EK logging of bunk time to change
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2014
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From: Over there
EK logging of bunk time to change
Hi all,
Heard a rumour that currently EK drivers don't log time in the bunk but that rule is about to change? Any truth to this? If so what are the implications of this? Start accrediting overtime pay or hire more pilots?
Heard a rumour that currently EK drivers don't log time in the bunk but that rule is about to change? Any truth to this? If so what are the implications of this? Start accrediting overtime pay or hire more pilots?
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Expat land
Somewhat true, I think
True, this change will come in at some stage and will require some additional pilots (source: one of the Training Managers I spoke to recently).
However, it won't change the hours you log in your logbook (yes, EK pilots log hours in the bunk, like most long haul airlines). The difference is Emirates doesn't count bunk hours for the augmenting (cruise) Capt and F/O towards flight & duty limits. That's it. They do for flight experience records.
So it won't affect your hours for upgrade, or for another job, or your pay (yes you get paid for all bunk hours too). If you're not sure, have a look at your flying records on the portal and see how many hours you have according to the company.
More pilots will be required as the 900/year limit will be broken by some ULR regulars (but that could well go to 1000/year with the change, I hear), plus a few rostering complications, but not so big a deal really.
However, it won't change the hours you log in your logbook (yes, EK pilots log hours in the bunk, like most long haul airlines). The difference is Emirates doesn't count bunk hours for the augmenting (cruise) Capt and F/O towards flight & duty limits. That's it. They do for flight experience records.
So it won't affect your hours for upgrade, or for another job, or your pay (yes you get paid for all bunk hours too). If you're not sure, have a look at your flying records on the portal and see how many hours you have according to the company.
More pilots will be required as the 900/year limit will be broken by some ULR regulars (but that could well go to 1000/year with the change, I hear), plus a few rostering complications, but not so big a deal really.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Boldly going where no split infinitive has gone before..
And the way that 900hrs is calculated is laid out in our Regulator Approved manual, and is adhered to.
I'm not saying I like it, it sucks and will hopefully be changed, but it is legal by the laws EK is subject to.
I have no idea if other UAE airlines do the same (Well, the unmentionable would be the only other one with Augmented ops), but if they presented their OMA to the GCAA with the same clause, and the GCAA approved it, their operation would be legal.
What you don't understand (well, one of the MYRIAD of things you don't understand) is that here- as in the WHOLE OF EUROPE- FTLs are a matter of individual operators having FTL schemes included in their manuals, and those manuals being approved.
As to other airlines going over 900hrs?
Well, lets start with all the Australian Airlines who are approved to go to 1000hrs, all the European ones who do likewise (and, it seems, EASA is about to make that universal) or......
All the US operators who are able to legally do 1200hrs under the FARs, on far shorter rest periods than are mandatory here (even AFTER your recent change).
Guess they're all operating illegally, huh?
I'm not saying I like it, it sucks and will hopefully be changed, but it is legal by the laws EK is subject to.
I have no idea if other UAE airlines do the same (Well, the unmentionable would be the only other one with Augmented ops), but if they presented their OMA to the GCAA with the same clause, and the GCAA approved it, their operation would be legal.
What you don't understand (well, one of the MYRIAD of things you don't understand) is that here- as in the WHOLE OF EUROPE- FTLs are a matter of individual operators having FTL schemes included in their manuals, and those manuals being approved.
As to other airlines going over 900hrs?
Well, lets start with all the Australian Airlines who are approved to go to 1000hrs, all the European ones who do likewise (and, it seems, EASA is about to make that universal) or......
All the US operators who are able to legally do 1200hrs under the FARs, on far shorter rest periods than are mandatory here (even AFTER your recent change).
Guess they're all operating illegally, huh?
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: New England
First of all the FAA limits airlines to 1000 hours.
In addition to that no airline get close to the limit. After all you don't run your car at Red Line why would an airline run it's pilots at Red Line unless they are inviting disaster.
You are right I don't understand why or how pilots allow the things that happen to them to carry on. I know in the sand you have no rights and have the contract to prove it but Europe? They have strong unions, stronger even then in the US.
In addition to that no airline get close to the limit. After all you don't run your car at Red Line why would an airline run it's pilots at Red Line unless they are inviting disaster.
You are right I don't understand why or how pilots allow the things that happen to them to carry on. I know in the sand you have no rights and have the contract to prove it but Europe? They have strong unions, stronger even then in the US.
