B777 wingtip damaged in LOS
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Humble pie? Good one... Been in Africa to long.
johnnyramjet
Please!!!!
You don’t have to be Einstein to see that the crew taxied all the way to the left of the taxi way trying to avoid..
Plain and simple, if in doubt STOP.
This is just my opinion
johnnyramjet
Please!!!!
You don’t have to be Einstein to see that the crew taxied all the way to the left of the taxi way trying to avoid..
Plain and simple, if in doubt STOP.
This is just my opinion
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Hindsight, they say, is a wonderful thing. True.
However, in our business with the frequent recurrent training pilots are mandated to undertake, the objective is to hopefully learn from others and avoid making those same mistakes again. Data shows that as an industry we must indeed be learning as accident and incident rates have declined steadily over the last 25 years. CRM training has, no doubt, played an integral part of this welcome improvement. Unfortunately though as humans, we will always find ourselves in situations that highlight our fallibility and these classic human factors events will be ever present, regardless of the amount of training undertaken. Professor James Reason's 'swiss cheese' model will always be around as long as we are.
So, I am not going to say what the crew did or didn't do correctly and I am not going to make a comment or judgement on their actions. I wasn't there! I do not know the full circumstances behind this event and neither does anyone else commenting on these forums at this stage, including the Company. The only people who do know what happened and why they took the decision they did is the crew themselves.
Making comments such as 'I wouldn't trust them anyway' (wing walkers) is one thing. Telling us what you'd actually do about it is quite another. So what would you do, shut down, disembark all the passengers on a narrow taxiway, leave the aircraft and get the engineer to sit in the seat while the aircraft is towed? Or stay on the aircraft while the engineer is in your seat? Or maybe the F/O could be the wing walker while you taxi? Or, perhaps, shut down, stay in the seat and trust the tug driver? Or forget waiting for the tug and just trust a wing walker and taxi slow? Or maybe better still, just go sick for every future LOS and any other destination that becomes an incident?
Decisions, decisions. Your call.......CAPTAIN!
Harry
However, in our business with the frequent recurrent training pilots are mandated to undertake, the objective is to hopefully learn from others and avoid making those same mistakes again. Data shows that as an industry we must indeed be learning as accident and incident rates have declined steadily over the last 25 years. CRM training has, no doubt, played an integral part of this welcome improvement. Unfortunately though as humans, we will always find ourselves in situations that highlight our fallibility and these classic human factors events will be ever present, regardless of the amount of training undertaken. Professor James Reason's 'swiss cheese' model will always be around as long as we are.
So, I am not going to say what the crew did or didn't do correctly and I am not going to make a comment or judgement on their actions. I wasn't there! I do not know the full circumstances behind this event and neither does anyone else commenting on these forums at this stage, including the Company. The only people who do know what happened and why they took the decision they did is the crew themselves.
Making comments such as 'I wouldn't trust them anyway' (wing walkers) is one thing. Telling us what you'd actually do about it is quite another. So what would you do, shut down, disembark all the passengers on a narrow taxiway, leave the aircraft and get the engineer to sit in the seat while the aircraft is towed? Or stay on the aircraft while the engineer is in your seat? Or maybe the F/O could be the wing walker while you taxi? Or, perhaps, shut down, stay in the seat and trust the tug driver? Or forget waiting for the tug and just trust a wing walker and taxi slow? Or maybe better still, just go sick for every future LOS and any other destination that becomes an incident?
Decisions, decisions. Your call.......CAPTAIN!
Harry
Last edited by harry the cod; 9th Jul 2015 at 12:31.
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Sad to see people seating in front of a computer criticizing the crew and not actually being there....
Also makes me wonder how many here are wide-body captains, so they know what they are actually commenting about. (I'm not)
Imagine you are taxing at night, now you are in doubt if there is enough clearance to go thru, you stop:
- Clear on the right?
- I'm not sure, but hey the wing walker says its okay.
- Just to make sure all go a little over to the left.
BAM
Not saying that's what actually happened, but reading that ATC, marshallers, etc... should never be trusted is absurd. We rely on them at daily basis, sometimes you do have to exercise some airmanship (what explains why he went far out to the left), but if someone gave him an okay indication it is not fair to accuse him to trust on that.
