United pilots welcome return of furloughed aviators
Guest
Posts: n/a
JuniorMan are you kidding??
20 years in the sand pit of 90 plus hours a month being treated the way we are vs home country living and all the perks that go along with it... not to mention being treated far better???
I agree from an earlier post the US airline industry always seems to be on thin ice with the smallest hiccup in the world causing havoc and crisis there but again... 20 years here or 20 years there???
Just a thought....
Kap
20 years in the sand pit of 90 plus hours a month being treated the way we are vs home country living and all the perks that go along with it... not to mention being treated far better???
I agree from an earlier post the US airline industry always seems to be on thin ice with the smallest hiccup in the world causing havoc and crisis there but again... 20 years here or 20 years there???
Just a thought....
Kap
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: earth
Posts: 1,098
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's all a matter of perspective. I guess that a not insignificant number of non US pilots would trade their position at EK in a fraction of a second with a green card and an entry ticket to a 73 FO position in the US ........
By the way: Capt. America is alive and well, still able to tarnish our image in a fraction of a second on Dubai's golf courses.
By the way: Capt. America is alive and well, still able to tarnish our image in a fraction of a second on Dubai's golf courses.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SFO
Age: 45
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kapitanleutnant,
I must admit, I have no idea what it is like to work at EK. I do hear a great deal about the 5 year upgrades into the 777, the never ending expansion, the tax free income, and all the other perks associated with the T&Cs at EK. Most of this is coming from American pilots at EK. I can tell you a lot about life as a reserve 737 pilot based out of ORD or EWR; or what it's like to be with UA for over 8 years and still be number 9,800 out of 12,000 with no upgrade or F/O position on a widebody in sight. Good luck with your decision guys. I hope you make the right choice.
I must admit, I have no idea what it is like to work at EK. I do hear a great deal about the 5 year upgrades into the 777, the never ending expansion, the tax free income, and all the other perks associated with the T&Cs at EK. Most of this is coming from American pilots at EK. I can tell you a lot about life as a reserve 737 pilot based out of ORD or EWR; or what it's like to be with UA for over 8 years and still be number 9,800 out of 12,000 with no upgrade or F/O position on a widebody in sight. Good luck with your decision guys. I hope you make the right choice.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Hell in a hand basket
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any position flying a narrow body in the US is hands down better than anything the sandbox has to offer. Stability at EK is the ONLY nice thing about EK and I see that eroding at an increasing pace. You only have one life and sitting in air conditioned, plastic, vane, backasswards hell hole shouldn't be a place for anyone.
Last edited by Likeitis; 9th Sep 2013 at 22:37.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Fatbus my point was that I think almost all of us at EK would prefer to be doing exactly what we do now.... but in our home land whether it be Canada, US or wherever you may come from.
"Almost" all of us. I realize some countries may not have much of an aviation industry as Europe etc...
I suppose it would all really depend on where your passport is from ???
Kap
"Almost" all of us. I realize some countries may not have much of an aviation industry as Europe etc...
I suppose it would all really depend on where your passport is from ???
Kap
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Western Pacific Ocean
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unless the furloughed UAL pilot flying the M.E. or China is blind to the terms of the new pilot contract at united, I see 100% returning to UAL. I am speaking about UAL furloughs flying for ME or China carriers. Furloughs who secured employment in the US with, say FDX, UPS or SWA, are likely not to return. But those in the ME, Japan, and China are returning. We're seeing that now.
The pay is simply way better than any ME or contract job, and you get days off to boot. My FO made $23,000 last month on a NB aircraft. He is pretty junior, at 6 yr pay, and still had 11 days off. He did that by picking up 2 trips on his days off that pay 200% (I think the trips were 9 hr turns so he was home by the afternoon). The 787 has an FO who made $56K a few months ago. Again, double-time trips, flying on days off, etc. But most of my buddies on that plane, all FOs, told me they usually do $25-$30K per month. So if money is the motivation, there's plenty to be made. I think that guy who made $56K he is pay-protected as a Captain (he has been promoted to Captain on a 737 but due to FO shortage they kept him on the 787 FO list for now) so that's how he got to such a high number in one month. Still, $56,000 to spend 6 hrs of your day in the bunk. Not bad. Then there is the $8960 he gets towards his retirement account for that month (16% into his retirement B-fund).
