Overseas Bases in Emirates....
 

Due to the shortage of secondary school places in DXB, have Emirates considered basing crews down-route .
I have been considering applying however, the school issue is a major concern to many.

There have been a couple of "basing" proposals put forward over the years. The most recent one was 2-3 years ago, and the company response, in writing, was a resounding "no". Wouldn't hold your breath on that one.

Anybody considering coming to Dubai must make the decision based on what conditions are at their time of joining. DO NOT expect anything to change for the better. This has all been discussed extensively on the "Ek pilot's meeting" thread if you want more info.

Cheers!

Key Fob,

What would seniority have to do with it and which list are you talking about?! Can you show me a precedence which would back that up?

Ghost:uhoh:

What exactly was their opposition to overseas basings. will their hand be forced by the overcrowding in Dubai.
CX have had crews based down-route for years,seems to work for them ?...:confused:

Emirates and DXB is all about bringing people and money to the UAE. Emirates is by far the biggest employer in DXB and as such contributes a massive amount of money, indirectly, to the local economy, by way of its staff living here. By moving staff overseas, all that money is lost.

So, yes it is arguably operationally better to have staff based (like Cathay), but it doesn't meet the requirements of the government to bring money to DXB. The operating profit of the company comes a distant second to this overiding philosophy. As a case in point, Ek could easily base much of its cabin crew workforce and save millions of dirhams in salaries and accomodation. But they choose to keep them here regardless of the cost impact on the company's bottom line.

I suggest that the only reason that basings will ever be offered is if reasonable jobs are offered O/S that allow people to live in their home coutries, and we start to lose large numbers of drivers.

dmf

Also, keep inmind the new bidding system will make it harder to commute if you were thinking that way

Recently heard EK are looking at making Auckland a pacific hub.
It would certainly solve a few issues arising in Dubai.;)

Propoganda,

That is correct, but it still has no direct connection to basings. They are separate and different issues completely as far as the company is concerned.

dmf

Dmf,

Thanks for that, It's just wishful thinking on my behalf..you don't think the tides are turning then ? DXB isn't the holy grail it once was. I suppose if and when EK have problems recruiting the right quality of pilots they may well reconsider an o/seas base and try and attract some locals.

cheers, Propaganda.

Seaman Staynes

So you do need any more locals eh??

Judging by the JNB incident EK as sure as hell needs something.Can you inform us as to what EK does need rather than telling us what it does not.?:ok: :ok: :ok:

Ms court, , you've made your judgement so why don't you tell us what EK needs...!

Seaman Staynes Thanks for your reply. We need all that you need as well in SQ!!

Back to overseas basings.

SQ were slow to realise the perceived benefits to their bottom line by employing ex BA 55ers on 744 based London especially when exchange rate was around $2.6 =£stg as they were paid in Sterling and none of them were prepared to join if it meant sitting in Singapore ,so that is what happened. Now with $3.15= £stg it is costing them more to employ them also no one thought about how much Singapore Inc would lose out by them not paying Singapore Tax or spending money in Singapore because they are based overseas.

SQ also like to have control of their Pilots as do EK and others I am sure so they were very reluctant to go down the overseas basing route but money was the deciding factor at the time.

Carry on with your dreams! :ok: :ok:

Tax is the key issue.
Emirates pay rates are very low I'm afraid.
No one could afford to pay tax and living expenses outside Dubai on those rates - so you have to live in DXB. (School issues amy not matter to some.)

There is no tax here, petrol is cheaper than bottled water: it's a great place, the sun shines for 364 and a half days a year. Schooling is expensive, and because of the heat, sport for kids, out-doors is not good. Boarding schools inOZ/ SA are approx one 3rd of Dubai day schools, and just as good if not better. The money saved can be spent on ID 90's to visit. I'd rather be on Jumeira Beach than Brighton Beach anytime. No comparison.
tic

Tic,
Is life so bad in the UK that a bit of sunshine in Dubai justifies crap schooling, split families and poor pay!!!!
There are a lot of good things with EK. Mostly work mates.....but really all this talk of sunshine and sitting on the beach does not pay the mortage!
Think of the poor fella who must be joining soon (if not already) who is going to have to survive for a long time on FO pay, as all the commands are taken!!!!!
When work mates get sacked to help cover up other issues, it proves we are all living on borrowed time.
Kids grow up way too quickly..and to have no choice (as many pilots have no choice as of this September) but to send your kids thousands of miles away to get an education...is not a good option (well its not outside of the UK anyway!).
I don't think I ever saw anything other than praise written about EK prior to a few years ago. But then its agenda changed. First with our training department, then with the rest of flight ops. And all we can do is look on as our contract is further erroded.
Wearing the rose tinted glasses does not help our plight...and is certainly not fair to those who are considering giving up good jobs to come here to work. At least try and be truthful, so they may make a fully informed decision.
There are a lot of good things about Dubai and EK. But I think you would be fibbing to mention the pay and education on that list.
Rant over...will now enjoy yet another min rest (like everyone else) before before facing yet another sun rise!
Don

Don Maaaaaate

To help you out with your current condition I am going to prescribe you one trip back to the Great South Land for a few xxxx's, a lie on the beach, and a huge dose of cultcha.