Anyways, the management will probably blame them for exiting the yellow line just like people are doing here, doing that from a table office is so much easier than flying on the line daily.
My 2 cents.
Also makes me wonder how many here are wide-body captains, so they know what they are actually commenting about. (I'm not)Imagine you are taxing at night, now you are in doubt if there is enough clearance to go thru, you stop:
- Clear on the right?
- I'm not sure, but hey the wing walker says its okay.
- Just to make sure all go a little over to the left.
BAM
Not saying that's what actually happened, but reading that ATC, marshallers, etc... should never be trusted is absurd. We rely on them at daily basis, sometimes you do have to exercise some airmanship (what explains why he went far out to the left), but if someone gave him an okay indication it is not fair to accuse him to trust on that.
Anyways, the management will probably blame them for exiting the yellow line just like people are doing here, doing that from a table office is so much easier than flying on the line daily.
My 2 cents.
Harry, you have made some fair points, and I for one have edited my previous post to reflect that without the facts, it is unfair to speculate about specifics.
FWIW, my options in similar circumstances I have faced have been exactly as you have described, perhaps you have read the ASR's
In every instance in Africa, I declined the offer of a wing-walker and utilised the company mandated, risk assessed and trained tug driver and engineer to get us out of trouble. It is of course whilst the aircraft is moving under its own power, entirely the commanders responsibility for obstacle clearance, and in the case of this being not "assured" my default position is to pass that baton onto those in a far better position to assess said clearance and take that responsibility. A cop out I am sure some will say, for me it's merely self preservation.
FWIW, my options in similar circumstances I have faced have been exactly as you have described, perhaps you have read the ASR's
In every instance in Africa, I declined the offer of a wing-walker and utilised the company mandated, risk assessed and trained tug driver and engineer to get us out of trouble. It is of course whilst the aircraft is moving under its own power, entirely the commanders responsibility for obstacle clearance, and in the case of this being not "assured" my default position is to pass that baton onto those in a far better position to assess said clearance and take that responsibility. A cop out I am sure some will say, for me it's merely self preservation.
Last edited by Monarch Man; 9th Jul 2015 at 12:47. Reason: Punctuation
Never leave the taxi line. It is the only legal defence you have. If you have doubt just stop and set the brake. How much L/R do you need-you just can't be sure-and if you leave the line then you are acknowledging doubt. Remember, its your fault Captain, if the aircraft is moving under its own power, even if its enroute and you are in the bunk as far as it is physically possible to be from your seat.
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Having worked there for some time, I think this can also be a planned setup.
Something like this...Company/airport/somebody needs cash so let's find a cash-cow, make him fall into a trap and than ask to pay the repair fees, lost profit fees, personal stress fees, knowledge fees...
Something like this...Company/airport/somebody needs cash so let's find a cash-cow, make him fall into a trap and than ask to pay the repair fees, lost profit fees, personal stress fees, knowledge fees...
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too_much
Maybe optimism, perhaps even an element of naivety on my part, but a 'you're fired!'? Hopefully not as that would merely confirm what many here already suspect, that EK is a 'Just' culture in name only.
Maybe optimism, perhaps even an element of naivety on my part, but a 'you're fired!'? Hopefully not as that would merely confirm what many here already suspect, that EK is a 'Just' culture in name only.
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To pass judgement, comment and play the amateur lawyer without being in full possession of the facts is both arrogant and naive in the extreme. It also shows an immaturity in aviation. Anyone who has been in this game long enough should know this.
With some of the posts on this site I am concerned as to who I share the skies with and am not surprised that airline managements think we are a bunch of self important muppets.
Sit back, wait for the facts, wish the crew the best and try to avoid making a public spectacle of ignorance.
With some of the posts on this site I am concerned as to who I share the skies with and am not surprised that airline managements think we are a bunch of self important muppets.
Sit back, wait for the facts, wish the crew the best and try to avoid making a public spectacle of ignorance.
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Not working for ek however familiar with lagos and nigeria. By the pics it looks like they were taxing to 18L which is not the usual runway for international departure out of lagos. That aircraft hak has been sitting in what looks to be out of position for months. i have seen 737 s deflecting left of centerline to avoid the aircraft and i cant imagine a 777. Yes the centerline must be followed at all times as avoator however in nigeria i have seen so many cases where staying on centerline would put you right into trouble.
Last edited by josmison; 10th Jul 2015 at 08:48.
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I was interested to see someone say that the 737 had been parked out of position for months. Combine that, with what sounds like a non standard runway for departure, and the swiss cheese model is in full force. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. From our armchairs looking at pictures, we can see that it was never going to work ( the port main was all but off the taxiway ). We all go to airports on the EK network where the "normal rules" just don't apply. I mean, who would of thought it would be routine to hold off for a rocket attack, not fly over that way due to small arms fire from the hills, or come up with a plan as the airport was the scene of a firefight? No one gets up thinking, I'll just fall into a wee trap today. There are so many occasions at work where we might think, s**t, I wish I hadn't done that. If we are lucky, at worse, it might mean calling a tug for taking a wrong taxiway. If it ends up like this one did, thats really bad luck. We strive to trap threats and brief in a TEM style to avoid days like this one for our entire career. If we are lucky, we are known for our professional and incident free record and are well thought of. If despite everything we are for just one day caught out, we are that bloke who f****d up, this despite the other 20,000+ other incident free hours.
To all those who have chosen to judge, or offer a less than complimentary opinion of the crew, I hope you don't one day rue the day you made your comments. So what if it was their fault? I feel for them and am sure that they don't need any help with the kicking in the bolax department. The fact is, they are now dealing with an unenviable situation with a company that is historically unforgiving. I for one hope that they are treated fairly and wish them well. We should learn from these events and move forward together.
To all those who have chosen to judge, or offer a less than complimentary opinion of the crew, I hope you don't one day rue the day you made your comments. So what if it was their fault? I feel for them and am sure that they don't need any help with the kicking in the bolax department. The fact is, they are now dealing with an unenviable situation with a company that is historically unforgiving. I for one hope that they are treated fairly and wish them well. We should learn from these events and move forward together.
short flights long nights
Well said, Basic.
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Well said
Right on Basic and Harry. All our careers in the ME environment are "so far, so good". As you stated so well, one little moment of inattention or bad judgement and the spotless career is over.
To those judging the crew, one has to ask when was the last time they made a "perfect" flight accomplishing 100% SOP compliance, answering every ATC communication, performing perfect briefings and flawless CRM. If you are one to say that EVERY flight is spot on, then you are only a section of time away from YOUR first encounter with the fickle finger of fate. We can only hope that our failings do not engender injuries or worse.
We are professionals. We make mistakes. The only difference is the degree and consequences. The question is, what led to this intimate encounter between two excellent aircraft and how can we all ensure it does not happen again? This highly trained crew did not do this on purpose, so what are the reasons that brought an otherwise normal and routine departure to this unlikely conclusion. Possibly the AIRPORT should be removed from wide body operations?
To those judging the crew, one has to ask when was the last time they made a "perfect" flight accomplishing 100% SOP compliance, answering every ATC communication, performing perfect briefings and flawless CRM. If you are one to say that EVERY flight is spot on, then you are only a section of time away from YOUR first encounter with the fickle finger of fate. We can only hope that our failings do not engender injuries or worse.
We are professionals. We make mistakes. The only difference is the degree and consequences. The question is, what led to this intimate encounter between two excellent aircraft and how can we all ensure it does not happen again? This highly trained crew did not do this on purpose, so what are the reasons that brought an otherwise normal and routine departure to this unlikely conclusion. Possibly the AIRPORT should be removed from wide body operations?
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Spot on, Basic Service, very well said.
But I suspect that in some cases the urge to apply the common sense to which you've alluded is, unfortunately, influenced or even overwhelmed in this company by knowledge of the history of reaction by our fine management to certain decisions by Pilots In Command over the years. Anything that hits the hub or causes bad press...... They've created a toxic environment in which to operate as a commander. Want examples? There are many.
But I suspect that in some cases the urge to apply the common sense to which you've alluded is, unfortunately, influenced or even overwhelmed in this company by knowledge of the history of reaction by our fine management to certain decisions by Pilots In Command over the years. Anything that hits the hub or causes bad press...... They've created a toxic environment in which to operate as a commander. Want examples? There are many.
