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Response to EK Training a disgrace

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Response to EK Training a disgrace

Old 11th Oct 2017, 15:37
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 24.7098N 46.7252E
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Originally Posted by CaptainOldSchool View Post
Here is the thing....
I would be sure that you can go to the manager of training and ask him or here what should change.
I guess you haven't heard, might not be something that could be done right now!
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 19:22
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Straya
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...it's a crying shame that we have to be exposed to such meandering, pointless and weak drivel...
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 19:32
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Acryingshame:
excellent post, you nailed the problem 100%
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 20:32
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Originally Posted by Talparc View Post
Acryingshame:
excellent post, you nailed the problem 100%
Face it, it's time to call for MM to resign, or he gets fired after the next bit of bent metal.
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 20:36
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
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guts:
obviously MM is already on his way out
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 21:30
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Talparc View Post
guts:
obviously MM is already on his way out
I believe he tried but was hampered from above.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 18:34
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Posts: 103
Why has WC A380 training manager now gone?
Is it related to the Moscow incident?
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 21:13
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
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If that was the case it would be someone from Fleet right? Oh wait there....
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 21:15
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
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To my believe WC had lots of issues going on already back in 2014.
Looks like someone had enough of his continued failures.
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Old 14th Oct 2017, 05:46
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: United Arab Emirates
Age: 45
Posts: 116
Talparc:

Who is NC? Canít figure out, and what WC has done back in 2014? Canít remember anything serious.
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Old 14th Oct 2017, 07:50
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Austria
Posts: 351
WC: manipulation of PPC check forms in order to activate a warning letter procedure,
he was knowingly involved in misconduct of line checks.
NC is like Neil Armstrong carrying a Case.
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Old 14th Oct 2017, 12:56
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Seaman:
you very well summarised the problem. It will get very difficult to push the training again in the right direction.
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Old 14th Oct 2017, 20:33
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sandy Beach
Posts: 23
There seems to be some confusion regarding the fundamentals of the EBT concept here.

EBT does not aim to expose the pilots to all possible (low probability) events. It's all about developing competencies and hence resilience, i.e. the capability to return back to a safe state even in unforeseen situations.

Sure enough, certain evidence based events, high threat aerodromes etc. usually find their way to the training program (the higher probability threats).

I would like to believe and assert that so do the points of unsuccessful examinations as well if the evidence starts to build up pointing at weaknesses at system level.

The rare unsuccessful evaluations most often do get re-evaluated and passed already during the 2 day PPCs and generally this (always unpleasant) assessment just means that a weakness in competencies has been identified and some training needs to be provided followed by a usually successful re-evaluation.

Knowledge, by the way, is only one of the nine competencies in our assessment scheme (every now and then the end station in root cause analysis, though).

10 plus years with this Training Department for me and I must say I've never felt that I would not have had the necessary support and maneuver space to provide professional and ethically acceptable training, education and evaluation. Have witnessed a number of Trainers to be returned to line flying after not living up to the ethos during this time.

It is saddening to sense the almost despair amongst some contributors here. Only adds to the challenge in trying to stay on the edge as a professional, at all levels for myself and I'm sure most of my colleagues.
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 08:01
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 70
I have worked for 4 airlines and, without doubt, the weakest training I had was in Emirates. I'm sure the advocates for the training department are all very satisfied that, on paper, they are generating all the right paperwork, ticking the right boxes and allocating grades. The problem is that there is that the overall culture in the airline is not conducive to honestly and openly admitting to less than perfection. Therefore training events tend to be over-scripted performances during which the candidate is so wary of making a mistake there is very little capacity left to learn.

At the risk of appearing 'hysterical', allow me to provide an example of an Emirates event. I arrived at the sim centre to meet my co-candaidate in an agitated state. Apparently, our rostered instructor had been replaced by another individual who duly appeared. He was unkempt with his tie half done up and told us he was very tired as he had 'been banging a hooker all night and she wouldn't let him get any sleep'. He then spent the brief trying to belittle both of us and wasted 15 minutes looking up an obscure and ambiguous reference in a document to prove me wrong.

The sim detail continued in the same vein and was of no benefit to me. The 'instructor' told me I had probably failed that session but he would make up his mind the next day after the second detail. My co-candidate said not to worry and that he was always like that. The second session came and went in similar chaotic fashion and, lo and behold, I had passed (probably because he couldn't be bothered with the paperwork for a fail). The whole thing was a joke - I believe the instructor concerned is notorious but could not be removed from training due to his extensive wasta.

While I accept that few Emirates instructors are quite as bad as that, that was not the only instance of a completely unconstructive approach that I experienced. The best training I had was when the type rating was out-sourced to BA in London with BA instructors.

So big yourself and department up, pixy, and feel satisfied. I didn't make this story up and I hope it will always be the worst training event I ever experience.
While the fear culture and perception of checking before training persist, Emirates training, like the airline and the country, will continue to be a shiny shell covering a pile of sh1t.
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 11:39
  #35 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by adolf hucker View Post
I have worked for 4 airlines and, without doubt, the weakest training I had was in Emirates. I'm sure the advocates for the training department are all very satisfied that, on paper, they are generating all the right paperwork, ticking the right boxes and allocating grades. The problem is that there is that the overall culture in the airline is not conducive to honestly and openly admitting to less than perfection. Therefore training events tend to be over-scripted performances during which the candidate is so wary of making a mistake there is very little capacity left to learn.

At the risk of appearing 'hysterical', allow me to provide an example of an Emirates event. I arrived at the sim centre to meet my co-candaidate in an agitated state. Apparently, our rostered instructor had been replaced by another individual who duly appeared. He was unkempt with his tie half done up and told us he was very tired as he had 'been banging a hooker all night and she wouldn't let him get any sleep'. He then spent the brief trying to belittle both of us and wasted 15 minutes looking up an obscure and ambiguous reference in a document to prove me wrong.

The sim detail continued in the same vein and was of no benefit to me. The 'instructor' told me I had probably failed that session but he would make up his mind the next day after the second detail. My co-candidate said not to worry and that he was always like that. The second session came and went in similar chaotic fashion and, lo and behold, I had passed (probably because he couldn't be bothered with the paperwork for a fail). The whole thing was a joke - I believe the instructor concerned is notorious but could not be removed from training due to his extensive wasta.

While I accept that few Emirates instructors are quite as bad as that, that was not the only instance of a completely unconstructive approach that I experienced. The best training I had was when the type rating was out-sourced to BA in London with BA instructors.

So big yourself and department up, pixy, and feel satisfied. I didn't make this story up and I hope it will always be the worst training event I ever experience.
While the fear culture and perception of checking before training persist, Emirates training, like the airline and the country, will continue to be a shiny shell covering a pile of sh1t.
Am I allowed to guess who this individual was>
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 12:11
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
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adolf hucker

I don't think for one minute pixy was blowing his own trumpet, far from it. He was merely highlighting the hard work that he and many others in training put in day after day, night after night to make the experience an acceptable one for all of us that go through the system, a system I might add that generally does a good job overall. It has improved considerably from what it was 10 years ago, both in culture and content.

As for the individual you mention, we know all too well who that is. I had a similar experience during initial training and it wasn't pleasant. He's mellowed over time but truthfully, most airlines wouldn't let him in the right seat, let alone the position he holds as a Captain within training management.

Harry
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 13:35
  #37 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
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Originally Posted by harry the cod View Post
adolf hucker

I don't think for one minute pixy was blowing his own trumpet, far from it. He was merely highlighting the hard work that he and many others in training put in day after day, night after night to make the experience an acceptable one for all of us that go through the system, a system I might add that generally does a good job overall. It has improved considerably from what it was 10 years ago, both in culture and content.

As for the individual you mention, we know all too well who that is. I had a similar experience during initial training and it wasn't pleasant. He's mellowed over time but truthfully, most airlines wouldn't let him in the right seat, let alone the position he holds as a Captain within training management.

Harry
So Harry...here is the elephant in your room. You tell all those on this board that the EK Training Department does a great job......but happily admit that a certain individual who holds a senior position in that department would not be allowed in the RHS at most airlines.

(IMHO...he should not be allowed within 1000 meters of an aircraft at any time..let alone have a senior role in training due to wasta.)

So I have to ask...where is the credibility mate? Everyone knows that a nutcase is in charge of the asylum...but due to Wasta he gets away with it...and you post messages saying how great the training department is...but close to its head is a toxic piece of s...

I'm starting to think Stockholm Syndrome.....
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 14:13
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Dubai
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Originally Posted by adolf hucker View Post
I have worked for 4 airlines and, without doubt, the weakest training I had was in Emirates. I'm sure the advocates for the training department are all very satisfied that, on paper, they are generating all the right paperwork, ticking the right boxes and allocating grades. The problem is that there is that the overall culture in the airline is not conducive to honestly and openly admitting to less than perfection. Therefore training events tend to be over-scripted performances during which the candidate is so wary of making a mistake there is very little capacity left to learn.

At the risk of appearing 'hysterical', allow me to provide an example of an Emirates event. I arrived at the sim centre to meet my co-candidate in an agitated state. Apparently, our rostered instructor had been replaced by another individual who duly appeared. He was unkempt with his tie half done up and told us he was very tired as he had 'been banging a hooker all night and she wouldn't let him get any sleep'. He then spent the brief trying to belittle both of us and wasted 15 minutes looking up an obscure and ambiguous reference in a document to prove me wrong.

The sim detail continued in the same vein and was of no benefit to me. The 'instructor' told me I had probably failed that session but he would make up his mind the next day after the second detail. My co-candidate said not to worry and that he was always like that. The second session came and went in similar chaotic fashion and, lo and behold, I had passed (probably because he couldn't be bothered with the paperwork for a fail). The whole thing was a joke - I believe the instructor concerned is notorious but could not be removed from training due to his extensive wasta.

While I accept that few Emirates instructors are quite as bad as that, that was not the only instance of a completely unconstructive approach that I experienced. The best training I had was when the type rating was out-sourced to BA in London with BA instructors.

So big yourself and department up, pixy, and feel satisfied. I didn't make this story up and I hope it will always be the worst training event I ever experience.
While the fear culture and perception of checking before training persist, Emirates training, like the airline and the country, will continue to be a shiny shell covering a pile of sh1t.
BA training was also not up to scratch according to some of our guys , so who is better and who is [email protected]?
There is one or two complete clowns 🤡 in the dept , but they are the minority , most guys are trying their best and the multiple day1 /2 in the middle of the night takes its toll, the clapped out red eyes is testament to it, to say EK have the sh1test dept you've ever experienced you must be coming from some flash outfit and i bet you where moaning there to,
Unfortunately one or two individuals always spoil it for all and you cannot stereotype the rest of the guys who do a [email protected] load of work and gets assessed far more than the line guys ( I guarantee you that) ask the average TRE or TRi the amount or TPO AOC as well as own recurrent per year , it's never ending to ensure proper material and effective training tools get delivered, pick up a shovel mate and come and make a difference, I dare you
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 17:10
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 9
The Writing is on the Wall.

EK is like any other airline except in one specific area. All airlines have incidents but when a mature carrier has a safety incident the main aim is to learn from it and prevent recurrence. Many at EK have the same aim but the company culture driven from on high does not support them; it wants blood. On the walls of the lifts the penalty free reporting system is written but it is far distant from reality. Depending on who was flying when the incident occurred, it is dealt with differently. Recent incidents on the whale have me fearing for the crews but apparently on the trip a similar significant incident resulted in a couple of days off the roster. These career defining decisions are taken based on the nationality of the crew involved and the publicity received rather than the actual incident involved. Over the summer DSVP-FO and SVP-F left within a week of each other without being replaced. Normally under those circumstances the Chief Pilot would be next in the 'firing line' for line incidents but not at EK, he is protected by his nationality so instead they find an expat to fire. I wonder if the training manager that lost his job was only really guilty of a lack of top cover.

The company culture has a bully at the helm who bullies his subordinate and then that subordinate accepts the actions of, not a bully, but an individual with sociopathic tendencies. (Sociopath definition: a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience) The individual has already been shipped off to Doha to duck responsibility for 'allegedly' sexually harassing a female pilot. I have been unlucky enough to be checked by him, he is a disgrace. There seems to have been attempts to correct his behaviour by management but in the end any ex-pat to have challenged him has been removed from their job. The parallels with what is going on with Harvey Weinstein are instructive. Everyone turning a blind eye to open abuse by a person with power over other individuals.

Every few years, EK has a purge of the training department. Normally it is as a result of interference from outside. Last time all the managers were fired because a friend of the bully said they had been mean to him. This time it seems it is because they can't blame anyone in Fleet because they have all left. You have to give the old DSVP and SVP props for seeing the signs. When I joined I was told it would take 20 years before EK turned into GF. I left after 14 so I am not sure what I was told was very far off the mark. The solution is simple: change the culture, remove the bullies, fire the sociopaths and above all walk the walk. Do what you say and know you should do; its all written on the walls.
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 05:40
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uae
Posts: 2,365
It's their train set and let them derail it! Or it already has . Expats in management beware!
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