Keep on smilin you old B*****d

The Rev

The reason why there will never be a basing is because the EK lawyers advise against it. It would make EK vulnerable to law suits outside Dubai and they don’t like that at all.

Not so. The lawyers were not even approached.

If you think there is no tax in Dubai, your'e dreaming
What are
Visa's
Import tax (on everything)
Booze shop tax
Extra school fees
Expats paying more for utilities
Wages not adjusted upwards over the last 10 years to match countries with a tax system.
Of course there is tax its just called something else

:ok: A few points:_

If EK want to keep the money in town,then why dont Cathay keep all that money in HK??

Basings/offline basing make total sense,in many ways,but whether it will happen at EK,remains to be seen,I think the "money in Dubai" is a smokescreen,mast pilots send large amounts home,the day after pay day.

With an A340 stuck downroute,through sickness,or tech,and looking to A380,cancelling flights downroute(AKL?SYD?JFK?) will have major implications,for crew duty limits,and getting crew together.

Mr Knowles was opposed to commuters(why??),but the new system is proving so far to give decent spells of time off,and with him gone,several trainers,returning for better rosters,the number of existing commuters,is set to increase,not decrease.

To expound the problem,are issues such as lack of school places,and they dont happen overnight,housing could also be a problem.

I dont think basings are for everyone,but for EK to "offer" a basing,as an option,in your career,would be a real attraction to many prospective EK pilots.IMHO.

I for one will watch the coming months and years with interest.

QB

EK have staff all over the world.

Res, airport-dispatch/managers, sales, engineers, admin, etc.....

To say they don't want basings because of local laws is utter cr@p.

halas

Quod boy

A couple of subtle differences.

Hong Kong was an independent economy that was not ruled by one family. It was probably the most capitalist place on earth for a period. That is a far cry from Dubai where Emirates is a government owned company where the governments entire purpose is to grow the Dubai economy. Cathay was a publicly owned company (the swire portion anyway). Therefore its overiding mission was to return financial results to the owners.

Yes a lot of pilots send some money home. I dont think many send half of it home. Regardless, the other half stays here. Cabin crew send very little home, nearly all of their money stays here.

If you had basings, all of it would go out of the country. Dubai imports almost everything it consumes, so at the moment, the only thing that keeps the balance of payments in check is the oil exports. When the oil stops there will have to be increased measures to stop capital from flowing out of the country.


Quite right, but why is that different to a 777 stuck in Hong Kong, Melbourne, Sydney, Auckland, Brisbane, Jo'burg or any other destination we operate to. In short it isn't. EK have been operating this way for years, willing to accept the risk. Statistics show that the gamble is paying off. When was the last time you heard of an aircraft being stuck down route because of crewing reasons?

I agree that basings would be an excellent addition to our package. But given the way our management thinks it would not surprise me to see them offered to DEC's rather than us.

I for one am not holding my breath.

dmf

dmf I am here in the wings awaiting a better DEC Package that includes an overseas basing!! However as someone has pointed out because EK salaries are tax free in Dubai the package would have to be in the currency where basing is and it would have to be increased hugely to allow for tax to be paid in country of abode. I am not therefore holding my breath as it would cost EK far more where as the Cathay and SQ overseas basings save them money by not paying education and accommodation allowances.

On busy rotes SQ always have a crew on standby but take a chance elsewhere that Flight Deck will not go sick at the last minute.

millers

you are exactly right. It is something I didn't mention previously.

I figure it would be about cost neutral for EK. By the time they increased the salary to cope with taxation, it would roughly take out the savings made from education and accomodation.

So back to my original argument, why would they forgo all the money that pilots spend in Dubai for no significant saving.

The only reason is if they can't attact pilots (DEC's that is, F/O's will always come) or someone else offers a basing package that attracts large numbers away from EK.

dmf

Don't believe that Cathay kindly adjusted salaries to account for
the difference in tax for overseas basings.
In fact quite the opposite, they reduced the actual pay difference
by about 30% and made no allowance for local taxes at all.
So, the actual take home pay became approx 50% of that for
HKG based people.
Emirates could do the same if they were to base pilots, trouble
is after reducing salary to home country rates and applying local
taxes- you would'nt have enough left to feed a baby camel.
The single biggest incentive for Cathay to base people was to extract pilots out of the provident fund.
Emirates would not benefit from guys leaving their fund to the
same extent.
Basings would have to be at lower pay rates, for DEC's or whoever, otherwise the pilot body in Dubai would revolt.

boofta

Some signigicant differences between Cathay and EK.

When Cathay introduced basings, everyone was on the A scale. That was back in the days when it was considered that you had to pay people a huge amount of money to live in HK. So they did. The trade off with basings was that you took a huge pay cut, but still earned a huge salary and got to live in your home country.

