airlines. "If I had known what I know now, I would probably have left Eastern and gone overseas a lot earlier," says the 59-year-old Miami native, who lives in Singapore. "But we didn't leave the airlines because of the seniority system."

William Goodwin left the U.S. in 1994 after working for two airlines that went under and a third that was acquired. He says he nearly doubled his pay by moving to Taiwan to captain 767s for Taipei-based EVA Air. "It was the smartest thing I've ever done," he says. He jumped to Korean Air in 2000, where as a captain of 747s he earns $152,000 a year after Korean taxes. The 54-year-old pilot says he hopes to stay until he retires at 60.

Mr. Baedke, the former Northwest pilot who now flies out of Honolulu for Jalways under a crew-leasing contract, says he's trying to spread the word to other American pilots. Many of his pilot friends, he says, were laid off after 9/11 and have not yet been called back.

As a first officer, Mr. Baedke earns $100 an hour, or $105,000 last year. He expects to begin training next month to become a captain, a process he says could take 2½ years. If he succeeds, his pay will climb to $150 an hour for the first 50 hours flown each month, and $180 an hour for anything exceeding that.

He no longer gives much thought to returning to Northwest. "Even if I had a chance to go back, I think I'd be at [a regional subsidiary] as a first officer, earning $23 an hour," he says. "There's no point."

---- Juying Qin in Hong Kong contributed to this article.

Other EK Pilots Care to Comment?
 

QUOTE: Capt. Murray, who flies out of Dubai, says safety standards are high at Emirates, and its 1,350 pilots from 70 nations speak fluent English. He says pilots are "treated with respect in this part of the world. We're driven to work. We're put in four- and five-star hotels, on the concierge floors. Captains are treated as vice presidents of the organization."



From what I have read here that seems not to be the case!!
Spanner

Captains are treated as vice presidents of the organization."
 

Not Feckin likely. There is a vast difference between the way VP's are treated and the way pilots are treated. Not the least being they get 2X profit share!!!!!!

I find that somewhat difficult to believe but if he says it's true... what aircraft type was he previously operating?Now I know he's smokin' some good ganjaweed. I wonder how many yanks are swallowing this pile, back home in the US of A?

Capt. Murray for CPA
 

Hmmm...a two year DEC, who didn't have to jump through the command hoops here crowing about how good it is...

Pleased to see you have found a place to top off your retirement funds, obviously soon for the management ranks.

Look forward to seeing you in CBC...

Ahhhhh, KOOL-AID, I love it, please serve me another glass, half full it is!!!!!!!

after this article, me thinks that b-52s over iran is not the only potential u.s. invasion we need to wory about in the region. :uhoh:

Humans
 

In terms of thinking of Humans as humans as opposed to a disposable capatalist resource, both these 'groups' of people, are very close. Let them come and discover each other. Could be a good match! Hurry up MAS

mr b. murray is an ostler

SR, Whats an ostler?

From where he has come he likes the way EK are doing things. Mind you, finding good things about EK compared to US Air is probably not too difficult at the moment. He has left an airline that has screwed him on his pension deal to come to the Middle East and things actually look better. From his years with US Air, he also has the advantage of a nice house in the States and a nest already pretty much feathered to go back to. That is if his investment pronouncements on the pilot's group are to believed.

As a DEC he has jumped the F/O queue and not seen how EK's package has deteriorated over the last few years. So he was on the top rung of US Airs ladder and as that has sunk into the mud he has jumped onto EK's ladder pretty high up. The snag is that our ladder is sinking too; just a bit slower!

Wasn't he one of the guys that went to the pilot recuitment symposiums in LA and Atlanta? So the word you are getting from the Wall Street Journal are the words the recruitment department of the company would like to put out. It is probably the word that most of us would have put out too during our first couple of years. The fact that Brian jumped the seniority list on the way could only add gloss to that impression. Don't worry though, it won't be long before he starts to spot there is sand in Dubai; as the ladder sinks further into it!

Captains in the airline are treated with respect! since when?

Staying in 4 and 5 star hotels, what's BNE then? 3 bloody star that's what.