Now to be fair, these are pilots who are capturing opportunities as a result of chaos. So this isn't straight-time pay. In order to make that kind of money has to hustle. But for every pilot who wants money, there are plenty of want days off instead... so it's not that hard to find double-pay trips. The 787 is woefully understaffed so the company is desperate for crews to cover flights. On many trips all 4 pilots are making double pay. It's either that or cancel the flight. And the rest of the airline, on the CAL side, is pretty understaffed, hence the opportunities on the NB aircraft as well. How long that chaotic situation lasts is the question. Once checkairman said it will last for the next few years as the company dragged it's feet for too long on hiring so we're playing catchup. Add in more aircraft coming in every month (28 new aircraft between now and May of next year alone, hundreds more coming in between now and 2017), retirements, improved work rules as a result of the new contract, increased trip-rig pay next year (1 hr for every 3.5 hrs duty, this means 1 hr pay for every 3.5 hrs away from base, designed to force the company to scheduled the pilot more efficiently, which means more days off, or pay him for being gone translate into more bodies needed to cover the monthly schedule), the early-out package $20 million enticement to get guys to pull the chord early, which will add in 200 early retirees, and the impending FAR 117 (Jan 2014). One can quite easily see that the company is waaaaaaaay behind the curve in terms of getting control of the staffing shortfall.
Of course we have a pretty high tax rate in the US (not nearly as bad as Europe), so 35% of that will go toward helping Uncle Sam find another war to fight (I hate that). But some guys are savy enough can manipulate their tax rate down to 15%. So the average pilot will pay around 20-25% in taxes.
For me, I like my days off. If I need money beyond my monthly nut, I trade a few days for more pay. But I mostly fly less, make less, because I live on less. That translates into more than half the month off, a far better form of currency than money, IMO. Last month I had 22 days off. Most of my FOs made more than me, but they worked for it.
I didn't do as well as I thought I would on the SLI (seniority list integration) so I started looking at contract gigs again overseas, thinking I might take a leave and go make some cash while I wait for the retirement boom to repair my seniority loss. But nothing comes even close to pay and lifestyle. And I think many overseas US pilots will pick up on that as the hiring boom begins. Anybody who gets on at UAL as a new-hire in the next year or two will upgrade to Captain in less than 8 years if they want to. Captain at US carriers typically runs at 68-72% seniority as many bypass upgrading to be a senior FO instead (often making more that way).
So the point is, most of the UAL furloughs flying in the ME will return, and plenty more "under-40s" pilots will be applying to work in the US again. Delta, SWA, Hawaiian, and American are all hiring or will be shortly. At UAL, there are 400+ retirements a year for the next 20+ years with some years above 600/ yr. Delta has a big boom coming but not until around 2020, American also.
The pay is simply way better than any ME or contract job, and you get days off to boot. My FO made $23,000 last month on a NB aircraft. He is pretty junior, at 6 yr pay, and still had 11 days off. He did that by picking up 2 trips on his days off that pay 200% (I think the trips were 9 hr turns so he was home by the afternoon). The 787 has an FO who made $56K a few months ago. Again, double-time trips, flying on days off, etc. But most of my buddies on that plane, all FOs, told me they usually do $25-$30K per month. So if money is the motivation, there's plenty to be made. I think that guy who made $56K he is pay-protected as a Captain (he has been promoted to Captain on a 737 but due to FO shortage they kept him on the 787 FO list for now) so that's how he got to such a high number in one month. Still, $56,000 to spend 6 hrs of your day in the bunk. Not bad. Then there is the $8960 he gets towards his retirement account for that month (16% into his retirement B-fund).
Now to be fair, these are pilots who are capturing opportunities as a result of chaos. So this isn't straight-time pay. In order to make that kind of money has to hustle. But for every pilot who wants money, there are plenty of want days off instead... so it's not that hard to find double-pay trips. The 787 is woefully understaffed so the company is desperate for crews to cover flights. On many trips all 4 pilots are making double pay. It's either that or cancel the flight. And the rest of the airline, on the CAL side, is pretty understaffed, hence the opportunities on the NB aircraft as well. How long that chaotic situation lasts is the question. Once checkairman said it will last for the next few years as the company dragged it's feet for too long on hiring so we're playing catchup. Add in more aircraft coming in every month (28 new aircraft between now and May of next year alone, hundreds more coming in between now and 2017), retirements, improved work rules as a result of the new contract, increased trip-rig pay next year (1 hr for every 3.5 hrs duty, this means 1 hr pay for every 3.5 hrs away from base, designed to force the company to scheduled the pilot more efficiently, which means more days off, or pay him for being gone translate into more bodies needed to cover the monthly schedule), the early-out package $20 million enticement to get guys to pull the chord early, which will add in 200 early retirees, and the impending FAR 117 (Jan 2014). One can quite easily see that the company is waaaaaaaay behind the curve in terms of getting control of the staffing shortfall.
Of course we have a pretty high tax rate in the US (not nearly as bad as Europe), so 35% of that will go toward helping Uncle Sam find another war to fight (I hate that). But some guys are savy enough can manipulate their tax rate down to 15%. So the average pilot will pay around 20-25% in taxes.
For me, I like my days off. If I need money beyond my monthly nut, I trade a few days for more pay. But I mostly fly less, make less, because I live on less. That translates into more than half the month off, a far better form of currency than money, IMO. Last month I had 22 days off. Most of my FOs made more than me, but they worked for it.
I didn't do as well as I thought I would on the SLI (seniority list integration) so I started looking at contract gigs again overseas, thinking I might take a leave and go make some cash while I wait for the retirement boom to repair my seniority loss. But nothing comes even close to pay and lifestyle. And I think many overseas US pilots will pick up on that as the hiring boom begins. Anybody who gets on at UAL as a new-hire in the next year or two will upgrade to Captain in less than 8 years if they want to. Captain at US carriers typically runs at 68-72% seniority as many bypass upgrading to be a senior FO instead (often making more that way).
So the point is, most of the UAL furloughs flying in the ME will return, and plenty more "under-40s" pilots will be applying to work in the US again. Delta, SWA, Hawaiian, and American are all hiring or will be shortly. At UAL, there are 400+ retirements a year for the next 20+ years with some years above 600/ yr. Delta has a big boom coming but not until around 2020, American also.
Last edited by Geebz; 17th Sep 2013 at 23:24.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Western Pacific Ocean
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Falcon 10
Oh and in reply to Falcon 10's comments. I quite agree. But I've never messed with the help throughout my career... errrrr, ahhhh, well, almost never. So who's in the back doesn't play into my thought process. But, yes, I'll agree, a younger cabin crew is always preferable to the majority of cat ranchers we have in the US.
Not all are old hags though.
Not all are old hags though.
Last edited by Geebz; 17th Sep 2013 at 22:57.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: .
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Geebz, we must know the same guys... I have run into several UCAL guys on the 737 and 756 that have repeatedly made $24k+ a month picking up some trips on days off or being displaced. I have seen their W2 and it made me sick. The money is definitely there, as is the time off and retirement!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Geebz,
I'm going to call BS on that 56K number. The top pay rate at UAL for a 12 year captain on the 787 is $235/hour. The contract allows for double pay on certain trips. If the guy was somehow able to get double pay on every single trip for the month (impossible) and flew 100 hours for the month he would be looking at 47k. Pretty awesome pay but nearly 10k short of the number you quoted.
Maybe you could show us a scenario where he can get to 56K/month on $235/hour? Is the per diem that good? It would be AWESOME to see UAL pilots making $600+k/year but I think that's a bit of a pipe dream at the moment. I would be surprised if you had any making over 350k.
I don't think the choice for a UAL furloughee is as easy as you claim. Those fo's gaming the system are obviously quite senior in their category. Also as you say the company won't pay that kind of premium on a regular basis for years to come. So a junior furloughed pilot is looking at a quick upgrade to 210k+ mostly tax free at EK or go back for 10-15 plus years in the right seat. Probably better off long term at UAL but quicker money upfront at EK. Depends on the individual i guess.
I'm going to call BS on that 56K number. The top pay rate at UAL for a 12 year captain on the 787 is $235/hour. The contract allows for double pay on certain trips. If the guy was somehow able to get double pay on every single trip for the month (impossible) and flew 100 hours for the month he would be looking at 47k. Pretty awesome pay but nearly 10k short of the number you quoted.
Maybe you could show us a scenario where he can get to 56K/month on $235/hour? Is the per diem that good? It would be AWESOME to see UAL pilots making $600+k/year but I think that's a bit of a pipe dream at the moment. I would be surprised if you had any making over 350k.
