No holding fuel?!
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I'm chuckling at my "callsign" here as I'm about to post a reply....
Firstly, on fuel situations when holding (or not, or can't)....inbound to OMDB you are either given the STAR arrival, some delay vectors or the hold. I'll focus on the hold. There seems to be some debate about what holding fuel one should have when flying into the UAE. AIC says one thing yet company policy may differ depending on whether you're a local operator or not. I'm not going into that. What I am going to ask is this....Once given an EAT, (which I give regardless of holding time as I think this information is too important to pilots to omit, at what point does one:
a) decide to go to their alternate ;
b) arrive at the situation where you must declare a fuel emergency (given that point (a) was somehow missed);
c) declare PAN PAN or MAYDAY?
The above terms seem to be misinterpreted within the pilot community.
I have worked the DESDI hold for quite some time and all too often pilots, after lets say being given a 45min holding delay, have told me that they can only hold for one more round and must declare a fuel emergency. I just can't fathom why some pilots allow themselves to get into this situation.
I know how frustrating it is when OMDB decide to change the spacing requirements on a whim and throws all EAT's out the window. This is mainly down to individual performance on some crews in OMDB. A clear example the other night was RWY12L, 1 a/c abeam DXB on downwind, 1 a/c 30nm behind in trail, 2 a/c on final spaced 9nm apart (heavy behind medium). No excuses for this diabolical controlling at this stage of the game. It's too busy and I think that if you can't handle the traffic, you need to think about your role in the game! But, we do try and manage the EAT's as best we can at DESDI. Some Supervisors are very pro-active at the ACC and will co-ordinate a better flow of traffic into OMDB with their counterpart at Approach based on where the bulk of the traffic is at any given time.
More simulation is expected to take place soon on the new arrivals manager and hopefully this will help alleviate the situation along with the new OMDB STAR's as long as they are put to good use.
Firstly, on fuel situations when holding (or not, or can't)....inbound to OMDB you are either given the STAR arrival, some delay vectors or the hold. I'll focus on the hold. There seems to be some debate about what holding fuel one should have when flying into the UAE. AIC says one thing yet company policy may differ depending on whether you're a local operator or not. I'm not going into that. What I am going to ask is this....Once given an EAT, (which I give regardless of holding time as I think this information is too important to pilots to omit, at what point does one:
a) decide to go to their alternate ;
b) arrive at the situation where you must declare a fuel emergency (given that point (a) was somehow missed);
c) declare PAN PAN or MAYDAY?
The above terms seem to be misinterpreted within the pilot community.
I have worked the DESDI hold for quite some time and all too often pilots, after lets say being given a 45min holding delay, have told me that they can only hold for one more round and must declare a fuel emergency. I just can't fathom why some pilots allow themselves to get into this situation.
I know how frustrating it is when OMDB decide to change the spacing requirements on a whim and throws all EAT's out the window. This is mainly down to individual performance on some crews in OMDB. A clear example the other night was RWY12L, 1 a/c abeam DXB on downwind, 1 a/c 30nm behind in trail, 2 a/c on final spaced 9nm apart (heavy behind medium). No excuses for this diabolical controlling at this stage of the game. It's too busy and I think that if you can't handle the traffic, you need to think about your role in the game! But, we do try and manage the EAT's as best we can at DESDI. Some Supervisors are very pro-active at the ACC and will co-ordinate a better flow of traffic into OMDB with their counterpart at Approach based on where the bulk of the traffic is at any given time. More simulation is expected to take place soon on the new arrivals manager and hopefully this will help alleviate the situation along with the new OMDB STAR's as long as they are put to good use.