Are you living in a dream world Brian? :yuk:

Hi Guys ............ love the article

Isnt this one of those US CSI Police sketches of a man who is wanted by the authorities.:E
http://www.gtek.us/share/ata/HC-GH95...0504184043.gif

Sounds to me like he loves it here and seems very happy. Good on ya mate.

TR:ok:

ps... are you the guy that went to the states on the EK road show to help recruit more DEC's.......if so how did it go?

Funny everytime I drink the Kool-aid on the aircraft it always tastes like sour grapes to me, must be drinking the wrong stuff, perhaps a little Dalwhinnie (Distiller's Edition) mixed-in might give me the same outlook......hmm:rolleyes:

Dooner:ok:

The Brian bashing is getting out of hand. Just because he thinks this is better than USAirways, and you all disagree does not make him wrong or you right. Coming from Usair as well I fully understand his position. And it is not only Usair, it is now most of the US mainline pilots that can tell the same story as Brian. Since Sept 11, the pilots of Usair have taken a 53% paycut, had their pension fund disolved,parked nearly 200 jets, the smallest being the F100 and had nearly 2000 pilots loose their jobs. That along with nearly 1000 resignations and retirements has played havoc on their seniority. The junior pilot on the Usair active list was hired in March of 1988. He is the bottom First Officer at the company and he WAS a captain for 4 years on the 737. You will all find that most of the former Usair pilots at EK think that this is a very good job. I did not say it is the best, but it is better than most.
Most of you bashers need to understand that his reality is very different from yours. Your attacks are are unworthy and lacking any sence of professionalism. If you hate it here that much, than show some balls and quit. If this is as bad of a job as you say it is than vote with your feet. And if you just can not take it any more, than I encourage you to visit this website: www.airlineride.org
It is about a group of people who are doing a bike ride across the states to pay honor to the crews who died on Sept 11. It was organized by a guy named Tom Heidenberger who is a Usair pilot who lost his wife on the pentagon airplane. I have known Tommy for years and encourage you all to support this effort. When you think that you job is in the crapper, think of Tom. As he so clearly knows, your life could be a lot worse.
And also to all of those non EK pilots who read these forums remember, there are 2 sides to any story, usually the complainers are far fewer but much more vocal. There are things that I do not like at EK but I choose to make it a good job and enjoy it to the fullest, and this like any job is what you make of it. Even though there are things that Brian and I disagree on, I know that he enjoys this job to the fullest as well. He has the right to state his opinions, and you have the right to vocally disagree. No one has the right to attack him. (what is an ostler)?
Regards,
330 Man

Who deleted my post?:mad:



The system logs clearly state that you deleted the post CJD. An attempt to edit it and some finger trouble perhaps? PPRuNE Admin

Thanks Capt J

that has put a new perspective on the pencil drawing above:E

EK had to approve that article before publication. If it wasnt approved..... then the article goes against the rules of engagement..oops.... I meant employment. So I can only conclude this is another advert from EK to recruit more US pilots.

Hello 330 man

I am very sorry to hear about what has happened to you and your colleages in the States.........good on ya for loving it here in the sand:O
......if you havent noticed you have gone up the list about 50 slots....since last year due to pilots leaving...........and what is wrong with giving an opinion to others who may be looking at coming, and perhaps allowing them to come to the selection process a little more informed on some of the untold aspects of being in Dubai.


as far as the captains being treated as VP's of the organisation....do we have to start all of that again......there are plenty of examples of exactly the opposite happening........ I remeber it was an expat American who got nailed on the 777 recently for submitting paper work on an incident that he was involved in. So come 330 man at least be honest.

by the way you have contradicted yourself...you say

"The Brian bashing is getting out of hand"

I dont see anyone bashing Brian........and you then go on to say

"you have the right to vocally disagree"

thank you for allowing me to disagree........ So which is it .........can we or cant we?

TR:ok:

If Captain Murray had been invited to join Emirates 10 years ago he would have laughed at the idea.

If 10 years ago someone from Emirates had been invited to join USair as a Captain with 10 years payscale seniority........