I don't think the choice for a UAL furloughee is as easy as you claim. Those fo's gaming the system are obviously quite senior in their category. Also as you say the company won't pay that kind of premium on a regular basis for years to come. So a junior furloughed pilot is looking at a quick upgrade to 210k+ mostly tax free at EK or go back for 10-15 plus years in the right seat. Probably better off long term at UAL but quicker money upfront at EK. Depends on the individual i guess.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmmm.
a ten year Capt at EK takes a basic of mid 40's, flight pay average of 4k, accom is approx 14k, thats close to 65kAED pm in hand(17kUSD plus), how you wish to spend it is up to you....travel is great if used to its full potential, medical (crap service) but available, same with dental. Provident fund approx 250k after ten years if you just took cash, so I can see why its such a crap deal..... or do I?
And no, not an office guy writing on behalf of the minions...just a reality check! We each seek something different from life, this fits some, not others.....live with it or move on to wherever you think suits you best....but from some of the bitter comments sounds like some wouldn't be happy even in heaven!
a ten year Capt at EK takes a basic of mid 40's, flight pay average of 4k, accom is approx 14k, thats close to 65kAED pm in hand(17kUSD plus), how you wish to spend it is up to you....travel is great if used to its full potential, medical (crap service) but available, same with dental. Provident fund approx 250k after ten years if you just took cash, so I can see why its such a crap deal..... or do I?
And no, not an office guy writing on behalf of the minions...just a reality check! We each seek something different from life, this fits some, not others.....live with it or move on to wherever you think suits you best....but from some of the bitter comments sounds like some wouldn't be happy even in heaven!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Geebz
You make some good points and most the guys from the states I know here in the ME are indeed planning their exit strategy... and quite honestly, can't blame them at all.
It's almost a comparison of the old apples vs oranges thing... except in this case my apple is exactly the same size as your orange. Its just sliced different.
I as a ME captain on a widebody will put my package up against any US widebody captain and, at the end of the month I bet I have the same or more cash on hand than a US widebody captain. We get a LOT of benefits in this region, but there is a reason for that... it has to be offered to attract people here.
I found that if I keep my nose clean and heed the company SOP's, it's not so bad here. Yes we realize we work harder than you guys do in the US. It's a different philosophy here.
At a previous airline I recall a widebody roster of having 9 days of flying consisting of three 3-day trips and having 21 days off while achieving 76 hours which was just below the max allowed. At the current airline its been said that flying so few days in a month is akin to "stealing from the airline". That's the mentality here. Is the productivity the same or not when I fly 19 days a month for similar hours (more hours actually)? Honestly don't know.
The one major wildcard in the US is (IMO).... the US Airline industry always seems to operate on thin ice. If something happens in the rest of the world (e.g., Syria etc) and oil prices spike a bit, or if another Bernie Madoff appears outta nowhere, all bets are off.
So many variables to put into this equation but at the end of the day, my apple is exactly like your orange.... they're sliced differently!
And ya, the 56K figure sounds a bit unbelievable to me as well. I've heard some SW guys making about 18-20K when they hustle, but 56K? Hmmm.....
Kap
You make some good points and most the guys from the states I know here in the ME are indeed planning their exit strategy... and quite honestly, can't blame them at all.
It's almost a comparison of the old apples vs oranges thing... except in this case my apple is exactly the same size as your orange. Its just sliced different.
I as a ME captain on a widebody will put my package up against any US widebody captain and, at the end of the month I bet I have the same or more cash on hand than a US widebody captain. We get a LOT of benefits in this region, but there is a reason for that... it has to be offered to attract people here.
I found that if I keep my nose clean and heed the company SOP's, it's not so bad here. Yes we realize we work harder than you guys do in the US. It's a different philosophy here.
At a previous airline I recall a widebody roster of having 9 days of flying consisting of three 3-day trips and having 21 days off while achieving 76 hours which was just below the max allowed. At the current airline its been said that flying so few days in a month is akin to "stealing from the airline". That's the mentality here. Is the productivity the same or not when I fly 19 days a month for similar hours (more hours actually)? Honestly don't know.
The one major wildcard in the US is (IMO).... the US Airline industry always seems to operate on thin ice. If something happens in the rest of the world (e.g., Syria etc) and oil prices spike a bit, or if another Bernie Madoff appears outta nowhere, all bets are off.
So many variables to put into this equation but at the end of the day, my apple is exactly like your orange.... they're sliced differently!
