Callsign confusion

[pilotday]

Seeing more and more callsign confusion in Dubai

Flight 74 or 734? "Emirates SEVEN FOUR" vs. "Emirates SEVEN tree FOUR"

Maybe we can learn a thing or two from those damn yankees

"Emirates Seventy-Four" vs "Emirates Seven thirty-four"

[Rule3]

Try Bahrain Airspace

Not only do we have Emirates, we also have, The Airline "we are not allowed to mention, plus Arabia, Fly Dubai, and Qatari.

Then we get ABC156 track..... XYZ623 was that for me.

[Mr Good Cat]

Whilst this does present a huge threat and there is daily evidence of this happening, the problem does not lie with the airlines.

It lies with the many rudimentary ATC of the states we fly across.

Take Baghdad ATC for example. They will only let gulf carriers transit their airspace using the commercial flight number as callsign.

I'm not quite sure of the reasons for this but at the moment there's no solution in sight unfortunately.

Perhaps their needs to be more ASRs filed - it certainly won't help if there's no evidence of a problem on paper. I am guilty of this myself - quite often when I'm tired and the quality of ATC radio equipment is poor (take Ankara for example) I will sometimes mistake XYZ 19 for XYZ 119 or YXZ 19 etc etc.

Maybe it will take a serious incident or even an accident to drive a change?

In the meantime how about including the threat as a big part of your Threat and Error Management stuff on the departure or arrival briefing? I see so many guys who come straight out of line training who can spend 30 minutes briefing me that our home base of DXB has 3 degree PAPIs, ILS, HIALS, REIL blah blah blah but then has not been made of aware of the real threats that could lead to a bad day out.

Thoughts or suggestions?

[Rule3]

Totally Confused Mr Good Cat

Are you kidding. The problem lies wholly and solely with the airlines for having so many similar callsigns all flying in the same direction at the same time.

The airlines allocate the Flight numbers NOT ATC.

[irish777]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why do the airlines use flight numbers as call signs? In the UK at least (and probably elsewhere) the airlines run their call signs through a system that will generate awkward callsigns like UAE7GP to avoid such issues - seems to work quite well there other than not remembering what your callsign actually is!

[LouthGirl]

Flight numbers are the callsigns in a way...

For instance, if your flight number is BA123 the callsign is speedbird 123.


because of so much air traffic, the skies today are waking up to the concept of alpha-numeric callsigns. These do run thru all these checks and balances but every now and then you've two callsigns that just endup sounding the same.

How you say? Without these checks and balances these would be considerably higher. This is perhaps down to a very very safe and acceptable level of safety

[bcgallacher]

During a busy period in the Philippines I was flight mech on a 747 returning to Manila - I think we were flight No 301A while an additional Airbus A 300 was 301 this resulted in a complete shambles from ATC in Manila who did not realise they were dealing with two aircraft. We popped out of cloud to see the Airbus a short distance ahead descending through our flt level - they had been cleared to descend as ATC did not know we were there.

[A300Man]

Qatar are about to change the flight numbers of many of their infra gulf flights from three to four digits.

For example, the daily QR101 at 11:25am ex Dubai to Doha will soon become the QR1001. Not sure if this is related to your topic here and safety driven, or whether it's to aid the overburdened reservations system.

[irish777]

The point is that the airlines choose to file the flight number as the callsign - there is no requirement to do so and for example the BA1487 for example could have callsign SHT9E (Shuttle) just like Ryanair FR29 could be RYR7GP. Using alpha numerical callsigns is something that reduces the confusion factor. I believe UK NATS or even Eurocontrol have software that helps this process analysing for similar sounding callsigns in the same airspace at the same time.

[ferris]

Although you are never going to stop the (Rule3)
"Qatari439, descend to FL 250 by RASDI"
"Skydubai735, was that for us?"....

Why not just add a single letter at the end eg. Emirates7Y? Hard to confuse Emirates7Y with Emirates 17G/Emirates27P etc.etc.

