HD throws in the towl
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 140
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From: Houston
I suppose someone in my position has to hope that enough others leave, so that it force management to improve the terms for those that must stay. If I were to go home from now the bottom line is my "lifetime earnings" and therefore retirement savings would be a fraction of what it would be if I simply suck it up and stay. It might be momentarily satisfying to throw in the towel and slam the door behind myself, but that momentary satisfaction would soon be replaced by the hard reality that financially and from a professional satisfaction point of view, the place I'm at right now is simply the best it will get for someone in my position.
I'd guess there are many others here in the same position, and I think that this conclusion is bourne out by the fact that the oft cited exodus of pilots - if indeed there really is one - has not yet resulted in either cancelled flights, parked airplanes, nor any improvement in renumeration.
Unfortunately, should I elect to go home now, I'd be at the bottom of a very large seniority list, starting over at Year Zero pay, minimal leave, a huge tax bill, and topped off with a 15 year upgrade in one of the "good" bases, or perhaps 5-10 years upgrade in one of the most expensive, and therefore undesirable bases in the country and perhaps the world.
Add to that the fact that at any of my home airlines, there are literally thousands of pilots who are both SENIOR to me, and YOUNGER than me, and my chances of advancing beyond F.O. at home, and simultaneously holding a good base or equipment become vanishingly small.
The other choices, of moving to Chinese airlines that folks on here constantly gush about, is a non-starter for me, as I'd rather open an Ice Cream truck than live in China, or commute to there. And if any of you think that our Management here take advantage of contractual loopholes, just wait til you see the shenanigans the Chinese management have in store for you, and good luck with the never ending frustration of dealing with their beaurocratic culture!
So for those reasons above, the best we can do is try to make this place the best it can be by whatever means, in order to create a positive working environment for ourselves, and to have a happy outcome at retirement time.
So I, as I suspect many of us are, do hope that many pilots here can find their "greener pastures" -and soon- so that the true shortage of pilots arises here and the contract here gets increased.
Perhaps I should open up a CV writing service and interview preparation consultancy to help this process along, and also make a little extra on the side?
Last edited by aeropix; 26th May 2017 at 15:16.
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 142
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From: AOG
I hear this a lot, and as for me I am a product of the way seniority works in my home country, and therefore am a lifer at EK, and so along with many others must keep hope alive that it will get better, or at least not degrade to unsustainable levels.
I suppose someone in my position has to hope that enough others leave, so that it force management to improve the terms for those that must stay. If I were to go home from now the bottom line is my "lifetime earnings" and therefore retirement savings would be a fraction of what it would be if I simply suck it up and stay. It might be momentarily satisfying to throw in the towel and slam the door behind myself, but that momentary satisfaction would soon be replaced by the hard reality that financially and from a professional satisfaction point of view, the place I'm at right now is simply the best it will get for someone in my position.
I'd guess there are many others here in the same position, and I think that this conclusion is bourne out by the fact that the oft cited exodus of pilots - if indeed there really is one - has not yet resulted in either cancelled flights, parked airplanes, nor any improvement in renumeration.
Unfortunately, should I elect to go home now, I'd be at the bottom of a very large seniority list, starting over at Year Zero pay, minimal leave, a huge tax bill, and topped off with a 15 year upgrade in one of the "good" bases, or perhaps 5-10 years upgrade in one of the most expensive, and therefore undesirable bases in the country and perhaps the world.
Add to that the fact that at any of my home airlines, there are literally thousands of pilots who are both SENIOR to me, and YOUNGER than me, and my chances of advancing beyond F.O. at home, and simultaneously holding a good base or equipment become vanishingly small.
The other choices, of moving to Chinese airlines that folks on here constantly gush about, is a non-starter for me, as I'd rather open an Ice Cream truck than live in China, or commute to there. And if any of you think that our Management here take advantage of contractual loopholes, just wait til you see the shenanigans the Chinese management have in store for you, and good luck with the never ending frustration of dealing with their beaurocratic culture!
So for those reasons above, the best we can do is try to make this place the best it can be by whatever means, in order to create a positive working environment for ourselves, and to have a happy outcome at retirement time.
So I, as I suspect many of us are, do hope that many pilots here can find their "greener pastures" -and soon- so that the true shortage of pilots arises here and the contract here gets increased.
Perhaps I should open up a CV writing service and interview preparation consultancy to help this process along, and also make a little extra on the side?
I suppose someone in my position has to hope that enough others leave, so that it force management to improve the terms for those that must stay. If I were to go home from now the bottom line is my "lifetime earnings" and therefore retirement savings would be a fraction of what it would be if I simply suck it up and stay. It might be momentarily satisfying to throw in the towel and slam the door behind myself, but that momentary satisfaction would soon be replaced by the hard reality that financially and from a professional satisfaction point of view, the place I'm at right now is simply the best it will get for someone in my position.
I'd guess there are many others here in the same position, and I think that this conclusion is bourne out by the fact that the oft cited exodus of pilots - if indeed there really is one - has not yet resulted in either cancelled flights, parked airplanes, nor any improvement in renumeration.
Unfortunately, should I elect to go home now, I'd be at the bottom of a very large seniority list, starting over at Year Zero pay, minimal leave, a huge tax bill, and topped off with a 15 year upgrade in one of the "good" bases, or perhaps 5-10 years upgrade in one of the most expensive, and therefore undesirable bases in the country and perhaps the world.
Add to that the fact that at any of my home airlines, there are literally thousands of pilots who are both SENIOR to me, and YOUNGER than me, and my chances of advancing beyond F.O. at home, and simultaneously holding a good base or equipment become vanishingly small.
The other choices, of moving to Chinese airlines that folks on here constantly gush about, is a non-starter for me, as I'd rather open an Ice Cream truck than live in China, or commute to there. And if any of you think that our Management here take advantage of contractual loopholes, just wait til you see the shenanigans the Chinese management have in store for you, and good luck with the never ending frustration of dealing with their beaurocratic culture!
So for those reasons above, the best we can do is try to make this place the best it can be by whatever means, in order to create a positive working environment for ourselves, and to have a happy outcome at retirement time.
So I, as I suspect many of us are, do hope that many pilots here can find their "greener pastures" -and soon- so that the true shortage of pilots arises here and the contract here gets increased.
Perhaps I should open up a CV writing service and interview preparation consultancy to help this process along, and also make a little extra on the side?
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 565
Likes: 0
From: N/A
I hear this a lot, and as for me I am a product of the way seniority works in my home country, and therefore am a lifer at EK.
Unfortunately, should I elect to go home now, I'd be at the bottom of a very large seniority list, starting over at Year Zero pay, minimal leave, a huge tax bill, and topped off with a 15 year upgrade in one of the "good" bases, or perhaps 5-10 years upgrade in one of the most expensive, and therefore undesirable bases in the country and perhaps the world.
Add to that the fact that at any of my home airlines, there are literally thousands of pilots who are both SENIOR to me, and YOUNGER than me, and my chances of advancing beyond F.O. at home, and simultaneously holding a good base or equipment become astonishingly small.
Unfortunately, should I elect to go home now, I'd be at the bottom of a very large seniority list, starting over at Year Zero pay, minimal leave, a huge tax bill, and topped off with a 15 year upgrade in one of the "good" bases, or perhaps 5-10 years upgrade in one of the most expensive, and therefore undesirable bases in the country and perhaps the world.
Add to that the fact that at any of my home airlines, there are literally thousands of pilots who are both SENIOR to me, and YOUNGER than me, and my chances of advancing beyond F.O. at home, and simultaneously holding a good base or equipment become astonishingly small.
Reserve is 14 days out of 28.
Bases are Louisville, Ontario, Anchorage, Miami.
An excellent company to work for.
No need to upgrade.
Traditional pension 'A fund', money purchase pension 'B fund', 401K, and discount company stock.
Direct entry Captain management positions are also available.
B-777 check airman experience appreciated.
I'd rather go to Kalitta, who now pays $285 an hour, than put up with the unhappiness at Emirates.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
From: In Fresh Air
aeropix, Some nice words of justification. It depends mainly on your age. 10 years or less until retirement, probably a fair choice to stay. Where is your protection from one bad go-around or the like. Protection from perceived "insult" of the protected class. Just notice how they use "FOQA" data here.
Just some facts, Delta...captain at 18 months on a regular roster (ATL). Southwest....long upgrade but hiring 59 year olds, UPS....see above, United....almost half of the seniority retiring over the next five years, AA....no synergy from the merger, but with Airways pilots retiring at a rapid rate. Alaska....very senior list, even with the VA merger/acquisition. Just some data of the Legacy/Major airlines.
My point is, if the US is your base or have the right to work there, there has been never a better time for hiring since the '60s. There are a number of reasons to remain here, but IMHO the state of airline hiring and being on the bottom of a seniority list in the US is not a reason to stay.
EK has lost pilots to Delta, United, UPS, Southwest, Alaska, JetBlue within the last year, just to name those I'm sure of.
Just some facts, Delta...captain at 18 months on a regular roster (ATL). Southwest....long upgrade but hiring 59 year olds, UPS....see above, United....almost half of the seniority retiring over the next five years, AA....no synergy from the merger, but with Airways pilots retiring at a rapid rate. Alaska....very senior list, even with the VA merger/acquisition. Just some data of the Legacy/Major airlines.
My point is, if the US is your base or have the right to work there, there has been never a better time for hiring since the '60s. There are a number of reasons to remain here, but IMHO the state of airline hiring and being on the bottom of a seniority list in the US is not a reason to stay.
EK has lost pilots to Delta, United, UPS, Southwest, Alaska, JetBlue within the last year, just to name those I'm sure of.
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
From: Mars
Aero pix's post perfectly sums up why things will never get better for EK pilots. The fact that it was quickly seconded only illustrates it more.
Woe is me. It's too hard to move home. The contract jobs on offer aren't perfect. I want more of my colleagues to leave and fewer guys to join so management has to do more to make me stay (although I will not leave regardless of how bad they treat me)
Pathetic, really. Literally hundreds of EK guys have left in the last few years. Very, very few of them regret that decision. Many of them wish they had made the decision earlier. Heaps of very good jobs are around. None of them are perfect, many of them are a hell of a lot better than EK, but you have to get off your ars* and make an effort.
But you keep wallowing in your self-pity and waiting for others to make your life better. Those with similar attitudes make it easy for managers and ensure mid-East Pprune will be entertaining to read for years to come.
Woe is me. It's too hard to move home. The contract jobs on offer aren't perfect. I want more of my colleagues to leave and fewer guys to join so management has to do more to make me stay (although I will not leave regardless of how bad they treat me)
Pathetic, really. Literally hundreds of EK guys have left in the last few years. Very, very few of them regret that decision. Many of them wish they had made the decision earlier. Heaps of very good jobs are around. None of them are perfect, many of them are a hell of a lot better than EK, but you have to get off your ars* and make an effort.
But you keep wallowing in your self-pity and waiting for others to make your life better. Those with similar attitudes make it easy for managers and ensure mid-East Pprune will be entertaining to read for years to come.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 40
Likes: 3
From: Thailand
Tom
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
From: free Europe
As pilots you are always ahead of the airplane and you know what's coming from the present state of the flight.
When you think about the company and your job future you should apply the same concept. Forget about the meteoric rise and fairly pleasant cruise so far. The most basic business assumptions on revenue, cost and profit are no longer playing out. In other words the company is losing energy rapidly.
What if your culture prevented you from thinking about avoiding a stall? What if you insisted on executing a flight plan drafted a long time ago in a cosy office? What if you relieved your FO from duty because he called out the dropping Air Speed?
Don't believe for one minute that the realities of Global competition are more forgiving than the physics of flight. What is about to happen to EK is as unavoidable as an unmitigated stall.
When you bank your family's future on the rest of the EK journey you should not draw on past experience. The future will be very different. The longer they deny the truth, the less control they will have over the descent.
When you think about the company and your job future you should apply the same concept. Forget about the meteoric rise and fairly pleasant cruise so far. The most basic business assumptions on revenue, cost and profit are no longer playing out. In other words the company is losing energy rapidly.
What if your culture prevented you from thinking about avoiding a stall? What if you insisted on executing a flight plan drafted a long time ago in a cosy office? What if you relieved your FO from duty because he called out the dropping Air Speed?
Don't believe for one minute that the realities of Global competition are more forgiving than the physics of flight. What is about to happen to EK is as unavoidable as an unmitigated stall.
When you bank your family's future on the rest of the EK journey you should not draw on past experience. The future will be very different. The longer they deny the truth, the less control they will have over the descent.
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 661
Likes: 14
From: UK
Here's the thing, I go to work, I do my think, I milk EK of EVERYTHING I can. I'll keep at it until either it goes pop or I decide one of my buckets are full. Getting upset at the asinine and archaic mentality here is a complete waste of time. When the roster gets too much the number 2 is pressed and at the subsequent "attendance" meeting I'm told it's a box ticking exercise on their part, so for me it's the same.
The job is an ATM machine, nothing more...I couldn't give 2 sh1ts what a Delta or BA or Qantas person earns, if you don't like it leave, it's really rather simple, getting angry about it merely makes you look like a fool for even contemplating that you are viewed in any better light the the wobbly headed construction worker.
The job is an ATM machine, nothing more...I couldn't give 2 sh1ts what a Delta or BA or Qantas person earns, if you don't like it leave, it's really rather simple, getting angry about it merely makes you look like a fool for even contemplating that you are viewed in any better light the the wobbly headed construction worker.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
From: UAE
I couldn't give 2 sh1ts what a Delta or BA or Qantas person earns
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
From: Burgherville
Aero pix's post perfectly sums up why things will never get better for EK pilots. The fact that it was quickly seconded only illustrates it more.
Woe is me. It's too hard to move home. The contract jobs on offer aren't perfect. I want more of my colleagues to leave and fewer guys to join so management has to do more to make me stay (although I will not leave regardless of how bad they treat me)
Pathetic, really. Literally hundreds of EK guys have left in the last few years. Very, very few of them regret that decision. Many of them wish they had made the decision earlier. Heaps of very good jobs are around. None of them are perfect, many of them are a hell of a lot better than EK, but you have to get off your ars* and make an effort.
But you keep wallowing in your self-pity and waiting for others to make your life better. Those with similar attitudes make it easy for managers and ensure mid-East PPRuNe will be entertaining to read for years to come.
Woe is me. It's too hard to move home. The contract jobs on offer aren't perfect. I want more of my colleagues to leave and fewer guys to join so management has to do more to make me stay (although I will not leave regardless of how bad they treat me)
Pathetic, really. Literally hundreds of EK guys have left in the last few years. Very, very few of them regret that decision. Many of them wish they had made the decision earlier. Heaps of very good jobs are around. None of them are perfect, many of them are a hell of a lot better than EK, but you have to get off your ars* and make an effort.
But you keep wallowing in your self-pity and waiting for others to make your life better. Those with similar attitudes make it easy for managers and ensure mid-East PPRuNe will be entertaining to read for years to come.
Some here do have reason to stay, just because you want to be the duty hero and lead the charge doesn't mean you're right. There are many who have left and are happy, there are also those who would not jump so quickly if given a second chance.
The simple fact remains that no job is perfect, but if you've had enough you'll move on. Someone having a different point of view from yours doesn't make either correct and neither does your condescending post.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
From: london
Here's the thing, I go to work, I do my think, I milk EK of EVERYTHING I can. I'll keep at it until either it goes pop or I decide one of my buckets are full. Getting upset at the asinine and archaic mentality here is a complete waste of time. When the roster gets too much the number 2 is pressed and at the subsequent "attendance" meeting I'm told it's a box ticking exercise on their part, so for me it's the same.
The job is an ATM machine, nothing more...I couldn't give 2 sh1ts what a Delta or BA or Qantas person earns, if you don't like it leave, it's really rather simple, getting angry about it merely makes you look like a fool for even contemplating that you are viewed in any better light the the wobbly headed construction worker.
The job is an ATM machine, nothing more...I couldn't give 2 sh1ts what a Delta or BA or Qantas person earns, if you don't like it leave, it's really rather simple, getting angry about it merely makes you look like a fool for even contemplating that you are viewed in any better light the the wobbly headed construction worker.
Milk the system to the MAX until I ME decide when ive had enough and get out... family go home this summer one way so everything is lining up nicely
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
From: uae
A different perspective. I left EK a year ago. I'm now working elsewhere. I'm well paid, I genuinely like the people for whom I work. I respect them, they respect me. I get 121.5 days leave a year.
I was at Emirates for a long long time. I honestly didn't mind it. But on the other side what strikes me the most now is just how truly unpleasant the management attitude to the pilots was/is at EK. Perhaps it stems from the general Arab arrogance. Who knows. It's obviously going downhill fast. I'll bet the weekly bottom line is shocking. Get your licenses / ratings in order ASAP. I'm not in China and perusing the China Southern thread (take a look) there is no way on gods earth I'd work for any of that lot. But there are alternatives. And although the move seems hard, it's always that way before you actually do it. As has been alluded to in previous posts. How can anyone feel any loyalty to these people, who have treated hard working dedicated professionals with utter contempt.
It's nice to be in a different environment now. I am much much happier and that's in no small part due to the absence of the sword of Damaclese (correct my spelling !) not dangling over my head in every way.
I was at Emirates for a long long time. I honestly didn't mind it. But on the other side what strikes me the most now is just how truly unpleasant the management attitude to the pilots was/is at EK. Perhaps it stems from the general Arab arrogance. Who knows. It's obviously going downhill fast. I'll bet the weekly bottom line is shocking. Get your licenses / ratings in order ASAP. I'm not in China and perusing the China Southern thread (take a look) there is no way on gods earth I'd work for any of that lot. But there are alternatives. And although the move seems hard, it's always that way before you actually do it. As has been alluded to in previous posts. How can anyone feel any loyalty to these people, who have treated hard working dedicated professionals with utter contempt.
It's nice to be in a different environment now. I am much much happier and that's in no small part due to the absence of the sword of Damaclese (correct my spelling !) not dangling over my head in every way.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
From: UAE
Wizard1 nice perspective!
I don't work for EK because I want respect from management, I couldn't give a rats. I actually pity them because as others have mentioned in previous post, I'm here for me! When I'm done building up what I came for, I'll be out of here.
I don't work for EK because I want respect from management, I couldn't give a rats. I actually pity them because as others have mentioned in previous post, I'm here for me! When I'm done building up what I came for, I'll be out of here.