Fact is both USair and Emirates are worse places now than they were 10 years ago. USair by necessity and circumstance. Emirates by management inclination as a short term strategy with unfortunate long term implications.

I have no real issue with Captain Murray taking advantage of what is on offer. I do have an issue with him promoting it as some sort of aviation nirvana when most who have been here more than 5 minutes know otherwise.

As long as flight deck seats are filled management consider that they are doing their job.

Every legal day that I have been off in the last 3 months I have been rung by rostering to fly (for the shop stewards benefit I agreed to one change).

The system is close to breaking. And it needs to break because until it does we will continue to work to the maximum with minimum lifestyle and minimum compensation.

Step forward typhoonpilot and your familia. Dont be shy.

Well....since you invited me :)

I said it on the other thread and I'll say it again here, the comment in regards to how pilot's are treated,

" You guys are being a bit harsh. The comment was meant in the context of how pilots are treated by their employers in the States versus how they are treated while working overseas and/or at EK. It may be a surprise to some of you but, it is far better at EK than it is at most of the failing U.S. carriers."

Those of you who know who I am know that I have been here twice as long as Brian and I wouldn't even begin to consider going back to a job at a U.S. major. In fact, I shudder at the thought. I, too, enjoy my job at EK and my life in Dubai and I'm not afraid to tell people back home about it. They deserve to hear that there are other options. You may disagree, that's fine, but don't shoot the messenger.


Typhoonpilot

Brian bashing hasn't started yet.

Wait till CBC and isn't he the "billy-no-mates" that always tags along for a game of golf at the Ranches.....not anymore.

He jumped the que and now makes waves; NICE.

So, things at USair were very good and now they are very bad.
Things at EK were quite good and now they are quite bad.

During this process USair has apparently declined further than Emirates, typhoonpilot has first hand knowledge of this, I do not.

Difference is that USair has probably bottomed out, EK is still sinking. The problems are different, the result is the same.

Disgruntled employees looking for an out.

Doubtless Direct Entry and Accelerated Commands act as softeners to the perspectives of Captain Murray and typhoonpilot.

The perspective of many others in EK, particularly the long termers, is one of more work, less reward, increase in fatigue enhancing rosters and a seniority list thrown aside and overidden by DECs and fleet requirements.

And please, 330 man, no more comments about voting with feet. Although many have done so, as many in the last 18 months as in the 10 years before, others have family considerations that make an uprooting appear even less attractive than staying (so far). And they may be the most vocal people on this forum.

I bashed Brian, and I happen to be happy at EK too. The two positions aren't mutually exclusive. He has "management wannabe" written all over him. I find it quite revolting to see him in action actually. Yes, to each his own, that's true. However, I hear he has become, or is about to become a TRI. Watch this space and mark my words, you'll see that guy in flight ops management in short order. If he becomes CPA or anything along those lines I'll be the first one to put in for a transition to the 'Dark Side' (the boeing fleet), 9 day trips not withstanding, as it would be by far the lesser of two evils. It is an extremely rare event for me to meet someone and develop a strong dislike for them in a matter of minutes. Mr. Murray holds this distinction. I don't bash him for being happy here. It's just that, for other reasons, I suspect that he has ulterior motives. Well hey, he did manage to get his likeness in the WSJ, so that must count for something:8
Yardman

I sure am glad this article was not printed before any pay review...Doh!

I might have to talk to the EK pilot rep that sits on the pay review board to see what effect it has had....oops, sorry, I forgot this is EK.

We all know that this is a PR push by a desperate company. What choice did the fella have but to quote the company line. Seems this is his holy grail of a job, and you can not expect him to throw his only chance of feeding himself away.

Three failed road shows and now the use of a US rag trying to get people. I wonder what they will discover next?

Don.

Hi Guys

We need captainjohndo to repost his deleted response. Fact or fiction who knows...it was still great. :E

Cant wait to meet this self proclaimed Guru in the sim.....I am sure he is a very very very very nice guy.

