High Cirrus It has always been unwise to join ANY expat Airline IMHO other than as a Direct Entry Captain with the exception of Cathay and until recently Emirates.

Some people don't understand that once they join as an expat all the old rules go out of the window. You are on your own and upgrades have nothing to do with seniority, experience or how good/bad you are as a Pilot.

Any current Captain or high time F/O considering Emirates needs to think very carefully as to what he is letting himself in for. Years and Years possibly in the RHS!!!!! and getting poorer and poorer all the time.

This forum is very interesting with many of we 777 drivers in
Ba,and suddenly dear old blighty aint so bad after all.
Most airlines cannot compete aginst emirates commercially
especially when shake-yer-money owns the airline,the airport
,the atc,thecaa etc etc

Wake up gentlmen and face the reality!!!some of you are leaving in a FANTASY ISLAND. The aviation industry is fast heading towards the ruins!! Look around you, SQ,CX,and a number of european CO following the same path. The accountants are doing the sums,the rest of us just doing the driving.

Jabal...perhaps you should do a little more research. SQ/CX both VERY profitable...QF also, KA?-licence to print money.

Yeah a few US airlines suffering...more at the hands of their own govt security debacles than from the efforts of a handfull of Islamic Terrorists but there you go.

Even the average dimwitted Beancounter is/will be/ being dragged, innexorably, towards some of life's little inescapable facts.

1/. Insufficient pilots = aircraft parked instantly.

2/. Insufficient beancounters =....well, bliss really...certainly an instant + to the company bottom line....never been known to cause the instant immobilization of assets worth 100's of millions $ in capital costs and god knows what in cashflow!!

3/. SARS/**** (The War Against Terrorism) merely delayed the effects of MASSIVE retirements of baby boomers.

4/. Beancounters may have convinced themselves that modern aircraft don't need experienced crew but the reality is they do...still a few hull loses will fix that little mistake when pax vote with their feet.

5/. Experienced pilots are like any other commodity...they go to the hghest bidder!!

CX/KA have some of the highest paid pilots around and they are still highly profitable. Could it be that their (even more) highly paid beancounters are a little smarter than the average beany?

Chuck.

I am not trying to defend 411a, but admit is quite right, he is one of the few that didn't change is opinion in this forum....A lot of guys were blinded, they just got some sort of a reality check!

Lets accept other guys point of view, its part of the game....

Why so many unhappy pilots? Are they just a "lazy" bunch who want always want more? Did they suddenly wake up to have a huge moan?

The fact is this. Most would be happy if everything stayed just the way it was when they arrived. However relatively speaking things have got worse. Pay, conditions, prospects.... whatever. Hence the discontent.

The complaining is simply a human response to this. Bearing in mind this downward trend has been going on for some time, make any decision based on what conditions will become, not what they are now.

menard,

Everyone has a view and is entitled to express it.
It's the manner of delivery that I object to.

h-d:ok:

Helen-d

With all due respect, the way you delivered your message to 411a wasn't the most diplomatic!!! But its your opinion!!!

why why why???
 

do flight crew in the one of the best airlines in the world moan soooo much????I know sooo many drivers who have been here for years,they moaned then and in 5 years time they will still be moaning,but at the same time living in a big,fancy FREE villa just like mine and driving a big,gas guzling jeep,just like mine,and getting drunk most nights in town ,just like me.People this is the easy life here in Dubai and 99% of us LOVE it.EK is one of the best which is why soooo many want to be here and stay here.Worse than girls I tell you.Forgive my spelling but English is not my first language...............

moremilk for someone who's been registered for less than a month you've sure got a lot to say. I'd remind you that this forum is for the primary use of professional pilots to get the latest news, vent their spleen or do as they generally see fit. Aside from that we welcome all other professions within our industry to make comment or participate in the conversations. In fact there's even some forums dedicated to their use. But if you're going to jump on this pony and start insulting the folk who form the heart of this site then you will shortly find your access to this site limited or restricted. It's your call; do you want to continue to float around the bowl or do I pull the chain?

4HP

"One of the best airlines in the world" - well, not to work for. But the really sad part is that it could so easily be..... Moremilk, who did you work for before and how long have you been in Dubai?

I am sorry but with all do respect, I don't really understand. I have been reading this Forums for few months now. All I have been reading is how BAD EK or QR is, and how this is a 3rd world country. Will I have Question? If it is so bad than Why don't you guys just pack your bags and go back home where things are much better. are you trying to tell me that you really care about me and my career. All you care about is your own careers. you figure if less people apply than the company has to give you what you want. if I am wrong than correct me Please. Best of luck ..

P.S

For your information Cathey Pacific is looking for pilot.

Moremilk

I had a nice home (villa) back home, paid for....I had a nice 4X4 back home...I could buy all the boose I wanted, not on a limited licence, back home...

So those are not the reasons why I came to Dubai.... And I think a lot of guys wanting to join think the same....

Maybe you come from a place where you didn't get those sort of goods, but a lot of guys are not impressed by such things...

May be if you bring arguements of substance (not material) you will be more credible...

Enjoy the scary driving around Dubai with your fuel guzzler!!!

Out Of The Blue: Before uprooting the whole family, better let your pilot husband go solo to see if he can get comfortable.

It's not just about assimilating to a new job, it's about digesting an alien culture and about living in a sandbox with much higher summer temperatures than you are accustomed to in Ontario. :(

Out Of The Blue,

Seems to be no answer. Are you still there sweetheart or have you already left for Dubai. !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, Lounge Lizard we are still here. We have had a ton of Private Messages and just want to say thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond; it has been greatly appreciated.

Living in Dubai is not a concern, I am well aware of the crazy drivers, the hot summers and the bureaucracy (i.e. all the paper work you go through just to obtain a drivers license). This is not of real big concern, I definitely think that there is a lot of good things about living in Dubai. I think that part of it really comes down to a personal choice (depending on where you are coming from and what type of lifestyle you are looking for).

Our major concerns are:

Career progression, financial security & good working relations

1. First you have the DEC's and then the pilots on the accelerated course. Where does that leave guys who are just being hired as F/O's? With no sort of structure i.e. seniority list, the rules and policies can change at any time as they obviously already have. By the sounds of it being hired as a F/O with EK, you could be taking the chance that you may never see a left seat. EVER!

2. The salary was never an issue, we knew what EK was paying before we applied and that was fine. However in reading some of the posts (EK PAY) it once again leaves us with concern.

In 1992 an EK First Officer made 15500 AED
In 2004 an EK First Officer makes 16760 AED

From 1990 -2000 the General Retail Price Inflation was: 44.9%
From 1990-2002 it was 51.2% (2002 figure corrected to 1990 base)

Things in Dubai are becoming more and more expensive all the time. At the present time would be able to manage just fine on the salary, however down the road it could be a different story, if the cost of living continues to increase and the pay cheques don't. A lot to think about especially when you have a family to take care of.

3. The third issue is management, and I am only speaking for myself, as my husband is once again away flying.

If I owned a company and my management addressed the employees in the manner that apparently the EK management did last week I would FIRE their ASSES!! No matter what the situation is and whether or not the situation can be rectified, the way that management handled the meeting and spoke to the pilots in my mind is most detrimental thing that you could do to a company and morale of its people.

From the posts I have read and the fact that there has been 13,750 hits to this site in the past week I think this proves my point.

Career Progression, Financial Security & Good Working Realations..... At the end of the day is that not what we are all looking for?

EK has 1000 pilots today, needs 2100 in 2012.
today 550 captains, so lets say they need 1100 by 2012.
that means 550 upgrades in 8 years, then they will hire 150 DEC (thats what they said) so that makes 400 upgrades unless they hire more DEC.
EK has already 400 F/O's so if the last one is lucky, he will get his command 2012 (but I think they will take more DEC because its cheaper).

ps: dont forget all the local F/O's who will have the hours in the next few years, they will also be in front of the new joiners.

Here's another problem as I see it for Emirates:

Lots of new 777-300ERs coming form 1/2005, in fact one a month for the next few years.
Emirates needs Captains and FOs to fly these a/c.
Training Capts p*ssed off at pay and conditions so are resigning.
Hence need New Training Capts to train all the new FOs ( because as we are told there are always lots queuing up to join!!!).
Problem - if take Line Capts OFF to train as Training Capts there won't be enough Line Capts to fly the normal schedule. If they don't take them OFF there won't be enough FOs trained to fly the new a/c.

DECs - quite a few have failed so far and do I care, to be honest no, they shouldn't have needed to come here in the first place. There are so many guys here already who could do the job (all ex Captains with a lot of experience) but Management do not have the balls to tell the Sheik what the promotion criteria is doing to the Company. MORALE IS ROCK BOTTOM. I joined on accel command and the rules changed and I am now deemed not experienced enough for accel upgrade. I have to wait 3yrs yet I regularly fly with Capts who have less hours than me (both total and command hours).

Such a pity as it should/ could be a great place to be. Unfortunately I've started to look for other jobs as I have to have a back up plan because I just don't trust management when they say when I get to 3 yrs I'll have a command!!!!!

For SVP FO and also our EVO E&FO - take the blinkers off, listen to what is being said and try and do something. You may have 3000 people trying to join but you have to deal with the people here at the moment.

The company will use the resignation of many trainings captains as an excuse to hire more DEC.

Everything seems pretty much crystal clear to me, expect for why all of the Training Captains are leaving. I know that everyone seems to be ticked off right now, but it seems that the Training Captains are especially ticked and they are the ones in fact that are leaving. Could someone please give me some clarification on why that is. Thanks

O.O.T.B Its because they spend every waking hour in the simulator, their rosters are crap, they have no quality lifestyle and for all that they took a pay cut about a year ago. Yeah, I think that's about it..

O.O.T.B. Just to clarify - the Training Captains aren't actually leaving the company (at least not that I have heard of) but are "only" resigning from training, for the reasons outlined above. A somewhat unusual situation in any airline, especially a major international one.

I would say resigning Training Captains are a common problem for every expanding company. Even not expanding but also A/C changing Airlines tend to have that due bad management planning.
If management plan the "Big Picture" first, the trainers have to fit in to meet the schedule. If first (management outlined) priority is cost saving, they do that.
Forgetting that unhappy TC:s will indeed be very costly in longer term.

DD

Slight change of subject!!

Flight International (24/2 – 1/3)

Emirates president Tim Clark has a long term vision for the industry that could eliminate this time zone problem. He believes that the next generation of long range airliners, such as the proposed A380 could be equipped with the ultimate crew rest facilities, including showers, enabling pilots to operate the aircraft using a shift pattern similar to a ship’s roster.

“Crews could operate ultra-long haul flights to a 4h-on/4hoff pattern and when they get to the destination, they’d turn around and fly back without need to acclimatize to different time zones” he says.

And Clark has a simple solution to winning the pilots over to his plan: “The saving generated by not having to put crews up would be given back to them in their pay packet” he says.

Nice idea! From what I’ve read here, pilots in Emirates are not being dealt a fair deal, I hope it changes for the better. And before anybody asks, I don’t work for Emirates but have just turned down a DEC due to T & C’s and from what I heard from several friends already working for Emirates. If things were to improve, I would certainly re-apply but with quotes and empty promises from Clark like the above, it may be a ultra-long way away.

Good luck to you guys.

Neither do the A340-300 apparently.


............outbreaks of morale will not be tolerated

Rest?

Whatever for?

Have personally done many twelve hour sectors with one crew, no rest.

One wonders, when the whingers applied to the company, they asked for work, yes?
Or, were they expecting something else?:uhoh: :hmm:

411A(rsehole),

I certinly hope you're having a go at the general public posting here. 'cause if you're NOT, then for sure you have LOST YOUR MARBLES! What a CR@P statement (again).
:yuk:

To everyone else,

Every time I walk into EK briefing I see pilots with huge bags and black rings under their eyes, pale skin, lacking energy and motivation. That's what fatigue does to you.

But hey, we're a bunch of lazy guys, so all of the above could of course be from spending all that "free time" we have at Scarlet's!
:8 ;) :{

411 Good to see you back, how was re-hab?

I am sure you did many 12 hour sectors with no rest, but does that make it acceptable? Were you on top of your game for the final approach? Just because something was put up with in the old days doesn't make it safe.

Hey guys,

for sure the problems you guys are facing are very real and not to be dealt with lightly but if any of you want to change places with me PLSE PLSE send me a PM!!!!!(same A/C, same routes)

I ll come over right away!



;)

411,

Still talking the same old dross.....................


:hmm:

W2K

And there I was thinking that you had pale skin, bags under the eyes because of the hours spent drinking and shagging!! ;) ;)

You're not the only sector in EK suffering though which adds further to the worries. It seems to be pretty sterotypical of the rest of the group.

Will anyone have the balls to bring it up in front of GMD (or whatever he is now!) and HH in the financial review meeting in the Q&A session?

My, my, my...

We do seem to have a few here (maybe more that a few) who, having become so coddled in their companies now, when the company asks them to actually do a bit of longhaul flying work, they seem to have run out of starch.

Would expect that if the company offered overtime or other incentive pay for longhaul ops, the line at the Chief Pilots office would be fifty yards long wanting a piece of the action.

Oh boo hoo...:{ :{ :{

Been tried before Trimotor, with no success whatsoever.


Some pilots like nothing better than to complain.
If it isn't the pay, it's the working conditions, or crappy management...even the hosties aren't friendly.

Gee, what a surprise...it's a business, not a pleasure palace.
You gain experience, then apply to a larger carrier flying nice shiney new jet aircraft...and presto, some feel that they are now experts in airline management, rest requirements, and recruitment policy

Now, what EK needs to do is raise the pay slightly (or...more than slightly), and the complaints would disappear like frost off new mown grass.
Maybe throw a few upgrade logs on the fire as well.

What I suspect they will do is...keep the malcontents in the RH seat where they belong (until they learn how not to complain) and hire new experienced longhaul types, at higher pay to carry the load that the present guys are unsatisfied with.

'Tis called MiddleEast policy, and has been the same since God made little green apples.

And, it ain't gonna change anytime soon.

Just the way it IS.

New(er) guys learn slightly slower these days, it would appear.:ooh:

411A,"Have personally done many twelve hour sectors with one crew, no rest."
According to you, 411A, you also admitted to taking off in a 4-engined aircraft with 1 engine unable to deliver full thrust (whilst other "less brave" pilots than you refused!!), and in need of maintenance.

Aviation has never really recovered since you retired :rolleyes:

Ever stopped to ask yourself why no airline would employ you in the USA? Your country of citizenship.

"New(er) guys learn slightly slower these days, it would appear." - but they're a LOT smarter than you EVER were!! :p