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From: i'm in the parking lot
any one hear the cvr from the ups crash in BHM? is it true the cvr caught both pilot's yawning and the CA said in a earlier sector "this trip will kill me...?"
I haven't heard it myself.....
I haven't heard it myself.....
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Boldly going where no split infinitive has gone before..
Tom, Guess you've never heard of Ryanair then.
Turtle- Ah! But that's freight! freight pilots, like regional pilots and..well...anyone who isn't Tom doesn't count, you see.....
Turtle- Ah! But that's freight! freight pilots, like regional pilots and..well...anyone who isn't Tom doesn't count, you see.....
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Boldly going where no split infinitive has gone before..
Actually, since the recent amendment and insertion of the word "Block" as a definition of hours, you are probably right- but it is now in the hands of the regulator to require amendment of the OMA- this is what the OP was saying and was probably right- it was just Tom that was wrong- but he makes a habit of that.
Last edited by Wizofoz; 25th February 2014 at 16:44.
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From: Hades.
To be honest I'm not sure how much difference the "block" makes.
The definition of flight time, IIRC, is brake off to brake on (or chocks). The CARs never made any allowance for factoring other than for time claimed to obtain an ATPL as mentioned above.
The UK CAA were approached by a UK company about it but European law prevented it. They weren't happy about it in any case.
The local story was allegedly that Etihad applied for factoring but were turned down, EK having grandfather rights but supposedly time (un)limited!
The definition of flight time, IIRC, is brake off to brake on (or chocks). The CARs never made any allowance for factoring other than for time claimed to obtain an ATPL as mentioned above.
The UK CAA were approached by a UK company about it but European law prevented it. They weren't happy about it in any case.
The local story was allegedly that Etihad applied for factoring but were turned down, EK having grandfather rights but supposedly time (un)limited!
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Boldly going where no split infinitive has gone before..
h-d,
Yes, but there is a separate definition in the CARS -"Flight deck duty time" which specifies time in an operating position.
On THAT definition, they would be entitled to count NO bunk time- so at to moment we have sort of an amalgam.
BUT, Block hours are defined as chocks off to chocks on, so I can't see any way around them having to change- but I'm sure they'll try for later rater than sooner!!
Yes, but there is a separate definition in the CARS -"Flight deck duty time" which specifies time in an operating position.
On THAT definition, they would be entitled to count NO bunk time- so at to moment we have sort of an amalgam.
BUT, Block hours are defined as chocks off to chocks on, so I can't see any way around them having to change- but I'm sure they'll try for later rater than sooner!!
Joined: Dec 2007
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From: Texas, America !
"BUT, Block hours are defined as chocks off to chocks on, so I can't see any way around them having to change- but I'm sure they'll try for later rater than sooner!"
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Omniscient Wiz....it depends on what part of the world you happen to be in and whom you work for. ACARS brake release is used by many, DGS docking systems that measure actual A/C movement by others. Wheel chocks? Not so much anymore.
BTW, TCat is correct. In the USA, 1,000 hrs "block" time is the max, not 1,200.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Omniscient Wiz....it depends on what part of the world you happen to be in and whom you work for. ACARS brake release is used by many, DGS docking systems that measure actual A/C movement by others. Wheel chocks? Not so much anymore.
BTW, TCat is correct. In the USA, 1,000 hrs "block" time is the max, not 1,200.
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Boldly going where no split infinitive has gone before..
"Chocks on/off" is nomenclature for starting-stopping motion, NOT the actual placing or removing of chocks. Do you still log "Stick time"? When was the last time you were behind an actual stick??
Pax major airline? sure.
How about freight, commuter or part 121 charter?
In OTHER parts of the world, fatigue is considered a bad thing no matter what you fly.
BTW, TCat is correct. In the USA, 1,000 hrs "block" time is the max, not 1,200.
How about freight, commuter or part 121 charter?
In OTHER parts of the world, fatigue is considered a bad thing no matter what you fly.
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: New England
So the way Emirates works it's pilots fatigue is not a concern or problem?
Freight and cummuter pilots work 1000 hours max in the US. This is a FAA rule and as I said before no pilot flies close to that number.
Freight and cummuter pilots work 1000 hours max in the US. This is a FAA rule and as I said before no pilot flies close to that number.