For your consideration
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For your consideration
Hi,
To those who may want to trawl my previous posts, I am like you all and wish to express my concerns about my profession here in the ME. However, RT and other media has the information that many people have wished they had long ago and it is being processed. Here in the ME (UAE), your family resides in a safe environment and your children's education costs are mostly met along with the villa and free utilities payments. I appreciate that your working conditions are far from desirable, currently......
We all know that things need to change and that only a tragedy would (has) bring about such a change (we all hope change will happen in the future). Rather than continuing the daily onslaught at the ME companies here, I say pilots should show some restraint (do the right thing) and wait to see what is happening (changes) before making any further slanderous statements.
TRYING TO do the right thing and wait for company action before spouting off here when no one knows positive steps might be happening.
If you think you are above the nonsense then I hope us pilots can come together for positive change rather than just gripes.
J
To those who may want to trawl my previous posts, I am like you all and wish to express my concerns about my profession here in the ME. However, RT and other media has the information that many people have wished they had long ago and it is being processed. Here in the ME (UAE), your family resides in a safe environment and your children's education costs are mostly met along with the villa and free utilities payments. I appreciate that your working conditions are far from desirable, currently......
We all know that things need to change and that only a tragedy would (has) bring about such a change (we all hope change will happen in the future). Rather than continuing the daily onslaught at the ME companies here, I say pilots should show some restraint (do the right thing) and wait to see what is happening (changes) before making any further slanderous statements.
TRYING TO do the right thing and wait for company action before spouting off here when no one knows positive steps might be happening.
If you think you are above the nonsense then I hope us pilots can come together for positive change rather than just gripes.
J
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Slanderous?
I was almost with you until you used the word 'slanderous.'
Would you care to be specific? If not, then your statement has just blanket slandered everyone who has made a post about aviation in the ME.
Would you care to be specific? If not, then your statement has just blanket slandered everyone who has made a post about aviation in the ME.
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I for one can tell you that I have at least 2 personal notable items that would make "the news". Perhaps slanderous was the wrong word and "sensationalist" would be more appropriate. I know that there are some here who just wish to stick the knife in and keep twisting it. I am sorry if slander was used incorrectly but I still send the same message, let's be responsible and wait before more reality above rumour is exposed here. We all know the tragedy is a step beyond what any of us wanted but, in respect to the crew and all of us crew, let's take the upper hand. Do the right thing and see what happens in the near term (fixes) before any more truths are exposed.
I stand corrected, apologies.
J
I stand corrected, apologies.
J
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Do the right thing and see what happens in the near term (fixes) before any more truths are exposed.
Truth is the one thing the Costa-dwellers fear the most. Probably because the entire operation is built on lies. How can truth be something to be shunned?
I agree I don't want their lies to be countered with more lies. But the plain, unaltered facts about rostering/fatigue are damning enough without having to resort to sensationalism.
The more light shone on dark corners, the better. Did you not read Tim's letter? Protect the brand at all costs. To hell with the truth.
Enough. EK spends millions on burnishing a certain image of shiny airplanes and smiling crew and Jennifer Anniston and the like. The time to expose the reality is far past.
People always seem to have to die in aviation before anything changes. Well, people HAVE died. Time to change things.
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Being angry, being bitter, being hasty has no benefit when the results of the FZ accident are far from being known. It could be weather, mechanical, pilot error or management associated in all of those. What I am saying is that if we pilots act like "primadonnas" then what credibility do our words or factual statements really have until we know the truth?
J
J
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Maybe and maybe not ExD. The point is though, if people are coming here into the forums for information (as we know journalists and others do), then I am hoping we can hold our heads high and talk with dignity and credibility as we are responsible in our jobs for our actions as well as our words.
Integrity is a rare value in the modern world, especially in the corporate world. I know that whistle blowers or otherwise have important information to speak of. What fools we (pilots) would be seen to be if we did not do what we do best, assess all that is going on around us before we react to produce the desired outcome.
PEOPLE ARE ASKING FOR CHANGE, HOW DO THEY KNOW IT IS NOT HAPPENING? Change takes time and less than a week since the accident is far from long enough to criticise that the voices and concerns here have not been heard.
J
Integrity is a rare value in the modern world, especially in the corporate world. I know that whistle blowers or otherwise have important information to speak of. What fools we (pilots) would be seen to be if we did not do what we do best, assess all that is going on around us before we react to produce the desired outcome.
PEOPLE ARE ASKING FOR CHANGE, HOW DO THEY KNOW IT IS NOT HAPPENING? Change takes time and less than a week since the accident is far from long enough to criticise that the voices and concerns here have not been heard.
J
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As an outsider looking in, seeing the rosters my friends do in various ME companies compared to my roster and there is no doubt in mind that cronique fatigue is highly likely by them and that they are not sustainable long term wise, further with this fatigue the risk of accidents is greatly increased.
The subject has be be approached professionally but there is an ideal moment to draw attention to and tackle this subject. As ExDubai states, the opportunity will not be there in 5-6 weeks time, indeed perhaps not in ten days if not voiced now.
The subject has be be approached professionally but there is an ideal moment to draw attention to and tackle this subject. As ExDubai states, the opportunity will not be there in 5-6 weeks time, indeed perhaps not in ten days if not voiced now.
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This is no longer an internal matter, this is a public safety issue.
Public will grateful to any pilot or news agency who tells the real story.
Crash is few days old, but culture is few years old. Pilots have been filling ASRs long before this, its been almost a year since WSJ published this news.
What would change jack, if the whole corporation is built on squeezing the employees.
Would they recruit more pilots?
Would new pilots join now the laundry is in public?
Would they cut routes?
Would they stop taking unnecessary plane deliveries?
Public will grateful to any pilot or news agency who tells the real story.
Crash is few days old, but culture is few years old. Pilots have been filling ASRs long before this, its been almost a year since WSJ published this news.
What would change jack, if the whole corporation is built on squeezing the employees.
Would they recruit more pilots?
Would new pilots join now the laundry is in public?
Would they cut routes?
Would they stop taking unnecessary plane deliveries?
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Firstly we can say that here in the ME forums that the Dubai companies have had the "balls or sense" at least to accept what is posted on here. They have not tried to remove any discussion about anything derogatory towards the company as has happened in the sticky at the top of the ME forum. Allowing this "free" speech is constructive and allows pilots from the region to express their thoughts on all topics here which no doubt the company does read. It is a wise move as it gives them a free and unbiased viewpoint from the contributors, even if some of the rants are somewhat inappropriate.
EK is making changes and there is hope from the pilots that HD will bring an unbiased and well needed change to the operation. Current concerns are the new hires from the turbo props, experienced in their fields but not in a Global Operation of this size and on new large jets. The rostering is notably poor and the company is undermanned in the cockpit. Do we help ourselves in these forums by encouraging new hires, I would say not. People seem to moan here in the eternal hope that the shortage of pilots will bring greater financial reward for those who remain in the company. There has to be change on all sides for it to be better for everyone, that change won't happen as fast as we all would like but as long as change does happen is all I can hope/ask for.
J
EK is making changes and there is hope from the pilots that HD will bring an unbiased and well needed change to the operation. Current concerns are the new hires from the turbo props, experienced in their fields but not in a Global Operation of this size and on new large jets. The rostering is notably poor and the company is undermanned in the cockpit. Do we help ourselves in these forums by encouraging new hires, I would say not. People seem to moan here in the eternal hope that the shortage of pilots will bring greater financial reward for those who remain in the company. There has to be change on all sides for it to be better for everyone, that change won't happen as fast as we all would like but as long as change does happen is all I can hope/ask for.
J
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Jack,
You loosely reference your children's education and your villa as if they company is doing you some sort of extradorinary favour by providing this. This is part of your remuneration, a contract. You fly the airplane safely and the company provides you with your salary and other benefits. If the company is acting in ways that preclude a large percentage of it's employees from performing their end of the contract safely, the public has every right to know.
I think, given the circumstances, the topic of fatigue and the way it may have contributed to flydubai's accident has been handled with plenty of professionalism and decorum on this forum. I would argue, more than is deserved.
You backed away from your initial commentary regarding slander. Good. Slander means making negative statements that are false. Nothing false is being discussed here.
Your reaction is exactly what can be expected from an expat pilot. A pilot who, in the Middle East, has no representation or protection. A pilot forever fearful of losing their job, and hence, says nothing and maintains the status quo.
Given the scrutiny you face personally as a pilot, from medical checks to numerous simulator evaluations and annual training, your life is laid wide open to deem you fit to fly, yet none of this same level of examination is applied to senior management.
Now is not the time to be silent.
You loosely reference your children's education and your villa as if they company is doing you some sort of extradorinary favour by providing this. This is part of your remuneration, a contract. You fly the airplane safely and the company provides you with your salary and other benefits. If the company is acting in ways that preclude a large percentage of it's employees from performing their end of the contract safely, the public has every right to know.
I think, given the circumstances, the topic of fatigue and the way it may have contributed to flydubai's accident has been handled with plenty of professionalism and decorum on this forum. I would argue, more than is deserved.
You backed away from your initial commentary regarding slander. Good. Slander means making negative statements that are false. Nothing false is being discussed here.
Your reaction is exactly what can be expected from an expat pilot. A pilot who, in the Middle East, has no representation or protection. A pilot forever fearful of losing their job, and hence, says nothing and maintains the status quo.
Given the scrutiny you face personally as a pilot, from medical checks to numerous simulator evaluations and annual training, your life is laid wide open to deem you fit to fly, yet none of this same level of examination is applied to senior management.
Now is not the time to be silent.
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Hi BD,
At no time in my above posts did I ever say we pilots should be silent. My tone was more to ask for restraint and to be factual without emotion to best portray the facts from a well educated and responsible pilot workforce. If pilots want to have their voice heard here, then all I asked for was restraint and for people to make well informed comments at the appropriate times when facts are known about the crash. I want the voice of the pilots to be heard as a respectable group who can make definitive factual statements without sensationalising rumours they heard or otherwise. If someone has useful factual information, please post, but ranting on without the evidence from the pilot group as a whole has little credibility.
J
At no time in my above posts did I ever say we pilots should be silent. My tone was more to ask for restraint and to be factual without emotion to best portray the facts from a well educated and responsible pilot workforce. If pilots want to have their voice heard here, then all I asked for was restraint and for people to make well informed comments at the appropriate times when facts are known about the crash. I want the voice of the pilots to be heard as a respectable group who can make definitive factual statements without sensationalising rumours they heard or otherwise. If someone has useful factual information, please post, but ranting on without the evidence from the pilot group as a whole has little credibility.
J
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Hi,
To those who may want to trawl my previous posts, I am like you all and wish to express my concerns about my profession here in the ME. However, RT and other media has the information that many people have wished they had long ago and it is being processed. Here in the ME (UAE), your family resides in a safe environment and your children's education costs are mostly met along with the villa and free utilities payments. I appreciate that your working conditions are far from desirable, currently......
We all know that things need to change and that only a tragedy would (has) bring about such a change (we all hope change will happen in the future). Rather than continuing the daily onslaught at the ME companies here, I say pilots should show some restraint (do the right thing) and wait to see what is happening (changes) before making any further slanderous statements.
TRYING TO do the right thing and wait for company action before spouting off here when no one knows positive steps might be happening.
If you think you are above the nonsense then I hope us pilots can come together for positive change rather than just gripes.
J
To those who may want to trawl my previous posts, I am like you all and wish to express my concerns about my profession here in the ME. However, RT and other media has the information that many people have wished they had long ago and it is being processed. Here in the ME (UAE), your family resides in a safe environment and your children's education costs are mostly met along with the villa and free utilities payments. I appreciate that your working conditions are far from desirable, currently......
We all know that things need to change and that only a tragedy would (has) bring about such a change (we all hope change will happen in the future). Rather than continuing the daily onslaught at the ME companies here, I say pilots should show some restraint (do the right thing) and wait to see what is happening (changes) before making any further slanderous statements.
TRYING TO do the right thing and wait for company action before spouting off here when no one knows positive steps might be happening.
If you think you are above the nonsense then I hope us pilots can come together for positive change rather than just gripes.
J
And if next week the probable cause is determined to be some broken Boeing piece our window of opportunity will close again.
The other parties in this game have billions of marketing dollars: EK, Boeing, UAE, Russia. But the dead pilots don't. They only have their five seconds of fame. I truly believe that it is in their interest if we use this moment to improve crew health and flight safety.
In my opinion no lies have been told by the pilots. Just the tip of the iceberg. The real iceberg is that safety has become optional. If you don't have enough airplanes you can't fly more routes. If you don't have enough pilots you just overwork them.
So I couldn't disagree more with the let's wait and see approach. Sorry, we are running an illegal operation and definitely have to continue doing so over the summer because profitability is a must and safety is optional. Maybe we will start to legalize things 6 months from now. But only if we can afford it.
F@ck that. If you don't have enough drivers then cut the programme. Tough luck if you lose money. Nobody forced you to bet your company on an illegal business model.
Last edited by in freedom; 25th Mar 2016 at 00:13.
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Jack
Thanks for reminding our free speech is subject to approval from a third world/medieval/colonial entity run by Sirs and Sheikhs. For some weird reason I was thinking it is my constitutional right.
If westerners are showing techniques to third world warlords on how to suppress free speech on internet, it is a shame.
For this very reason RT is your perfect match.
Thanks for reminding our free speech is subject to approval from a third world/medieval/colonial entity run by Sirs and Sheikhs. For some weird reason I was thinking it is my constitutional right.
If westerners are showing techniques to third world warlords on how to suppress free speech on internet, it is a shame.
For this very reason RT is your perfect match.
Great, groupies that are not in EK and not in the middle east now believe they have a constitutional right to have a say.
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To "ALL" those who think you have to strike while the iron is hot as the 5 to 6 week window of opportunity will close, I ask you this. Your rosters have been constructed for April, you have your history of past rosters, make your evidence known. You cannot be stopped talking to RT or otherwise and you can always post your links to your actions here.
To me, after this crash and this talk of "it's time for action" is just usual PPRuNe hype, so provide factual evidence to go along with your concerns OR, post nothing. I am sincerely hoping that the ME pilot community can be seen in a professional way in these forums. People have died in the hands of fellow professionals. Do not come this forum with rants without factual evidence to back up your statement as your time window is ticking.
Beware, rant coming....
Many years spent in the ME and reading these forums is leading me to believe that a lot of the drivel posted here, is and has mainly been posted by people who would be unhappy wherever they worked. Take a Man Up Pill or if you have nothing constructive to post then don't add to the primadonna perception some people appear to view us as. Rant over.
The accident cannot and I feel certain will not allow the ME operation to continue in the way it was run before. Changes are being made I am sure and it might take a 5 to 6 week (or longer) window to see any change.
J
To me, after this crash and this talk of "it's time for action" is just usual PPRuNe hype, so provide factual evidence to go along with your concerns OR, post nothing. I am sincerely hoping that the ME pilot community can be seen in a professional way in these forums. People have died in the hands of fellow professionals. Do not come this forum with rants without factual evidence to back up your statement as your time window is ticking.
Beware, rant coming....
Many years spent in the ME and reading these forums is leading me to believe that a lot of the drivel posted here, is and has mainly been posted by people who would be unhappy wherever they worked. Take a Man Up Pill or if you have nothing constructive to post then don't add to the primadonna perception some people appear to view us as. Rant over.
The accident cannot and I feel certain will not allow the ME operation to continue in the way it was run before. Changes are being made I am sure and it might take a 5 to 6 week (or longer) window to see any change.
J
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Jack
I agree that people sometimes post in an emotional manner, but, the issues are real and threads are relevant, facts are facts. It's hard to believe things will change for the better, past experience speaks for itself, poeple are simply losing hope.
EK.
I agree that people sometimes post in an emotional manner, but, the issues are real and threads are relevant, facts are facts. It's hard to believe things will change for the better, past experience speaks for itself, poeple are simply losing hope.
EK.
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To "ALL" those who think you have to strike while the iron is hot as the 5 to 6 week window of opportunity will close, I ask you this. Your rosters have been constructed for April, you have your history of past rosters, make your evidence known. You cannot be stopped talking to RT or otherwise and you can always post your links to your actions here.
To me, after this crash and this talk of "it's time for action" is just usual PPRuNe hype, so provide factual evidence to go along with your concerns OR, post nothing. I am sincerely hoping that the ME pilot community can be seen in a professional way in these forums. People have died in the hands of fellow professionals. Do not come this forum with rants without factual evidence to back up your statement as your time window is ticking.
Beware, rant coming....
Many years spent in the ME and reading these forums is leading me to believe that a lot of the drivel posted here, is and has mainly been posted by people who would be unhappy wherever they worked. Take a Man Up Pill or if you have nothing constructive to post then don't add to the primadonna perception some people appear to view us as. Rant over.
The accident cannot and I feel certain will not allow the ME operation to continue in the way it was run before. Changes are being made I am sure and it might take a 5 to 6 week (or longer) window to see any change.
J
To me, after this crash and this talk of "it's time for action" is just usual PPRuNe hype, so provide factual evidence to go along with your concerns OR, post nothing. I am sincerely hoping that the ME pilot community can be seen in a professional way in these forums. People have died in the hands of fellow professionals. Do not come this forum with rants without factual evidence to back up your statement as your time window is ticking.
Beware, rant coming....
Many years spent in the ME and reading these forums is leading me to believe that a lot of the drivel posted here, is and has mainly been posted by people who would be unhappy wherever they worked. Take a Man Up Pill or if you have nothing constructive to post then don't add to the primadonna perception some people appear to view us as. Rant over.
The accident cannot and I feel certain will not allow the ME operation to continue in the way it was run before. Changes are being made I am sure and it might take a 5 to 6 week (or longer) window to see any change.
J
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Nice way to ask people to shut up, Jack.
I did not apply to EK based on what EK pilots posted here. A lot of us didn't. The source of highly qualified jet pilots dried up completely, so you were left with turbo prop guys.
What did I read?
-Unsustainable rostering
-Illegal rostering with preflight duty not included
-knackered
-fatigued
-no leave for nearly a year
-only 30 of 42 days leave given
-leave given in five day blocks
-a full months production compressed into two weeks in a leave month
-factored flight hours.
-ULR followed by two days off, then a night turn around to India
-100 block hour months
-if you don't like it, leave attitude from management.
-fatigue reports ignored
-no quailty of life
-I left, I am looking to leave, pilots are leaving
-more than 50 pilots on long term medical leave.
-management ignoring the problems
-7 sets of pilot crew/aircraft vs 10 or 11 in other (western) airlines
-contracts not honoured
-pilots forced to relocate to new housing projects
That is just from the top of my head. It's all in the x number of Don't join Emirates threads in this forum, so telling everybody to shut up now is a bit late.
That is what you are doing, even if you claim not to.
I did not apply to EK based on what EK pilots posted here. A lot of us didn't. The source of highly qualified jet pilots dried up completely, so you were left with turbo prop guys.
What did I read?
-Unsustainable rostering
-Illegal rostering with preflight duty not included
-knackered
-fatigued
-no leave for nearly a year
-only 30 of 42 days leave given
-leave given in five day blocks
-a full months production compressed into two weeks in a leave month
-factored flight hours.
-ULR followed by two days off, then a night turn around to India
-100 block hour months
-if you don't like it, leave attitude from management.
-fatigue reports ignored
-no quailty of life
-I left, I am looking to leave, pilots are leaving
-more than 50 pilots on long term medical leave.
-management ignoring the problems
-7 sets of pilot crew/aircraft vs 10 or 11 in other (western) airlines
-contracts not honoured
-pilots forced to relocate to new housing projects
That is just from the top of my head. It's all in the x number of Don't join Emirates threads in this forum, so telling everybody to shut up now is a bit late.
That is what you are doing, even if you claim not to.
Last edited by Xiamen; 25th Mar 2016 at 13:38.