There goes the profit share - again
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There goes the profit share - again
From the Arabian Industry website - full article here:
Who makes the decision when the clock is running out on these late departures? I hope some of the capts are being coerced into accepting responsibility for it at the time: "It's up to you, Captain..."
If they had balls they would put something in the CCI or OM-A as guidance.
Dubai’s Emirates Airline has been charged by Australian transportation authorities with breaking an overnight curfew at Sydney Airport, it was reported.
Australia’s Department of Infrastructure and Transport is pushing ahead with charges against the operator following three alleged breaches of the late night/early morning curfew between 2011 and 2013.
The newspaper said that Emirates faces a maximum fine of AUD$550,000 (US$521,181) for each breach of the curfew, which is in force between 23:00 and 06:00 local time and is designed to minimise noise disturbance.
Australia’s Department of Infrastructure and Transport is pushing ahead with charges against the operator following three alleged breaches of the late night/early morning curfew between 2011 and 2013.
The newspaper said that Emirates faces a maximum fine of AUD$550,000 (US$521,181) for each breach of the curfew, which is in force between 23:00 and 06:00 local time and is designed to minimise noise disturbance.
If they had balls they would put something in the CCI or OM-A as guidance.
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I recently came very close to busting the curfew at Sydney and ops were clear about it. Got an ACARS through saying we MUST to be off the ground by xx:xx or the company would be fined and the PIC would be held responsible.
I took that as a very clear message from the company. If in doubt, ask. Get it in writing and keep the ACARS paperwork.
I suppose on a different day with a fuller aircraft it might be cheaper to pay the fine than put 500 people in hotels, sort out the missed connections and the general chaos that follows a cancelled flight. Most of the passengers on an Australian flight will be connecting to somewhere else once they get to Dubai.
I took that as a very clear message from the company. If in doubt, ask. Get it in writing and keep the ACARS paperwork.
I suppose on a different day with a fuller aircraft it might be cheaper to pay the fine than put 500 people in hotels, sort out the missed connections and the general chaos that follows a cancelled flight. Most of the passengers on an Australian flight will be connecting to somewhere else once they get to Dubai.
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A look at the 413 departures in Nov alone show 3 departures well past 22:00, some past 23:00. These would have most certainly broken curfew if you interpolate the wheels up time.
What happens in these cases? If the company is putting the ball in our court, wouldn't it be easier to just set the parking brake and call it a day. I'm all about the company and protecting the operation, but why put your career in jeopardy if the company is stating the PIC will be held responsible. Why make yourself uncomfortable with a Mach 1.0 taxi speed and warp speed checklist usage?
Am I missing something here? For the guys taking off well past curfew, is the company telling them it's ok and that EK take full responsibility? Because if not, wouldn't the decision be to return to stand and call it a day?
I'm not pointing fingers at the guys that did break curfew as we weren't in the cockpit, nor do we have the full picture. I'm more curious as to what is going on behind the scenes. Are these crew being reprimanded upon return to Dubai?
What happens in these cases? If the company is putting the ball in our court, wouldn't it be easier to just set the parking brake and call it a day. I'm all about the company and protecting the operation, but why put your career in jeopardy if the company is stating the PIC will be held responsible. Why make yourself uncomfortable with a Mach 1.0 taxi speed and warp speed checklist usage?
Am I missing something here? For the guys taking off well past curfew, is the company telling them it's ok and that EK take full responsibility? Because if not, wouldn't the decision be to return to stand and call it a day?
I'm not pointing fingers at the guys that did break curfew as we weren't in the cockpit, nor do we have the full picture. I'm more curious as to what is going on behind the scenes. Are these crew being reprimanded upon return to Dubai?
short flights long nights
What I have never understood about the Sydney curfew is, is it really a curfew ?
If it is, come 11.00 pm you can't go, full stop. But it seems you can go if you want and cop a fine at a later date. So it's a curfew you have when your not having a curfew.
If it is, come 11.00 pm you can't go, full stop. But it seems you can go if you want and cop a fine at a later date. So it's a curfew you have when your not having a curfew.
And what about company scheduling dept. Who on earth skeds departures close to a curfew ? Well, I guess the answer is "We all do" but how inept. I too got caught three times out of Sydney; One time, at the holding point because ATC changed runways. Actually, they were trying to help but it gave a TWC just out of limits. I went back to the ramp & night-stopped but expecting severe fall out when returning to Base, our, then, fabbo Fleet Boss replied to my VR by saying " you are not the first to be caught & you won't be the last". Boy, where are Fleet Bosses like that today ?
RIMJOB, when the curfew looks like it will be a problem, you sat phone DXB ops with plenty of time available. After explaining the problem to them, you will be given the "We don't think it will be a problem, just do your best, and call again if you are gonna bust it." .
Then when at the holding point with seconds to go, and on the phone with them again, they say they will get a dispensation for you. There then comes a period of nothing happening while you sit burning fuel, waiting.
Then out of the blue TWR will call to say you "might" have a dispensation, but you will have to be airborne in 2min. A quick call to DXB to confirm takes a bit of time, but will confirm that if you are airborne, now within the next 60sec, you are good to go. Quick ready call to TWR, and TOGA from the hold point allows a rushed departure.
Luckily, when airborne you will receive multiple ACARs from every man and his dog, asking the same questions to confirm you made it on time and that "YOU" didn't bust the curfew. These are best ignored.
The Don
Then when at the holding point with seconds to go, and on the phone with them again, they say they will get a dispensation for you. There then comes a period of nothing happening while you sit burning fuel, waiting.
Then out of the blue TWR will call to say you "might" have a dispensation, but you will have to be airborne in 2min. A quick call to DXB to confirm takes a bit of time, but will confirm that if you are airborne, now within the next 60sec, you are good to go. Quick ready call to TWR, and TOGA from the hold point allows a rushed departure.
Luckily, when airborne you will receive multiple ACARs from every man and his dog, asking the same questions to confirm you made it on time and that "YOU" didn't bust the curfew. These are best ignored.
The Don
TWR will clear you to do what you want, regardless of dispensation or not. If you have a dispensation there is no fine.
For 16R you need to taxi prior to the witching hour. 34L is be airborne by witching hour.
The don
For 16R you need to taxi prior to the witching hour. 34L is be airborne by witching hour.
The don
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Originally Posted by JAArule
AUD$550,000 (US$521,181) for each breach of the curfew
So try not to be so dramatic
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Does anyone personally know of any crew that broke curfew? And if so, what did the company do upon return to base?
With the dispensation, I understand its probably not a big deal. I'm more curious about fella's who break it without the dispensation or if they were wheels up at say 23:00:01pm. As the CCI states 22:59:59pm. (22:44:59pm for Rwy 34L). Seems quite clear there is little room for error… even if it's a matter of seconds.
With the dispensation, I understand its probably not a big deal. I'm more curious about fella's who break it without the dispensation or if they were wheels up at say 23:00:01pm. As the CCI states 22:59:59pm. (22:44:59pm for Rwy 34L). Seems quite clear there is little room for error… even if it's a matter of seconds.
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Dispensation
There are NO dispensations given for the curfew in or out of Sydney. My source for this is the recent Transport Minister, Albo, personally over the phone.
Things may change soon now they have a new transport minister, but it is very simple. Take off (land) before the curfew time, or go back to blocks. Both the Airline and the PIC are legally liable, so do NOT bust it!!
PS. Jetstar were recently convicted of a similar offence with same potential fine but only copped a fraction of it in the end. This makes it a smart business decision for the airline to go, but it still leaves the Captain hung out to dry.
Things may change soon now they have a new transport minister, but it is very simple. Take off (land) before the curfew time, or go back to blocks. Both the Airline and the PIC are legally liable, so do NOT bust it!!
PS. Jetstar were recently convicted of a similar offence with same potential fine but only copped a fraction of it in the end. This makes it a smart business decision for the airline to go, but it still leaves the Captain hung out to dry.
Departed after curfew once in SYD when it was a 777 trip.
A few things were in our favour.
Wind was favouring 16R ✔
Got taxi clearance at 2258L ✔
SMNC was jumping up and down a bit. That didn't help.
Things that can go wrong:
Taxi clearance after 2300L.
Terminal closed.
Customs, Quarantine staff gone home.
Using 34, 25, 07.
Duty free closed
Then finding rooms, min-rest, lost connections......
And finding a bay to use the next day may be an issue too.
halas
A few things were in our favour.
Wind was favouring 16R ✔
Got taxi clearance at 2258L ✔
SMNC was jumping up and down a bit. That didn't help.
Things that can go wrong:
Taxi clearance after 2300L.
Terminal closed.
Customs, Quarantine staff gone home.
Using 34, 25, 07.
Duty free closed
Then finding rooms, min-rest, lost connections......
And finding a bay to use the next day may be an issue too.
halas
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It would be much less ambiguous , and much more transparent if the control tower simply DENIED taxi or takeoff clearance to the affected aircraft.
One could argue " cleared for takeoff " was exactly that - both regarding the safety of the takeoff run and departure area and the curfew. To allow an aircraft to takeoff and then institute a fine amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars , in my opinion is tantamount to entrapment. Grow some balls SYD ATC. The phrase , " airport is closed " is simple for anyone to understand. Barring that , why not just turn out the friggen lights ???? Duhhhh
One could argue " cleared for takeoff " was exactly that - both regarding the safety of the takeoff run and departure area and the curfew. To allow an aircraft to takeoff and then institute a fine amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars , in my opinion is tantamount to entrapment. Grow some balls SYD ATC. The phrase , " airport is closed " is simple for anyone to understand. Barring that , why not just turn out the friggen lights ???? Duhhhh
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To allow an aircraft to takeoff and then institute a fine amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars , in my opinion is tantamount to entrapment.
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It would be much less ambiguous , and much more transparent if the control tower simply DENIED taxi or takeoff clearance to the affected aircraft.
ATC are not the police!
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If they aren`t the " police " , then what gives them the " right " to institute a fine ? A good lawyer , informed and coherent should be able to make a mockery of this flawed " policy " , as it is definitely a subjective issue. At the end of the day , a government entity is complicit in shall we just call it , the old " bait and hook ". As a revenue generator , this policy is inefficient , as a noise protecting environmental policy , this policy is inefficient. This doesn`t just apply to YSSY , but to many ATS providers. The rules need to be enforced not as a tactic but as an overall strategy to protect noise sensitivity. Incredulous and sarcastic. 
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Ok let me be clearer, the individual ATC giving the clearance is not there to police a law that has nothing to do with air safety. I don't work in Sydney but I do know that there are many aircraft that operate after the curfew time so to "turn the lights out" would disrupt the operations of a lot of freighter traffic and medical traffic that operate during the night.
I agree that the Sydney curfew is a joke but to lay the blame at the feet of the controller in the tower for issuing the clearance is the wrong way to go, the same I would think as laying the blame on the PIC.
The controller would have been following his procedures just the same as I am would be almost certain the PIC was following orders from the company.
Just remember these incidents had absolutely nothing to do with air safely which is the main focus of both pilots and controllers.
I would also be almost certain that Emirates knew exactly what they were doing and made a very smart business decision.
I agree that the Sydney curfew is a joke but to lay the blame at the feet of the controller in the tower for issuing the clearance is the wrong way to go, the same I would think as laying the blame on the PIC.
The controller would have been following his procedures just the same as I am would be almost certain the PIC was following orders from the company.
Just remember these incidents had absolutely nothing to do with air safely which is the main focus of both pilots and controllers.
I would also be almost certain that Emirates knew exactly what they were doing and made a very smart business decision.