And ya, the 56K figure sounds a bit unbelievable to me as well. I've heard some SW guys making about 18-20K when they hustle, but 56K? Hmmm.....
Kap
Last edited by Kapitanleutnant; 18th Sep 2013 at 07:00.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A SWA captain makes 18-20K just for waking up in the morning. The ones who really hustle and work the system make 30K plus. Easily.
You used to make as much as any US widebody Captain. But that was during the last 10 years of bankruptcy wages. They are quickly gaining all that back. I don't think any EK captain makes as much as the top DAL, Fedex, UPS, UAL, or SWA captains. But the catch is you can make captain at EK in under 5 years while it would take a few decades to top out at the above mentioned US carriers. However there are thousands of upcoming retirements.
The problem I see going forward is that Emirates is going to get left in the dust pay wise. 4 billion AED profit and we received one half of one percent increase in basic. 40%+ rise in housing prices and our accommodation allowance didn't increase by a single dirham. virtually zero incentive pay and removal of most quality of life bidding options.
During the decade long restructuring of the US airline industry it could be argued an EK captain was better off. But looking forward with just 3-4 major players in the US Airline industry I think the salaries are going to make anything in the ME look substandard at best. Unless the present mgt changes course. But as many people said numerous times mgt won't likely care if 200 or so pilots leave for greener pastures. There are many regions of the world where EK is the ultimate dream job.
just my humble opinion of course.
You used to make as much as any US widebody Captain. But that was during the last 10 years of bankruptcy wages. They are quickly gaining all that back. I don't think any EK captain makes as much as the top DAL, Fedex, UPS, UAL, or SWA captains. But the catch is you can make captain at EK in under 5 years while it would take a few decades to top out at the above mentioned US carriers. However there are thousands of upcoming retirements.
The problem I see going forward is that Emirates is going to get left in the dust pay wise. 4 billion AED profit and we received one half of one percent increase in basic. 40%+ rise in housing prices and our accommodation allowance didn't increase by a single dirham. virtually zero incentive pay and removal of most quality of life bidding options.
During the decade long restructuring of the US airline industry it could be argued an EK captain was better off. But looking forward with just 3-4 major players in the US Airline industry I think the salaries are going to make anything in the ME look substandard at best. Unless the present mgt changes course. But as many people said numerous times mgt won't likely care if 200 or so pilots leave for greener pastures. There are many regions of the world where EK is the ultimate dream job.
just my humble opinion of course.
Last edited by Laker; 18th Sep 2013 at 07:38.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Geebz,
I think your FO was blowing smoke up your as$. 6 year narrowbody FO pay at UAL is 118/hour. Lets pretend he flew 100 hours for the month. In addition instead of getting 9 hours credit for two turns he got 18 on each. So that puts him at 118 credit hours for the month. I'm not even sure UAL will build a line to 100 hours credit. But lets say he somehow reached this 118 value then his gross pay would be $13,924.
Not even in the same neighborhood as what you quoted. To reach 23k/month at $118/hour your buddy would have to be approaching 195 credit hours per month. Never going to happen at UAL. Not even SWA...
I think your FO was blowing smoke up your as$. 6 year narrowbody FO pay at UAL is 118/hour. Lets pretend he flew 100 hours for the month. In addition instead of getting 9 hours credit for two turns he got 18 on each. So that puts him at 118 credit hours for the month. I'm not even sure UAL will build a line to 100 hours credit. But lets say he somehow reached this 118 value then his gross pay would be $13,924.
Not even in the same neighborhood as what you quoted. To reach 23k/month at $118/hour your buddy would have to be approaching 195 credit hours per month. Never going to happen at UAL. Not even SWA...
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Everywhere & Nowhere
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Laker,
While this isnt strictly to the U.S market, how would you say that it would compare to a job at the likes of BA/VS right now vs the US majors such as CAL, UAL etc?
While this isnt strictly to the U.S market, how would you say that it would compare to a job at the likes of BA/VS right now vs the US majors such as CAL, UAL etc?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: any town as retired.
Posts: 2,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Corporate perspective
What is the view of the uptick (love that word)...... on corporate hiring.
Executive jets are flooding the Far and Middle East, the adverts offer corporate crews good (LOL) money and good (even more LOL) conditions.
Is the market in USA opening up.
Glf
Executive jets are flooding the Far and Middle East, the adverts offer corporate crews good (LOL) money and good (even more LOL) conditions.
Is the market in USA opening up.
Glf