Last edited by DESDI OR BUST; 19th Aug 2012 at 13:09. Reason: addition to point b
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Coming back, full circle....been an interesting thread. The problem, as I see it anyway, is that you have enough - just enough - fuel to commit and the company gives you no more with their statcon. All fine and dandy and you end up, as the previous poster says, knowing what fuel to leave the hold with for your alternate and what fuel you need to leave the desdi hold with to leave such that you arrive with final reserve (or, as I prefer, final reserve plus a 'sneeze factor'). You take your choice, committing as we did to DXB and then you are suddenly sweating because somebody turns up with no holding fuel and gets priority! No that is a game changer! The question should be asked straight away, what is your alternate? Why have you no fuel?
I do feel that we, as pilots, need to communicate the fact that we are about to commit to destination so that the controller knows that he will end up with multiple maydays on his hands potentially should he then start changing the rules........
I do feel that we, as pilots, need to communicate the fact that we are about to commit to destination so that the controller knows that he will end up with multiple maydays on his hands potentially should he then start changing the rules........
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I agree with captainsmiffy. I am sure ATC would like a heads up on aircraft about to commit. It would be interesting to know how many do each night in DXB. As I understand it you can commit without an EAT anyway if two independent runways are available etc which is the case most of the time at DXB.
The facts as they stand though are that we don't have to mention a thing until we " might" land below final reserve. The new ICAO directive is to call " Minimum Fuel". I would have thought endurance in minutes might be a useful piece of information as well?
The facts as they stand though are that we don't have to mention a thing until we " might" land below final reserve. The new ICAO directive is to call " Minimum Fuel". I would have thought endurance in minutes might be a useful piece of information as well?
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As I understand it you can commit without an EAT anyway if two independent runways are available etc which is the case most of the time at DXB.
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What is your problem?
- Just take whatever the untrained Lido-button-pusher gives you on the Flpl.
- Divert if you don't have enough fuel to hold for the ETA, if any.
- Yell 'Minimum Fuel' if you had enough fuel first, but burnt it in the hold passed the ETA and/or the over-extensive vectoring.
- Yell 'Mayday' when you see you'll get below Min Res.
There is not a big risk in doing what the seat-cushion-farters decided we should do. And when enough people did so, things will change.
They will definitely not change by complaining here or rocking each others cradle.
We are not in charge and the ones that are have no clue.
They need numbers. Let's giv'em.
- Just take whatever the untrained Lido-button-pusher gives you on the Flpl.
- Divert if you don't have enough fuel to hold for the ETA, if any.
- Yell 'Minimum Fuel' if you had enough fuel first, but burnt it in the hold passed the ETA and/or the over-extensive vectoring.
- Yell 'Mayday' when you see you'll get below Min Res.
There is not a big risk in doing what the seat-cushion-farters decided we should do. And when enough people did so, things will change.
They will definitely not change by complaining here or rocking each others cradle.
We are not in charge and the ones that are have no clue.
They need numbers. Let's giv'em.
Last edited by glofish; 23rd Aug 2012 at 12:40.
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It's worth keeping in mind that as soon as you get airborne you are committed to land somewhere... When holding its either the destination or if you don't like that idea, then you commit yourself to the alternate. Personally I would rather it be the destination of which I have some idea of what is going on with the flow etc and not the alternate about which I would know close to nothing...
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It would be interesting to know from ATC guys on this forum to tell what exactly happens after such an incident. We all might wanna be the one getting priority landing but how does DXB ATC handle you or your company is what would be more interesting to know.
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Glofish,
i think the problem is that no one WANTS to divert from destination (esp home: get-home-itis syndrome).
if given the choice of commiting to dest or diverting on route/in hold, i would say 95% of people would rather commit.
i think the problem is that no one WANTS to divert from destination (esp home: get-home-itis syndrome).
if given the choice of commiting to dest or diverting on route/in hold, i would say 95% of people would rather commit.
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The nice thing about committing is that there are precisely zero 'requirements' for the decision. It's down to the Captain to decide if it's prudent in his judgement alone. This is a very welcome return to first principles in an age riddled with such absurdities as the soi-disant "smart" runway system.
