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Middle East is bad... So where to?

Middle East Many expats still flying in Knoteetingham. Regional issues can be discussed here.

Middle East is bad... So where to?

Old 4th Sep 2014, 11:30
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,040
LAKER

Not for one minute am I saying property is cheap in Dubai. it isn't. Renting and buying will require substantial financial commitment but that could also be said of any major city now. Singapore, London, Paris, New York, Hong Kong, Sydney...........

The point is, those like myself who've been here a few years had 3 choices. Stay in Company accommodation, rent or buy. They each have their pro's and con's so we make our choice and accept it. The trough in the property market was there for everyone up to 2 years ago. Some capitalised on that, others didn't. I did buy and it required a substantial deposit. That's my risk along with a friggin big mortgage. Those that rent are subject to the whim of the landlord and the sentiment of the rental market. That too is a risk but doesn't require a deposit and commitment on a buying scale. The final option is the Company. The upside is it's completely free and there's no tie whatsoever. The downside is you live where they tell you to live. Meydan had been talked about for over 3 years. Some people buried their heads in the hope it wouldn't materialise.

Those that are joining today will not be in a position to buy 'a nice big villa in Arabian Ranches'. Neither was I when I joined 12 years ago as a junior F/O with a young family. I can't see many DEP's in their early 30's joining BA, Lufthansa, Delta or wherever expecting to afford similar accommodation to senior Captains in their late 40's, early 50's, can you? I bought my very first house 25 years ago with a mortgage for 3x salary. 15 years ago you needed 6x. Now it's almost 8 with this figure being even higher in London.

There are times when we have to stop blaming the Company for situations that are either not in their direct control or are Worldwide issues. If the new guys don't like what's on offer when they visit, don't join. It really is that simple.

Harry

AC

Just seen your post. Half? Maybe, but with you accommodation for free. I clear $19,000 per month. Line Captain, no training, housing allowance. Unlikely China is making any Provident contributions in that figure too. As for the pollution and traffic..... if you thought Dubai was bad! I know you're a doomsday practitioner on these threads so it's always good sitting on the see saw with you at playtime!

Last edited by harry the cod; 4th Sep 2014 at 11:52.
harry the cod is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2014, 11:44
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 172
Yeah Harry so you are still $3,000 below the China airlines and working 15% more hours at Emirates. Some of the airlines in China allow you to be based in the country of your choice.
I said my salary is almost half but then included the allowances. If you didn't hang around playgrounds looking for your next conquest you would realize what was going on.
Alconguin Crusader is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2014, 11:47
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cloud Cookoo Land
Posts: 1,270
Everywhere is the same. You work more for less, regardless. The pursuit of fortune and a quickish command only leads to disappointment. Just look at Emirates. Air Asia offering DE CUs? Do you believe that? Or $250,000 'packages' in a Chinese smoggfest endorsed by some dubious agency who are contracted by an even more dubious airline.

Two rules, stay at home where you are happiest and don't give up a command if you have earned one. Money and opportunity are here today's gone tomorrow's in an industry that can barely stay still for 24 hours.

Alternatively you could become a 'Drone Pilot'. There's an advert for one at the bottom of this page!

Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 4th Sep 2014 at 11:56. Reason: Added something
Callsign Kilo is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2014, 11:51
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,084
Well, if it boils down to money, EK doesn't look spectacular but by no means really bad. You will stay alive and well but no way you will raise and feed a family and put aside enough for a decent retirement.

Most complaints however go with the rest of the T&Cs (apart from some twats who play grammar police). So if the thread starter chases dollars and has a LC job, fine. But be aware of the downside of this place.
glofish is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2014, 11:55
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,040
AC

But the most ironic and laughable aspect of your posts is that YOU'RE STILL HERE!

I always left the playground when I got bored or found a better one. I didn't stay at the same one for years and years complaining. Go to China and give us all a break for **** sake!

Harry
harry the cod is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2014, 12:04
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: charleroi
Posts: 123
harrycod wrote:
Those that are joining today will not be in a position to buy 'a nice big villa in Arabian Ranches'. Neither was I when I joined 12 years ago as a junior F/O with a young family.
Those that are joining today are quite likely to still be F/Os in 12 years from now rather than having 9 years of command salary behind them like you have. Although apparently recruitment are still advertising "fast" commands. I would blame the company for that.
montencee is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2014, 12:27
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,040
Perhaps even more of a reason for them NOT to join. All prospective new joiners should be asking how 'fast' is being defined by EK. Being specific and entirely honest is not a forte of this outfit!

Harry
harry the cod is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2014, 12:54
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: sand box
Posts: 128
Buying a property in Dubai in the current market is a huge gamble. Despite the agents spinning a good yarn the fact is prices have stalled and are decreasing at an ever increasing rate.
There was even an article in a local paper on the looming property correction which is very unusual as articles like that are usually frowned upon by the authorities.
It won't crash like 2008 but 20 to 30 percent is on the cards. Timing is everything in Dubai property so for those thinking of jumping in at the present time be very careful.
emratty is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2014, 13:00
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 52
Posts: 183
What is the salary for a First Officer at EK?
Sam Ting Wong is online now  
Old 4th Sep 2014, 13:36
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hang on, let me check the FMS...
Posts: 195
Ah, another thread where ppruners strive to find air utopia

It doesn't exist guys, every job in the world has pros & cons.

The OP was asking about the ME, NOT EK....

I wouldn't leave the UAE (but I wouldn't work anywhere else in the ME either) because away from PPRuNe in the real world there isn't much better overall deals out there right now.

Go home to Europe? I would earn less, wouldn't get my home base so would still be away from home anyway, career would take a step back, and I would have less disposable income to what I have here.

Go to China? Until I meet someone thats actually been there and enjoyed it not on your nelly, I only ever fly or speak to pilots who have left china to come to the ME, and all are glad they escaped, with most saying "the ME is civilised compared to china" How bad is china then?....

Take the money, enjoy the lifestyle, enjoy the quick career progression (EK aint the only carrier in the UAE!), and sit back & watch the US/Europe continue to struggle, content in the knowledge that when/if they ever do recover you will return with a nice sun tan, some money in your back pocket & some interesting dinner party stories.
Or spend your entire time here, b*tching, being a recluse, flying home at every opportunity and then wonder why you feel disconnected and hate it so much...
FlyingTinCans is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2014, 16:02
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hotels
Posts: 189
Sam Ting Wong What is the salary for a First Officer at EK?
Good grief!

ekwhistleblower is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2014, 16:43
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: MIDDLE EAST
Posts: 1,040
FlyingTinCans

If that post was on Facebook, I'd have given you a 'LIKE' for that. Nicely put sir and wholeheartedly agree.

Harry
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Old 4th Sep 2014, 17:33
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: delaware
Posts: 114
Go home to Europe? I would earn less, wouldn't get my home base so would still be away from home anyway, career would take a step back, and I would have less disposable income to what I have here.
The trick is probably to not leave Europe in the first place. There was a time when after not too many years in the Middle East you could go home with enough cash to buy property and have a mortgage free hobby-job. That's gone now and if you go home early you won't catch up on lost seniority and commensurate income.

Even the positive posts on this board have a hint of faint praise, frustration, compromise and even slight despair.
whossorrynow is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2014, 19:38
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hang on, let me check the FMS...
Posts: 195
The trick is probably to not leave Europe in the first place.
I could have stayed in Europe, and spent another 5 years not moving on the seniority list. In fact if I had of stayed id have moved backwards on it. All while struggling to pay for my families monthly shopping bill, watching airline stagnation completely ruin my career, instead of eating out twice a week in 5 star resorts, drinking beer on the beach, and driving around in my ridiculously uneconomical american muscle car. If an airline could offer me all that back home then of course I wouldn't have ever left, but it doesn't exist! You are confusing 'frustration, compromise, despair' with 'reality'

you won't catch up on lost seniority and commensurate income.
Thats a huge sweeping statement. I personally left Europe as a turboprop FO, I could return now as a jet DEC if I wanted. That would mean I in fact leapfrog most of my 'senior' ex-colleagues and I have earned & more importantly saved far more than them too.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 02:38
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Domaine de la Romanee-Conti
Posts: 1,680
There's more to Asia than mainland China, just saying ... there's also jobs to be found in Japan, Vietnam, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea, Malaysia, Indo, Singapore, Thailand ...

People hear horror stories about "China" and mentally put them all into that same basket, but actually they are all very different countries, different cultures, different jobs.

No job is perfect but there are plenty of people out east who are glad they left the sandpit.
Luke SkyToddler is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2014, 03:08
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,484
There may be another option for Europeans in the next year or two:


Ryanair considering the A350, B787 for transatlantic flights - ch-aviation.com
Iver is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2014, 03:51
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: delaware
Posts: 114
I personally left Europe as a turboprop FO, I could return now as a jet DEC if I wanted. That would mean I in fact leapfrog most of my 'senior' ex-colleagues...
Sure, you could return as a jet DEC to Ryanair, Norwegian, Jet2 or Wizz if you wanted. Staying in Europe you would have been there anyway.

You are confusing 'frustration, compromise, despair' with 'reality'
I forgot to mention denial.
whossorrynow is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:43
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 172
There are plenty of good jobs in Europe it is just emirates pilots didn't get hired by any of them. After all do you see any LH, AF, or BA pilots in the sand.
Now we have a turboprop pilot comparing his old job to an international Widebody airline. That doesn't do us any favors.
Harry what airline did you work at before? Your silence is deafening. You are just like that wimp on another thread who chastises Americans but refuses to identify where he comes from. It is easy to trash someone when you don't know how to respond or what you are dealing with.
There are some FOs that make more than Emirates pilots and we have pilots on this forum saying Emirates is a great airline. Look around and see what the good airlines are paying.
Alconguin Crusader is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:56
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 683
Alconguin Crusader,
After all do you see any LH, AF, or BA pilots in the sand.
Not wishing to get into an argument, nor to steal your thunder, but yes there are MORE than a few EX employees from these 3 fine airlines that presently work in the sand.
Now back to your bickering…..
falconeasydriver is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:57
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: KUL
Posts: 431
After all do you see any LH, AF, or BA pilots in the sand.
Actually yes. Not in masses - but yes - all of the above.
MrMachfivepointfive is offline  

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