EK; "if you don't like it, leave...oh..except when you all resign at once..."
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EK; "if you don't like it, leave...oh..except when you all resign at once..."
Latest from IFS....so many cabin crew have resigned recently, crew have now been told they have to put their name on a waiting list to resign.
That's what happens when you treat your staff so abysmally.
And how legal is this under the labour law?. Not that anyone in IFS management gives a toss about cabin crew rights. "Protect the business" (and their own bonuses) is the only law they abide by.
So many flight crew I know looking at other options now; will this directive be applied by flight ops eventually if things go south? Certainly trainers have been told if you resign, you'll be banned from training for the rest of your EK career.
I have been here quite some time, and have never seen moral so low.
That's what happens when you treat your staff so abysmally.
And how legal is this under the labour law?. Not that anyone in IFS management gives a toss about cabin crew rights. "Protect the business" (and their own bonuses) is the only law they abide by.
So many flight crew I know looking at other options now; will this directive be applied by flight ops eventually if things go south? Certainly trainers have been told if you resign, you'll be banned from training for the rest of your EK career.
I have been here quite some time, and have never seen moral so low.
Certainly trainers have been told if you resign, you'll be banned from training for the rest of your EK career.
Some 330/340 trainers left training to accelerate their transfer to the 380, believing they would get training positions on the 380 quicker than if they waited to be transferred as a trainer.
THEY have been told this will result in them NOT being allowed back into training.
For all other trainers, they are free to leave and would be welcomed back if needed in the future.
We're actually headed for a surplus of trainers, and trainers have been told if they want an indefinite sabbatical, they are more than welcome to do so.
Agree the FA situation is ludicrous.
Last edited by Wizofoz; 26th Jun 2013 at 07:10.
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Sorry Wizofoz, but I stand by my previous assertion that trainers have been told if they resign, they're out for good. The new VP flight training has made it quite clear. This despite, as you say, the upcoming surplus of trainers.
The current situation is; we'll screw you around as much as we like to "protect the business" but if you resign in protest, we'll screw you around even more.
Happened to a couple of B777 trainers going across to the 380 (despite the fact it was fleet who invited them to go across). Even (very disappointingly) MM mentioned the same at the last standards meeting...talking about trainers being "disloyal" if they resigned. What an insult..after years of pleas for trainers to "bear with us while we sort out the trainer shortage", only to be further shafted when things turn the other way. Numerous training standbys actually covering the fact that there aren't enough line guys to cover reserve, and now the latest plan to give trainers a month of reserve.
If you ever wanted to destroy all the good work of the training department in the past few years, then you couldn't do it quicker than the current management have achieved.
The current situation is; we'll screw you around as much as we like to "protect the business" but if you resign in protest, we'll screw you around even more.
Happened to a couple of B777 trainers going across to the 380 (despite the fact it was fleet who invited them to go across). Even (very disappointingly) MM mentioned the same at the last standards meeting...talking about trainers being "disloyal" if they resigned. What an insult..after years of pleas for trainers to "bear with us while we sort out the trainer shortage", only to be further shafted when things turn the other way. Numerous training standbys actually covering the fact that there aren't enough line guys to cover reserve, and now the latest plan to give trainers a month of reserve.
If you ever wanted to destroy all the good work of the training department in the past few years, then you couldn't do it quicker than the current management have achieved.
Last edited by Sheikhthedripsoff; 26th Jun 2013 at 07:55.
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You have an interesting view of life Longlander. You took the job of FO....are you an apologist for the company? Perhaps you took a command. Are you once again an apologist for the company? If there weren't any trainers you wouldn't have got either an FO position or an upgrade; so why is your FO or line captain position Ok, but a training position not?
I don't think the point of this this thread is to attack people who do training for a living; rather to address the shabby treatment that's happening to both CC and tech crew. I agree with Sheihk the drips. I think the trickle is about to turn to a flood. There's only so much you can take, and some jobs, CSA in particular, are looking more and more attractive to get out of the desert and somewhere back close to home.
I don't think the point of this this thread is to attack people who do training for a living; rather to address the shabby treatment that's happening to both CC and tech crew. I agree with Sheihk the drips. I think the trickle is about to turn to a flood. There's only so much you can take, and some jobs, CSA in particular, are looking more and more attractive to get out of the desert and somewhere back close to home.
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Sounds like people are about to start talking with their feet...
Ohh, I've flown with some previous trainers who were threatened if they left. This was a few months back, now there IS a surplus because the demand is down. Once the demand picks up, the slavery begins. Or the guys weren't telling the truth. I just remember thinking I'll never want to be a trainer here.
Ohh, I've flown with some previous trainers who were threatened if they left. This was a few months back, now there IS a surplus because the demand is down. Once the demand picks up, the slavery begins. Or the guys weren't telling the truth. I just remember thinking I'll never want to be a trainer here.
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That's what their CCM are telling them which is a threat and incorrect , not to mention against UAE law.
Have your CCM document that on paper and take it to the authorities when you leave.
If you want or need to leave don't be intimidated, you do have some rights.
Have your CCM document that on paper and take it to the authorities when you leave.
If you want or need to leave don't be intimidated, you do have some rights.
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Resignation Waitlist etc -malicious gossip
Relax, boys and girls. Checked with two separate senior IFS office people. No such instruction has been issued, verbally or in writing. Refusing to accept an employees' resignation is entirely contrary to principles of UAE Labour Law unless criminal, negligent or fraudulent behaviour on the part of the employee is involved and appropriate proceedings have been initiated or are imminent, according to a knowledgeable local HR person. And even then the burden of proof is onerous and lies with the "wronged" employer. Any legal people care to confirm?
Yet another piece of malicious rumour - but then this is a rumour based site I guess, by definition. Heavens knows where this one started though - Barasti last Friday night I'd guess
?
7B
Yet another piece of malicious rumour - but then this is a rumour based site I guess, by definition. Heavens knows where this one started though - Barasti last Friday night I'd guess
?7B
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Sheik!
Shocking!...I refuse to believe that your assertion is true. After all we have a couple of posters above who are in 'the inside' of the trng dept who know.
As always - whenever a scurrilous rumor like this develops I go straight to the source and ask...and lo and behold I saw two SNR Trng managers the other day and decided to ask them if what you are saying was true....
...only to remember that they were no longer the bosses...because they were fired...eh sorry - invited to reapply.
Still skulking around the training building....stand by for an update when I find a source...tough to tell who's in and who's out...won't be a minute
; >
f.
Shocking!...I refuse to believe that your assertion is true. After all we have a couple of posters above who are in 'the inside' of the trng dept who know.
As always - whenever a scurrilous rumor like this develops I go straight to the source and ask...and lo and behold I saw two SNR Trng managers the other day and decided to ask them if what you are saying was true....
...only to remember that they were no longer the bosses...because they were fired...eh sorry - invited to reapply.
Still skulking around the training building....stand by for an update when I find a source...tough to tell who's in and who's out...won't be a minute
; >
f.
Last edited by fliion; 26th Jun 2013 at 19:22.
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To clarify rumour vs truth....the trainer issue is the truth. I've personally spoken to three trainers who have moved or are moving to the 380..all have been told the same thing..they are out of training permanently...at least under the current regime. You can figure out for yourself whose policy that is.
Regarding the cabin crew situation; until I speak to a CC member who has personally been told that, then it remains second hand. However, do you honestly believe a member of IFS management would confirm to you that their CCMs are making threats to CC that are simply illegal? CCMs, and IFS management in general, work on the premise that very few crew will challenge them. If end of service dues are withheld, how can a 24year fight EK from Brazil or Korea? Nothing will be on paper..and you're certainly not going to get an acknowledgment from anybody in management about such a policy.
Regarding the cabin crew situation; until I speak to a CC member who has personally been told that, then it remains second hand. However, do you honestly believe a member of IFS management would confirm to you that their CCMs are making threats to CC that are simply illegal? CCMs, and IFS management in general, work on the premise that very few crew will challenge them. If end of service dues are withheld, how can a 24year fight EK from Brazil or Korea? Nothing will be on paper..and you're certainly not going to get an acknowledgment from anybody in management about such a policy.
STP,
But that's exactly what I said was the case- if you leave training to move to the A380 as a line Captain, you will not be asked back into training- you first say I'm wrong, then confirm exactly what I said was the case.
You implied that ANY trainer who leaves training has been told they will not be asked back.
That isn't the case.
Do you acknowledge that?
For what it's worth, I think it's a stupid policy- but that still doesn't make you original post correct.
But that's exactly what I said was the case- if you leave training to move to the A380 as a line Captain, you will not be asked back into training- you first say I'm wrong, then confirm exactly what I said was the case.
You implied that ANY trainer who leaves training has been told they will not be asked back.
That isn't the case.
Do you acknowledge that?
For what it's worth, I think it's a stupid policy- but that still doesn't make you original post correct.
Last edited by Wizofoz; 27th Jun 2013 at 09:59.
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If there weren't any trainers you wouldn't have got either an FO position or an upgrade; so why is your FO or line captain position Ok, but a training position not?
No FO job is no job, no trainer position is still a job. Jobs might be out there, but to give up the one here and find another is not as easy as some pretend. We need to feed families. To give up training is only losing a decorative star and not even much less in the pocket.
So no comparison here!
If all trainers would quit, there's still Alteon and Airbus Training, they would be more than happy to provide it! They would however not take as much bs from EK and it would cost them heaploads more and would be some operation!
So basically you trainers are providing the company a service. And you let them treat you like s#!t.
So to aks us to feel grateful, that's some stretch.
Looking at the situation it is really hard to keep up respect for you guys ...... no hard feelings, but that's how most of the line-guys think actually.
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So basically you trainers are providing the company a service. And you let them treat you like s#!t.
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The Trainers leaving/New Trainers joining cycle has been going on since the mid 2000s.
Back then EK introduced a creative accounting scheme called Payment per Duty for trainers which amounted to less pay and poor quality rosters. This directly lead to many resignations from training.
During the fallout from this a trickle of replacement people did join training including the obviously Australian poster on this thread but not enough to keep the training program running. The company outsourced some training but this cost more than the savings they made by paying the trainers less. They conceded that Payment per Duty didn't work and improved Training remuneration to the point where they recently got the Training Captain/SFI numbers back to close to where they should be. That point is where they are now so it's clearly a good time for them to start gnawing away at the financial and lifestyle rewards again.
Common sense and clear thought is a (large) part of good Training. It's my theory that the people who most want to Train at EK may be the least suited to do the job.
Back then EK introduced a creative accounting scheme called Payment per Duty for trainers which amounted to less pay and poor quality rosters. This directly lead to many resignations from training.
During the fallout from this a trickle of replacement people did join training including the obviously Australian poster on this thread but not enough to keep the training program running. The company outsourced some training but this cost more than the savings they made by paying the trainers less. They conceded that Payment per Duty didn't work and improved Training remuneration to the point where they recently got the Training Captain/SFI numbers back to close to where they should be. That point is where they are now so it's clearly a good time for them to start gnawing away at the financial and lifestyle rewards again.
Common sense and clear thought is a (large) part of good Training. It's my theory that the people who most want to Train at EK may be the least suited to do the job.
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In my limited exposure to our training dept I have been both singularly impressed and utterly horrified, so the statement based on my exposure
Is frighteningly accurate, and of course utterly understandable in the context of the culture of this place.
Common sense and clear thought is a (large) part of good Training. It's my theory that the people who most want to Train at EK may be the least suited to do the job.
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Firstly, how did this post turn into EK Instructor bashing?
Secondly, though there can be no doubt that there are some who do the training department a disservice, I would like to think that they are the minority.
There are some fantastic guys working hard and under difficult circumstances to try and genuinely provide a good service to our customers the line pilot. As always it's the few that ruin it for the majority. I think MM has done a superb job at "weeding" out the less desirables and he has eluded to more of the same to come.
Secondly, though there can be no doubt that there are some who do the training department a disservice, I would like to think that they are the minority.
There are some fantastic guys working hard and under difficult circumstances to try and genuinely provide a good service to our customers the line pilot. As always it's the few that ruin it for the majority. I think MM has done a superb job at "weeding" out the less desirables and he has eluded to more of the same to come.