Well guys it looks like we are all on individual contracts. I am off to the office to get myself a raise:ok:

Hmmmmm.:* ......... I wonder if I should start playing golf first..... then asked them on the 9th for 10%....let them win the next few holes and by the 15th I should be good for 20%.....give the bosses an hand on the 18th to pull a great round by dropping a few shots......and at the 19th, while buying endless amounts of Dutch courage, hit them up for a good 30%. :ok:

Now thats the way to do business.

Does everybody in America want to go Hollywood? EK is starting to sound like Amercain Idol.......its all about the audition.:cool:

Well done cowboy....you are going to be very famous around these here parts.

Off to the office......vvvvvrrrrrrrmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!! ssssccccrrrrreeeeeeccccchhhhhhhhhhh. ...changed my mind...I am going to the beach.

TR:ok:

Capt Brian has all the right in the world to be happy, and, 330 man's post stated some very good advice as to being what you want when you want......

But when I've to endure a DEC ex US Air dude that has done nothing better to do than whine about the training, the culture and that "in US Air we did it this way and we did it that way", and Fo's should only speak when required to, you've got to wonder what were the elite of American aviation thinking coming here!

Sure his name is "Brian"? or did he shave the goatie off.:eek:

I wonder what BRIAN would have said, 5 or 6 years ago, if USair had decided they needed to recruit DEC's to keep the costs down. So they searched the world for a few qualified guys and managed to attract a couple of boeing and airbus qualified captains from the middle east who, conveniently for them, slotted in ahead of say 600 F/O's who were equally, or perhaps more, qualified to do the job of a captain, but hey, the company needed to save money.

Then after being in USair for a while, on captains salary of course, decided he should speak to his fellow aviators still in the middle east and tell them what a great job USair is. Man you just pitch up and step straight into the left hand seat. How good is that. You guys should come on over. Sure you're screwing the careers of several hundred F/O's but don't worry about that. Look after number one I say!

When BRIAN next goes flying and finds that the F/O has sh*t in his shoes while he was out having a p*ss. Maybe he should take time to reflect just how inflamatory his little cameo in the WSJ might be percieved by some displaced F/O.

It appears that some of the poor folks who have recently joined EK having turned their backs on the grand 'ol U.S.of A. are still suffering from shell shock and what must have been severe torture at their previous carriers.

Some form of the "Stockholm Syndrome" seems to have inflicted them, as it seems to do with most new joiners at EK...sad really.

Maybe talking to the media from a position of total ignorance or is it total arrogance is theraputic for some. :yuk:

I do believe brother Brian will be crawling into the CBC next time wearing an Abiya. ps I dont know how to spell "abiya" nor do I care. After all the years here I still can't spell araprick. !!! :p

Oh Brian what a complete and utter idiot you are, you have managed to make yourself the most hated person in EK very well done.
You join a company stepping over F/O's as you go and then have the cheek to say how great life is, well i can safely say that your life will will probably not be as happy from now on as you will be held in utter contempt by your collegues. I think they have names for people like you stateside.

I realize this is like tilting at windmills with you guys, but I have to chime in yet again.

The EK roadshows are not aimed at DECs specifically. They are informational presentations to let the wider pilot population know more details about a career at Emirates. Some people who are DEC qualified do attend, but the majority are ones who would like to join as First Officers. Many airlines present at job fairs; including Cathay Pacific, Southwest, Air India, etc. They are airlines that are looking for pilots. As it is becoming an increasingly tight market the airlines that actively advertise for pilots will be able to attract better qualified applicants.

The use of the term Sxxx for anyone other than a person who crosses a union picket line is incorrect and, quite honestly, stupid. As has been said on this forum many times, those of you who do leave EK will most likely be doing so as DECs at another airline so get off your high horses in regards to the name calling ( P.S. this does not mean I endorse DECs, it's just that you can't blame the person who takes an opportunity offered. )



Typhoonpilot

Your are absolutely correct. Unions in the States would never allow an airline to take advantage of commercial opportunities as they arise. They would never allow an airline to buy 8 unanticipated aircraft at the spur of the moment. They would never allow an airline the ability to increase revenue if it didn't directly benefit them.