Wasn't it trialled back in about 2004?

[Blohm]

I would assume that Emirates Seven tree Four somehow relates to Emirates Flight number 7, either at or having to go to the fourth tree nearby....etc etc.
Keep smiling folks.

[Rule3]

Good Idea Ferris

I remember when a particular airline put A or B after the alphanumerics on EVERY callsign.

Worked really well.

[Jetjock330]

Reminds me of this:

What's our vector, Victor????

[baghdadkiwi]

Take Baghdad ATC for example. They will only let gulf carriers transit their airspace using the commercial flight number as callsign

really?

my experience over the last 3 years is that they will refuse entry to an aircraft who is
a}not on the list, and/or
b}who have not paid their money to transit or land within an airfield in Iraq.

Nothing to do with call signs.......I could be wrong tho.

We just have an Iraq sup turn up beside us and say "that aircraft must remain clear".....again, nothing to do with call signs.

As an approach controller who has been seconded to area for a few months I basically work on South Sector. There is a huge number of call signs that have the same numbers but different airlines and same airlines with close numbers...if that makes sense. I have learnt very quickly to say the call sign twice in a transmission which takes very little time really but gets the right response.

Emirates seven two, emirates seven two contact......etc etc. Talking slowly and deliberately proves a success rate of almost 100%. There are times that someone is not listening or the wrong aircraft takes the change. Can't help that..it just happens.

Also as an ATCO if similar callsigns on Freq I always repeat it twice, first time to "perk" their ears, second time so they know its them.....I have found that I end up with very little......."were you calling xxx",or "was that for xxx", or "confirm that was for xxx"

just my 2 dinars worth .........again......

PS...Jetjock...I love that movie and must have seen it at least 10 times....

[Icarus]

@Rule3 - If your thinking Britannia, I believe it was not all flight numbers. Scheduled services, such as MANPMI (BY700/BY701) did not have the alpha/bravo suffix.

But then again, you may be referring to another airline!

[Panther 88]

Hey Baghdadkiwi. Better be careful, some on here will jump all in your mess kit and say you may be nonstandard in your R/T. they will equate you with some of those horrible U.S. controllers. The horror.

But no worries guys, the "working group" at EK is all over it (and has been for years).

[WhyByFlier]

Flight numbers are the callsigns in a way...

For instance, if your flight number is BA123 the callsign is speedbird 123.

Incorrect - that's the commercial call sign. In my company (an airline with 220 A319/320s) the ATC call sign is 90%+ of the time a different - alpha numeric - call sign.

[pilotday]

Oh the horror, the horror of US controllers.

Every time I go to U.K. I study the briefing requirements on radio communication which is different than Australia.

Every time I go to Australia, I review the briefing requirements of radio communications with is different than Africa.

Every time I go to Africa, I brief myself on radio communication procedures with is different than India.

And as always, I review American radio communication procedures as I am supposed to. No where in the OMA it requires me to bitch and complain about America when I have a hard time keeping up with the busiest airspace in the world. It only takes practice.

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publi...M/aim0402.html

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<Flight 74 or 734? "Emirates SEVEN FOUR" vs. "Emirates SEVEN tree FOUR">

I only just read this thread and I cannot believe it! How can those two callsigns possibly be confusing?

[Mr Good Cat]

<Flight 74 or 734? "Emirates SEVEN FOUR" vs. "Emirates SEVEN tree FOUR">

I only just read this thread and I cannot believe it! How can those two callsigns possibly be confusing?

As a well-paid union-protected government agency controller in a first-world country's primary gateway I would expect you to have the finest RT skills on the planet.

However, as a heavily-worked skipper flying sometimes for up to 22 hours with no decent rest and trying to understand third-world non-ICAO standard RT on a poor quality VHF or even HF radio transmitter... I think I can be excused for the odd moment of confusion?