Many Cathay based people didn't have to pay tax in their country of domicile so in fact they laughing all the way to the bank.

EK on the other hand pay salaries that are well below industry standards and assume that we are all happy to accept them in order to live in "paradise". My salary converted to home country dollars is below that of a LoCo. If you then apply the tax factor, it is not an option. So EK would in fact have to increase basic salaries if they were to try and base people in countries with normal taxation rules. Some of my UK friends tell me that the after tax dollar at Easy or Ryanair is more than they are paid here!

BTW even after the turmoil at Cathay over the last decade, a Cathay F/O still earns more than an EK captain. And I would suggest that a Cathay Captain on a basing would still be earning significantly more, after tax, than and EK Captain in Dubai is earning.

So as you can see, it is not easy to compare the Cathay basings model to EK.


dmf

It would appear unlikely the EK management would consider such a proposal at present. However, there are a number of real issues in DXB, which unless resolved will stop potential flight crew applying.... I'm not saying they are having problems recruiting..
The long term situation may well change their opinion.. time will tell.. :ok:

have a look at this one!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/b...ction=aviation

:ok:

EK Overseas Basings.
 

I have heard recruitment in EK and other ME airlines has slowed to a trickle and a radical approach is now required...Bases in the US/CAN/UK/AUS/NZ on the radar.......Anyone have any info ?

I have heard similar. I believe they are going to offer basings to DEC's, as that is the most efficient way.

The reasoning is that if they were to offer current pilots basings, they would have to replace them with a new joiner anyway and that is where the difficulty is, so DEC basings makes the job more attractive to anyone qualified, and basically fills the company requirements.

V,mate,

Why not offer existing EK pilots basings if proposed?

Plenty waiting,would keep many currently looking elsewhere.

QB:cool:

Very strong labour laws in all these countries. Would EK really be interested in basing someone in a place that actually has some teeth. From what I've read and heard from friends that work there, not likely.

EK Discovering...
 

I guess that overseas basing were inevitable but it will create even more problems for EK and prove very divisive. In any case it will not solve the fundamental issues back in Dubai.

EK have already discovered that they are not as attractive as they thought they were and pilots are not applying or arriving in the numbers needed to sustain todays schedules let alone those planned for the future.

At a time when they need as many pilots as they can train, they are losing pilots both through the front and back doors and it doesn't look as if the spectre of DECs with overseas basings will solve the problem, only add significantly to them.

They continue to do anything BUT look at the issues of pay and conditions. 8% didn't cut it and throwing CVs in our faces and telling that we are 'given' accomodation and other 'perks', which are actually necessities, doesn't work either.

Pilots are not coming because the pay fails to compete in the long haul-widebody sector regardless of what any 'in house' remuneration survey would have us believe. Pilots are leaving because the pay/conditions at EK have deteriorated when those elsewhere have improved.

Unfortunately EK have chosen to follow the road of Gulf Air and the writing is on the wall.

I am in the process of finding an overseas basing for myself and like many others it is not with EK.

So who is going to fly with these overseas based DEC's would we have overseas based DEFO's. Now those two combined would p*ss off nearly every current EK pilot.

Keep discovering (new ways to aggravate your workforce)


EK stop dicking around and increase the pay and conditions.

I know it will hurt your ego but go on!!!!!!

brgds

CRS

PS Good article in 7 days from the Economist magazine. Standard Chartered bank estimate inflation in Dubai as 8% last year. So the last pay rise wasn't a pay rise

let them try it, it will be a welcome waterloo for some managers. many airlines have tried it before. again EK might consider asking some DEC's about these experiences, but that would be shaking holy grail.

For my 2 dirhams worth I just can't see it happening. What would happen if these pilots wanted to join a....dare I say the word.. union? And would their salary be increased by approx 40% to cover the tax they will have to pay,which, if so,would expose our pay as a reduced salary rather than a tax free salary. Would they have to e-mail a request to leave their country on days off......"ah,hello,i'm just driving over from England to Wales for the weekend,is that okay?" Private schooling,medical.......No.Too many problems I think.

But heh.....you just never Know!:hmm:

What if it was a seperate company,like SIA cargo,we do it right now with Atlas(more or less)
Have not heard anything wrt the 310Frt maybe that is the offline basings being reffered to

I guess O/S basings in EK might be an issue the management
would only consider if the situation in EK got desperate.

propangas,

it is desperate, believe me...

Surely by signing an agreement,not to form a "U****",and operating under a seperate name(SIA Cargo,Atlas,CX cargo etc),there would be advantages ?

Cost base lower?Standby coverage downroute?Reduced housing?

Pilots not leaving,to go home?

The company is already divided,irreversibly with DEC programme so just another split on a voluntary basis is hardly controversial now.The airline is big and impersonal now.

Is it not better to have your own pilots in the company,utilising their EK experience living where they want to live rather than leave to another carrier?What a loss of experience.

I think it is viable,(as CX,SIA etc have done so),but whether EK see the advantages remains highly debatable.QB