Here are some of the things my union back home did for me in my career:

1) They allowed me and 301 other pilots to be furloughed for 8 years while senior 767 Captains flew 10 extra hours per month to pad their retirement account.
2) They did not allow the company to take an award for a lucrative Trans-Pacific route. They were scared it would be outsourced just because it was going to be flown by another airline until they could obtain an additional aircraft or two to fly it themselves.
3) They continually negotiated contracts that only benefited the senior pilots in regards to reserve duty and work rules. This effectively kept 30% of the pilots on reserve for over a decade.

Shall we talk about what the Australian pilot's union did for their members in the late 80s ?

Yeah, Unions are great. :rolleyes: :yuk:

TP

TP have U been in a war (actual) before?
 

Have you been in combat before? Because U have the biggest mouth of any other fighter pilots I have flown with!!

So Brian,when do you start your new job in the office?

Youve done everyone here a huge favour(favor) with your glossy article.NOT

Im sorry for what happened at USAir,but ONE simple question for TP and 330 man;-

Did or would USAir take a DEC from overseas out of seniority??

I think we all know the answer to that,dont we Brian?

Cheers,off to the pub for a few.QB:*

TP,

I am very proud being from OZ, and part of the 89 group who thought of others before ourselves in order to improve things for all OZ pilots.

I did what I did because I thought it was right although it caused my family great hardship.

I and my fellow countrymen came out here when you and your mates did not know where the middle east was. For that matter lots of you do not realise that Iran and Iraq are different countries and not a spelling mistake...

If Brian wants to come out here and fly to feed his family, I have no problem with that. If he wants to apply for TRI because he deserves it on merit I have no problem with that.

I cannot however see, how can you or anyone else defend a guy who plays golf with Ed, socializes with Alan and expects to get ahead not on merit but on the boys club network.

Brian deserves all the flack he is getting because he not only joined as a DEC out of seniority, not only does he complain about not flying the A340, he does not have the charecter to wait his turn and apply like the other 100 or so pilots to get a promotion on merit.

He shows complete discontent towards all his EK colleagues, and is so focused in getting his management position that is willing to sell his everything, even if it means being loose with the truth in the WSJ article.

Go participate in a cause, fight a battle for others, and then come and critisize me and my colleagues for being vocal...
By the way I hear that CC is being put forward for CPA

Captainjohndoe:

Please don't take my union comment on the 89ers as a slight on those pilots, it was not. It was a comment on how unions can lead people down the wrong path to the membership's detriment. Much like what happened to the guys at Continental and Eastern.

My grandmother was a union organizer in New York during the sweatshop era of the 20s and 30s. She was one tough woman in her day. So I don't need a lesson on unions or self sacrifice. Unfortunately, in my country, the union's of today only seems to exist for the benefit of the national staff and the very senior members within each local unit. They will, and do, sacrifice the junior members to protect their own interests. It wasn't that way in my grandmother's day.

TP

Well there you go, he meets all the basic criteria to become a manager with us :D

Have an idea that the passage typhoonpilot refers to here was posted by an F/O, his comment was maybe more to do with being on the receiving end of a sim session with 'trainer Brian'.

Not met 'Brian' but I feel I know him quite well already.

Typhoon Pilot
 

Whilst i generally don't agree with much you say, I respect your right to say it, particularly because you generally put it in a fairly factual manner.

Your defence of BRIAN however has lost you any credibility that you may still have posessed.

His actions and attitude are indefensible. I'm sorry to see that you take his side. But at least we now know that you place country before colleagues.

Isn't there a movie about the Life of Brian? I believe in it he was portrayed as being and I quote, "not the messiah, but just a very naughty boy!". Seems he has not changed much.
There was also some mention about his mother and Romans, but I think we should stay away from that one.

Don

Thanks whossorrynow

you are correct I was referring to being on the recieving end of Trainer Brian.........err does that make me??????:ugh: ...mmmmmmm thinking out aloud there....:cool:

sorry Typhoon ........I guess I am ok to continue as cleared.....confirm it was the "BUST BRIAN CHOPS " arrival.....Rwy 30R

off to work...nighty night

TR:ok: