Hold at DESDI/BUBIN but then short cut arrival?!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dubai and Sunderland
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Falconeasydriver - I am glad it is as obvious to you as it looks to us, unfortunately it tends to be the following aircraft who are sent around as if you send first one round by the time starts the go-around you very likely have lost vortex and the following still likely to fly through wake!
The visual maintaining own separation is a useful aid if the following aircraft is able to see and accept. In most cases its the same 'company' effected!!
The visual maintaining own separation is a useful aid if the following aircraft is able to see and accept. In most cases its the same 'company' effected!!
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,098
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ 10 DME and falcon:
Please don't send the slow fraction around. They will only slow down some more airspace!
The holding with subsequent shortcuts from the trombone make sense if you listen to the controllers. It gives them flexibility with all the astronauts flying in this region.
(rant on)
It is appalling to see some inability of compliance with speed instructions and the absence of path awareness with shortcuts. If you need the full trombone because your ability stops at managed flying, then tell the poor controllers already in the hold.
Oh, and by the way please refrain from asking if the opposite runway is available due to 5kts tailwind at peak times. It only makes your lack of situational awareness apparent .....
(rant off)
Please don't send the slow fraction around. They will only slow down some more airspace!
The holding with subsequent shortcuts from the trombone make sense if you listen to the controllers. It gives them flexibility with all the astronauts flying in this region.
(rant on)
It is appalling to see some inability of compliance with speed instructions and the absence of path awareness with shortcuts. If you need the full trombone because your ability stops at managed flying, then tell the poor controllers already in the hold.
Oh, and by the way please refrain from asking if the opposite runway is available due to 5kts tailwind at peak times. It only makes your lack of situational awareness apparent .....
(rant off)
Falcon- Please don't start a 777 vs airbus debate here. I have seen both 777s and airbus 380s and littleleruns, stuff around with the speed control. It certainly isn't just the purvey of airbus to not comply.
On a side issue- Please Ladies and Gentlemen- when you first contact Arrivals on 124.9 please just say your call sign altitude passing and aircraft type as per the CCI/AOI.
When you start saying emirates x passing x descending to x received atis x qnh x "boeing 777" (or "Airbus 343") with the associated arrhs and ums, you invariably block radio transmissions and cause more confusion on a busy frequency.
On a side issue- Please Ladies and Gentlemen- when you first contact Arrivals on 124.9 please just say your call sign altitude passing and aircraft type as per the CCI/AOI.
When you start saying emirates x passing x descending to x received atis x qnh x "boeing 777" (or "Airbus 343") with the associated arrhs and ums, you invariably block radio transmissions and cause more confusion on a busy frequency.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No need to be so sensitive REX, certainly NOT my intention, I'm only speaking of my own experience in the last couple of months.
Anecdotally it would appear that the 380 fleet are the biggest constituent part of the problem given the amazing wing on the thing and its consequently lower Vref.
That being said, I've had some sideways glances when briefing an approach in a light 777 to use F25 so as to better fit into the sequence, not withstanding landing perf considerations, which would suggest their are a few 777 drivers also guilty. For me flying an approach at 145-150 kts fits in much better when everyone else is, as opposed to being the only one doing 130 and getting a 160/4 instruction then struggling to "reasonably expect" being on speed at 500 AAL.
I should also add re: CCI and AOI info radio calls etc, do that and you have a better than even chance of being queried "confirm you have ATIS * ?"
Anecdotally it would appear that the 380 fleet are the biggest constituent part of the problem given the amazing wing on the thing and its consequently lower Vref.
That being said, I've had some sideways glances when briefing an approach in a light 777 to use F25 so as to better fit into the sequence, not withstanding landing perf considerations, which would suggest their are a few 777 drivers also guilty. For me flying an approach at 145-150 kts fits in much better when everyone else is, as opposed to being the only one doing 130 and getting a 160/4 instruction then struggling to "reasonably expect" being on speed at 500 AAL.
I should also add re: CCI and AOI info radio calls etc, do that and you have a better than even chance of being queried "confirm you have ATIS * ?"
Last edited by falconeasydriver; 10th Feb 2014 at 05:03.
I should also add re: CCI and AOI info radio calls etc, do that and you have a better than even chance of being queried "confirm you have ATIS * ?"
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Falcon- u should try making the correct call sometime. Atc never say confirm u have atis x.
Maybe we should all bow down to the Oracle that is your goodself…you have spoken so thus twas nout uttered...
Falcon- sounds like you should take your own advice and stop being so sensitive.
Your assertion that you say the atis because you don't want to be asked by Atc if you have received it may be true- but the fact is - you are not meant to say what atis you have received. It is laid out in black and white re what you are supposed to say on first contact- so just do it.
(Ps from the sounds of you I'd be very worried what the cc put on your coffee)
Your assertion that you say the atis because you don't want to be asked by Atc if you have received it may be true- but the fact is - you are not meant to say what atis you have received. It is laid out in black and white re what you are supposed to say on first contact- so just do it.
(Ps from the sounds of you I'd be very worried what the cc put on your coffee)
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Empty quarter
Age: 44
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Falcon the only self appointed oracle on here is you. Once again you are letting your undeserved high opinion of yourself cloud the issue.
The call is as mentioned above.Its been around here longer than you and your tiresome opinions have. Gradually the word is getting around and the RT is improving in this area. The fact that the odd variation occurs does not detract from that. The fact that opinionated insecure underachievers like yourself continue to embellish the call with some misguided sense of superior airmanship also does not alter the requirement. It only exacerbates the congestion and highlights your actual lack of airmanship.
So which is it? An inability to read or willful non compliance . Whatever it doesnt help.
You have a lot of patronising opinions about all things aviation, colleagues et al.None of them complimentary unless it concerns your input, knowledge,skills and attitude. That is a normal trait for an underachieving, chippy ex military and self confessed career f/o.
I am also pretty sure you get lots of sideways glances as you give forth from the right seat, but probably not for the reasons your ego imagines.
The call is as mentioned above.Its been around here longer than you and your tiresome opinions have. Gradually the word is getting around and the RT is improving in this area. The fact that the odd variation occurs does not detract from that. The fact that opinionated insecure underachievers like yourself continue to embellish the call with some misguided sense of superior airmanship also does not alter the requirement. It only exacerbates the congestion and highlights your actual lack of airmanship.
So which is it? An inability to read or willful non compliance . Whatever it doesnt help.
You have a lot of patronising opinions about all things aviation, colleagues et al.None of them complimentary unless it concerns your input, knowledge,skills and attitude. That is a normal trait for an underachieving, chippy ex military and self confessed career f/o.
I am also pretty sure you get lots of sideways glances as you give forth from the right seat, but probably not for the reasons your ego imagines.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your assertion that you say the atis because you don't want to be asked by Atc if you have received it may be true- but the fact is - you are not meant to say what atis you have received. It is laid out in black and white re what you are supposed to say on first contact- so just do it.
I haven't yet offered what I transmit on initial contact, BTW, what part of Oz are you from Rex?Jim Touché, I also smell, and most likely have interpersonal issues when I put on my leather flying gloves.
To be honest I'm barely able to pass wind these days, let alone a PPC.
re: CCI and AOI info radio calls etc, do that and you have a better than even chance of being queried "confirm you have ATIS * ?"
It says where I am from in Australia in my profile.
I'm sorry Falcon, I was just pointing out the correct thing to say on first contact to approach, and that the entire spectrum of operators tend to not comply with the assigned final speeds. Too bad you feel the need to insult and belittle others on here.
Arrival managers are able to give a sequence accurate down to about +\- 1 or 2 minutes unless aircraft are being flowed through the same gate. This is due to inaccuracies in the forecast vs system winds, aircraft profiles, and just the inability of some aircraft to hit the fix accurately. Obviously in a 2 minute sequence, +\- 1 or 2 minutes is not good enough. So there will either be a Radar vector to final or some sort of track stretching star like the trombone or point merge to refine the flow.
In normal operations you wouldn't expect to fly the full star, it's designed so you can be short cut or stretched to hit the slot bang on.
This more a general point on stars and AMAN Not specifically related to DXB.
In normal operations you wouldn't expect to fly the full star, it's designed so you can be short cut or stretched to hit the slot bang on.
This more a general point on stars and AMAN Not specifically related to DXB.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 683
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess that is where I got it from.
It says where I am from in Australia in my profile.
I'm sorry Falcon, I was just pointing out the correct thing to say on first contact to approach, and that the entire spectrum of operators tend to not comply with the assigned final speeds. Too bad you feel the need to insult and belittle others on here.
It says where I am from in Australia in my profile.
I'm sorry Falcon, I was just pointing out the correct thing to say on first contact to approach, and that the entire spectrum of operators tend to not comply with the assigned final speeds. Too bad you feel the need to insult and belittle others on here.
I am a product of the environment I operate in, in as much when Captains want my opinion, they give it to me, so in that respect treat my comments/observations on that basis i.e. I'm embittered and have a limited intellectual capability/vocabulary.
Jihad gets no such apology…but only because he's right.
I'm not a frequent visitor to DXB so please bear with me. Last week we held for 20 minutes, were then vectored outbound for approx further 5-10 mins then turned back onto the full RNAV STAR before finally becoming established on the RNAV approach behind (I think) a medium jet. We complied with speed instructions as quickly and as accurately as we could and yet we still ended up catching up the aircraft in front. We were broken off the approach and dog-legged back onto it again before finally the aircraft in front had its approach broken off.
Is this normal for DXB these days? We had, IIRC, 22 mins contingency, RNAV STAR fuel plus a bit extra and we were starting to discuss our fuel options in the event of a G/A. Planning is manageable if holding was just 20 mins as advised by ATC but to then vector us around for a further 10 mins then fly the full STAR starts to make fuel planning for DXB tyros more challenging. The weather was CAVOK and the winds were, IIRC, light at all levels so can we expect these sort of delays for every arrival? Our company fuel planning program gave us increased contingency so statistically I believe that these delays are becoming the norm but can someone with better local knowledge confirm or deny my instincts.
Incidentally, some indication of track miles would have helped. Again, not being familiar with the environment did leave us wondering when we were going to be turned back in - it did feel like a long way out (before anyone asks we were watching the aircraft in front to see when they were turning base).
Thanks
Is this normal for DXB these days? We had, IIRC, 22 mins contingency, RNAV STAR fuel plus a bit extra and we were starting to discuss our fuel options in the event of a G/A. Planning is manageable if holding was just 20 mins as advised by ATC but to then vector us around for a further 10 mins then fly the full STAR starts to make fuel planning for DXB tyros more challenging. The weather was CAVOK and the winds were, IIRC, light at all levels so can we expect these sort of delays for every arrival? Our company fuel planning program gave us increased contingency so statistically I believe that these delays are becoming the norm but can someone with better local knowledge confirm or deny my instincts.
Incidentally, some indication of track miles would have helped. Again, not being familiar with the environment did leave us wondering when we were going to be turned back in - it did feel like a long way out (before anyone asks we were watching the aircraft in front to see when they were turning base).
Thanks
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dubai and Sunderland
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ham Phisted - The vector after the hold seems to be the way area achieve AMAN timings, your delay probably equated in time to less than another trip round the hold! 20min would have been peak wave times or during single runway ops.
Two go-arounds?? My watch were not on shift, well I cannot remember it so?? Track miles should be given or approx base leg point so you can work it out so apologies there!
Two go-arounds?? My watch were not on shift, well I cannot remember it so?? Track miles should be given or approx base leg point so you can work it out so apologies there!