Emirates is a take-the-money-and-run (albeit not a whole lot of money) place. The overall package is decent, but the retirement benefits are very poor. Do you really expect to be able to retire on a measly 12% of what they are actually paying? More importantly, do you really expect to stay long enough to reap the meager benefits of that retiremnet plan?
Emirates has an artificial market. People don´t naturally want to, or have to, travel to or through Dubai. The moment some delusional, self glorifying, religious fanatic decides to make the UAE a target, or somebody sets up another shiny, modern airline that provides equal or better service, the bubble at EK is going to burst. Duty free shopping or not.
However politically incorrect it is to say this: you will be working for arabs in an arab country, and their morals and ethics (personal and business) are nothing like yours. Their promises and contracts are worthless to a westerner.
Take a look at a map. See those three large countries surrounding the UAE? You know, the ones that have a history of violence, repression, war, revolution, torture and terrorism? Do you think they will leave tiny, wealthy, progressive (by arab standards) and western friendly Dubai & Co alone for the duration of your career? Are you willing to bet your family´s welfare on it?
If you´re young and single, if you want a couple of years worth of heavy time, if you´re out of a job or facing a furlough, by all means go for it and enjoy it while it lasts. If you have a fall back plan, if you´re already secure and just doing this for the fun of it, if you are able to leave again on a moments notice should the sh*t hit the fan, go for it.
But uprooting your family, quiting your present reasonably secure job (as a captain, no less!), and mortgaging your future on a job and a place like this is lunacy.

Very well put Bigmouth, 'tis very true, but I wonder, will anyone pay attention?

Nearly fell off my chair with laughter 18 months ago when those at EK came up with comments such as...job for life, only upgrade from within, fantastic management, lots of time off in 'paradise' Dubai.....on and on.

Those from the western world go to the middle east for generally two reasons...
advancement in career,
money.

Well guess what, the money ain't what it used to be, and 'advancement' is keeping your backside in whatever seat the company says you will, like it or not.

The pay scale for the middle east started to generally run downhill in the early nineties, because the locals just knew that some 'johney come lately' pilot would take the bait, buy into the idea, sell his house, quit his job...and move right in. Just dangle a shiney widebody jet in front of his nose, with visions of the left seat painted on for good measure...presto, instant Captains.

Well now the other shoe has dropped, and the guys now find the picture not quite as pretty.

Oddly enough, when EK was organized in the mid-eighties, about 60 guys from JED went for interviews, and all but one or two came back laughing their sox off.

Comments such as...'the devil you know is much better than the devil you don't', was the general consensus...and, 'the money is not up to par.'

True then...and now.

Gosh Kaptin M, your comments are so vague, you couldn't even get the number of engines right, never mind anything else.:p

411A You are quite correct in your assessment of Airline jobs in the Gulf/Middle East regettably. The T &C's are now so bad that those from the Western world should perhaps give it a miss unless for reasons quoted by Bigmouth.

White Knight I am all for people disagreeing with what others post but there is no need to resort to foul mouthed language as it demeans anything you have to say. By all means be sarcastic.ridicule, make fun of etc etc but keep your gutter language for any of your like minded "yobbo" friends:ugh:

411a,

In this business, there are some pilots that do respect their profession, they stand for a safe flying environment for the flying public.... There is another bunch of leftovers from the industry, that will never help this world to move forward... I defended you in some forums....Maybe I made a mistake.....

The amount of respect a person gets from others is only as high as this person's self estime.....

You seem to think poorly of yourself.....figure out the rest.....

MC old chum - I think the only thing that gets through to a wind up merchant like 411 is to be completely blunt. Regretable but I'm sure it gave my "yobbo" colleagues a good laugh.....

Bigmouth - I only see more and more tourists arriving, the place is heaving at the moment. From a personal point of view I love living in Dubai and the UAE, there's always so much to do.

Have to agree with comments about Dubai..........enjoying the place and all the options.

I can only imagine operating with a dinasour like 411, bitter old man with regrets probably responsible for the CRM courses that exist today. Thanks 411............

I would rather not insult but I think this is rightly deserved.

Things in the USA are far worse..............thousands still on furlough.

There is no perfect airline job.

Trying to make the best of it.

Seems some still do not yet get the picture, millerscourt, still drawn in the big vacuum full of promises, such as EK.

And, they make it so easy for the EK management to step all over 'em...and this will continue i'm sure.

With the juvenile thinking/comments going on with the EK guys, one wonders...do they deserve to be Commanders?:ooh: