Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

EK207 Jfk

Old 9th Jan 2018, 13:55
  #441 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
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...and having to change every manual to PF/PísM 🤔

Im sure Boeing would have obliged with their next revision of FCTM
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Old 9th Jan 2018, 19:55
  #442 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MacSheikh View Post
Latest rumour is the augmenting CA is reinstated.
Saves the company a bucketful of money from being taken to court!
Not a rumour but truth! Won the appeal.
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Old 10th Jan 2018, 21:16
  #443 (permalink)  
QAR
 
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JFK is a bloody 3 rd world shitty American airport a disaster waiting to happen!
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Old 10th Jan 2018, 21:29
  #444 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by QAR View Post
JFK is a bloody 3 rd world shitty American airport a disaster waiting to happen!
The airport has nothing to do with this, learn how to fly first then talk !
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Old 10th Jan 2018, 22:17
  #445 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by QAR View Post
JFK is a bloody 3 rd world shitty American airport a disaster waiting to happen!
There are many airports similar to the difficulties of JFK in developed countries.

Right on the other side of Manhattan across the Hudson is a very easy approach at Newark. Yet some airlines choose not to go there. If JFK is deemed dangerous why doesnít the airline just fly into Newark instead. If they choose to fly to JFK they should prepare their pilots properly.

The pilots of most airlines donít find JFK a big issue as they have the confidence to do what is necessary within the bounds of the safety margins without worrying about getting fired for minor issues. Unless youíve been a skipper of a certain operator discussed on these forums you canít appreciate how fear of punishment affects decision making, no matter how experienced or thick-skinned the pilot is.
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Old 11th Jan 2018, 22:51
  #446 (permalink)  
QAR
 
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Originally Posted by Jack330 View Post
The airport has nothing to do with this, learn how to fly first then talk !
I have flown enough to talk..JFK IS A 3 world airport with 3rd world ATC
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 00:59
  #447 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
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Pan Am, BOAC, TWA and numerous other airlines have flown into JFK for decades with no difficulties so why do you?
If it scares you or the approaches are too challenging for you please stay away. When you post non sense of this board it shows what a lousy pilot you are.
JFK (Idlewild) has been around for close to 80 years and it hasn't had the "Disaster" you are forecasting. If you do as I suggest and stay away it will continue to have a stellar record as long as professional pilots fly there.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 01:10
  #448 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
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Originally Posted by Neptune Spear View Post
Pan Am, BOAC, TWA and numerous other airlines have flown into JFK for decades with no difficulties so why do you?
If it scares you or the approaches are too challenging for you please stay away. When you post non sense of this board it shows what a lousy pilot you are.
JFK (Idlewild) has been around for close to 80 years and it hasn't had the "Disaster" you are forecasting. If you do as I suggest and stay away it will continue to have a stellar record as long as professional pilots fly there.
Spot On Neptune
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 04:50
  #449 (permalink)  
 
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Comparing with the past is not appropriate. The aircraft were smaller with less energy (most still are). The crews were not as tired-had not crossed as many time zones. The crews probably flew into the same airports regularly rather than once every 2-3 years. The sky was not as congested let alone the terminal area. In many cases English was a mother tongue. ATC and Pilots treated EACH OTHER with respect. All of that has changed. Ask yourself -what size aircraft was the airfield designed to take'. How many movements was a realistic number for ATC and the infrastructure? When was the last time money was spent upgrading the airport/ATC/infrastructure? Consider US TERPS-there is no possibility that a Cat D/E aircraft can comply with what the TERPs by definition allow. This does not excuse not flying a 3 x approach but Blind Freddy can see the cheese holes aligning. FWIW having flown into every continent in my opinion all US Gateway Airport facilities that I have experienced are at a Third World level however so are those of my own country for the same reason-no infrastructure spend as it takes longer than an election cycle so there are no votes in it!!!
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 05:27
  #450 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Originally Posted by QAR View Post
I have flown enough to talk..JFK IS A 3 world airport with 3rd world ATC
I call BS on that.

I've been operating into JFK in various aircraft from jurassic jets to the marvels of the A380. Either you can fly or you can't.

If you fly the FAA approved approaches, flight paths and minima specified on the approach plate then you'll never any problems. If you try to "re-invent" the wheel by trying to let the automation do all the work with charts made by nervous neophyte office types then you WILL run into problems.

Remember folks, this is an approach that sets you up on a right base to turn final, if you can't do that then please make the sky safer and turn in your license.

New York and Boston ATC (and USA ATC as whole ) is, in my opinion the best anywhere, including Australia and England. They are a breeze to deal with during severe weather (SWAP) and are more accommodating than other "first world" countries and yes, they expect you to understand basic English.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 05:49
  #451 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Outlaw View Post
If you fly the FAA approved approaches, flight paths and minima specified on the approach plate then you'll never any problems. If you try to "re-invent" the wheel by trying to let the automation do all the work with charts made by nervous neophyte office types then you WILL run into problems.
This is a silly statement. Why? Because no approach published anywhere in the world purposely flies you into the ground, if ANY published procedure is flown to the letter, the aircraft will be fine. Meaningless words from you.

Providing additional lateral & vertical guidance to crew for a visual phase (when used appropriately, for monitoring purposes) can only aid safety. For example, is using the internal FMS FIX page 'dangerous' as a monitor of lateral tracking during an EOP? Both manufacturers recommend using this in several factory-issued flight references.

Suggest you explore recent JFK approaches from other airlines where pilots were flying the FAA 'PURE' Canarsie 'VOR or GPS' chart and ended up approaching 13R instead of 13L & vice-versa. Or had other lateral/vertical issues. There's quite a few.

Fact is, there are peculiarities with an A380 FMS/MMR design flaw that make it unable to fly curved paths in Approach mode. Unlike most 777/767/737/747 A320/A330/A340/A350, this means it can't fly the RNP-AR (Precision) approaches for 13L/R.

This very unfortunate manufacturer design flaw is the root cause of recent A380 issues on 13L/R at JFK, forcing less-safe VOR (Non-Precision, zero guidance after missed-approach point) approaches & greater reliance on pilot monitoring/ 'meat-servo' adjustment of vertical path. All of which means less consistent flight paths if humans at controls fail (for whatever reason, fatigue, lack of familiarity, other) to monitor & act accordingly.

For this aircraft, the only defence for crew (other than ATC monitoring) is for PF to use visual references at the right time, and for PM to back up properly, with internal aids + comparing outside view.

Last edited by 777-Up; 12th Jan 2018 at 06:57.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 05:55
  #452 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
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I used to do up to 3 rotations a day into JFK. Non event. Iíve had more wake turbulence encounters in 2 months in dubai than in 2 years at JFK. The airport is designed for slower aircraft? Uhhhh, try a 707. Raw data...Corporate culture and overreaching SOPís cause this one. Thankfully thereís not a smoking hole.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 07:18
  #453 (permalink)  
 
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"New York and Boston ATC (and USA ATC as whole ) is, in my opinion the best anywhere, including Australia and England. They are a breeze to deal with during severe weather (SWAP) and are more accommodating than other "first world" countries and yes, they expect you to understand basic English"

Really? That's a joke right?
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 07:44
  #454 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 777-Up View Post
This is a silly statement. Why? Because no approach published anywhere in the world purposely flies you into the ground, if ANY published procedure is flown to the letter, the aircraft will be fine. Meaningless words from you.

Providing additional lateral & vertical guidance to crew for a visual phase (when used appropriately, for monitoring purposes) can only aid safety. For example, is using the internal FMS FIX page 'dangerous' as a monitor of lateral tracking during an EOP? Both manufacturers recommend using this in several factory-issued flight references.

Suggest you explore recent JFK approaches from other airlines where pilots were flying the FAA 'PURE' Canarsie 'VOR or GPS' chart and ended up approaching 13R instead of 13L & vice-versa. Or had other lateral/vertical issues. There's quite a few.

Fact is, there are peculiarities with an A380 FMS/MMR design flaw that make it unable to fly curved paths in Approach mode. Unlike most 777/767/737/747 A320/A330/A340/A350, this means it can't fly the RNP-AR (Precision) approaches for 13L/R.

This very unfortunate manufacturer design flaw is the root cause of recent A380 issues on 13L/R at JFK, forcing less-safe VOR (Non-Precision, zero guidance after missed-approach point) approaches & greater reliance on pilot monitoring/ 'meat-servo' adjustment of vertical path. All of which means less consistent flight paths if humans at controls fail (for whatever reason, fatigue, lack of familiarity, other) to monitor & act accordingly.

For this aircraft, the only defence for crew (other than ATC monitoring) is for PF to use visual references at the right time, and for PM to back up properly, with internal aids + comparing outside view.
What the hell are you talking about !!
Fatigue ? Lack of familiarity ? Stay home then or change job please...
We are talking about flying airplanes here, internal aids are there just to aid, at some point you must look outside and FLY onto the runway..
The 380 is also much easier to handle than a 707 as stated before, all I see is lack of skills and basic airmanship.
The emirates events are very dangerous, itís scary that they even happened in super good weather, imagine otherwise.
And I agree on the JFK Atc, theyíre much better than others, especially in very bad weather, in Dubai a few years ago they made a circus because of a thunderstorm so please.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 07:56
  #455 (permalink)  
 
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Jack330; if you're unable to believe fatigue & unfamiliar airports are a factor for almost every professional pilot, many would find it hard to believe you've ever worked in an international airline.

Try 'staying at home' as you suggest, and a career won't last very long. Give it a try... or perhaps you're already long-retired.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 08:15
  #456 (permalink)  
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Of course fatigue and non familiarity play a role, all Iím saying is that blaming atc and finding excuses itís just not right...
Events like the ones that happened in ek so close to each other require immediate attention! Itís just not right and what about the 777 crash, was it fatigue ( after a 3 hrs flight ) or the crew was not familiar with their own base ??
Iím way to young to stay home my friend and I certainly donít need your opinion on my professional curriculum, especially when I see what you write, we might even work for the same airline to be honest.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 08:23
  #457 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
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super pilots

I just don't get it.

so, ek207... They [email protected]$#d up. yes. They did, indeed.

fatigue, unfamiliarity, confusing training, company policies, confusing inboard "aids", horrific management "styles", unfriendly ATC are all contributing factors to taking a crew otherwise well prepared a little step further towards disaster.

I believe we agree on these statements.

what I fail to understand is the total lack of respect in both directions.
"NYC ATC the worst in the world!"
"JFK a third world airport"
"if you can't fly an airplane stay home!"
"I flew it upside down and I'm fine.. you are useless pilots"

seriously?
JFK ATC is probably very friendly to americans.
not so much to non-native English speakers.
They lack basic patience.
had no issues myself, but I've seen people getting really a hard time by them, strong Newyork accent.... slang... speaking at unacceptable rate.

207, was it related to this? Probably not at all.
and I say probably because I wasn't there. But I struggle to imagine a reason why ATC would be a concern while well into an approach procedure.
They actually tried to help, and maybe saved the day on that occasion if the pilots started the go around because of their alert.

but saying that ATC in NYC is the best or that it doesn't have flaws... that's a different story altogether.

They are one of the busiest gateways to the USA and yet they don't want to adapt to the fact that hundreds of pilots from everywhere in the world operate there.
And aviation English level 4 doesn't mean I know or understand NYC slang.
nor that I understand you when you're talking to me and I'm still decelerating on the runway after touch down.
nor that I'm able to plan for your 46 different approaches all in use at the same time for three or four different runways and change it several times.
nor that it makes any sense to me that you yell in the radio that I have to tell you my parking stand after landing. me? really? that's unique.
There would be many other "nor"s but I think these are enough for making my point.
again, none of them is ek207 related.

but guys, a little respect for each other, please!
This really is the single most important bit that would make me think this is truly a "ProfessionalPilots"RuNe.
otherwise just make another forum and call it RuNe.

my 20 fils

KL

Last edited by KippaLippa; 12th Jan 2018 at 08:33. Reason: corrections
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 08:26
  #458 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Jack330: If you've got the solutions, as you say, and are at the same company I look forward to receiving your excellent instruction & insights at a future recurrent sim.

If you're actually on the A380, which seems doubtful as you don't appear to understand the FMS and associated weakness of FLS (yes, FLS), then I hope not to come across you, Sir.
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 08:34
  #459 (permalink)  
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777 relax, those are just different points of view on a rumor forum, donít take it so personal..
For personal issues you can pm me anytime and donít worry, Iím a boeing guy but as you can see from the nick I flew airbus as well....
Whenever you need some advice pm me and Iíll be happy to help you out if you have any tech doubt and the fms has nothing to do on the visual part of an approach where you have to look out !
😉
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Old 12th Jan 2018, 14:23
  #460 (permalink)  
 
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A lot of technical stuff spouted here!
Simple really, it appears that after being positioned automatically on right base for the runway, many EK crews are then incapable of completing a simple manual visual approach and landing.

PS Many JFK 13L/R VOR visuals, successfully attempted and safely completed in various types up to B744. Not considered especially demanding in my airline.
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