EK 380 Diversion to Ottawa and Low Fuel Emergency
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Recently did a US ULR, overburn by 3 tonnes or so, all with optimised winds levels and practically a single digit CI, ASR duly filed, only to be met with the response "that's what the contingency is for"
Guys I'm flying with now are annotating on the VR and the OFP specific reasons for extra gas, and have included comments such as "incorrect runway used at planning stage...1.5 tonnes added to account for increased track miles" etc etc
Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Guys I'm flying with now are annotating on the VR and the OFP specific reasons for extra gas, and have included comments such as "incorrect runway used at planning stage...1.5 tonnes added to account for increased track miles" etc etc
Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
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The 10% Society
My last 10% Society letter arrived from one of our stars in junior management, suggesting I may in future like to consider how much extra fuel I load. Bearing in mind the carnage of the previous night's rush hour, when five company aircraft diverted due to low fuel state, there could indeed be only one answer.........
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Pilotday
Grow some bloody balls and stop with this complaining ****. If you're not happy with the runway and you think you'll need an extra 500 kgs, stick an extra 500 on! It really isn't difficult but you're getting your knickers in a twist over nothing. I've elected to commit twice since the policy was incorporated. During the same time, i've diverted once because I didn't want to commit. Neither situation was an issue and it's what you get paid for... to make a decision!
A genuine question if I may. Are you really in the left seat?
Grow some bloody balls and stop with this complaining ****. If you're not happy with the runway and you think you'll need an extra 500 kgs, stick an extra 500 on! It really isn't difficult but you're getting your knickers in a twist over nothing. I've elected to commit twice since the policy was incorporated. During the same time, i've diverted once because I didn't want to commit. Neither situation was an issue and it's what you get paid for... to make a decision!
A genuine question if I may. Are you really in the left seat?
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Don
apart from the fact that we rarely get the 'entire and absolutely correct' facts here on prune, I stated clearly that I am not blaming the crew, but merely opening the discussion about the emergency declaration, which affects the fellow aviators in the air (not the EK fuel policy and its interpretation).
Having said that, I opened my case taking into consideration what A380driver published further up, citing the AH. This seemed precise enough to make my point without having to bear the lame blame of 'assuming facts' again.
apart from the fact that we rarely get the 'entire and absolutely correct' facts here on prune, I stated clearly that I am not blaming the crew, but merely opening the discussion about the emergency declaration, which affects the fellow aviators in the air (not the EK fuel policy and its interpretation).
Having said that, I opened my case taking into consideration what A380driver published further up, citing the AH. This seemed precise enough to make my point without having to bear the lame blame of 'assuming facts' again.
The crew decided to divert to Ottawa declaring emergency indicating they might need to cut into their final fuel reserve of 30 minutes in case of any delays. The aircraft climbed to FL230 enroute to Ottawa,on approach to Ottawa the crew reported 6.3 tons of fuel/14000 lbs of fuel on board and cancelled their emergency under the condition that they were vectored directly for a RNAV approach to runway 14. The aircraft landed safely on runway 14 about 50 minutes after aborting the approach in Toronto with more fuel than final reserve remaining
Last edited by glofish; 9th Jun 2012 at 16:59.
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fish,
I rather declare an emergency and land with more than 30 min of fuel than too late, I am sure the pax will thank me for that, if you want to be a hero be my guest.
I rather declare an emergency and land with more than 30 min of fuel than too late, I am sure the pax will thank me for that, if you want to be a hero be my guest.
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@Al
That's what everyone is saying here, if you read correctly ......
@Gore
The pax may thank you, your blood pressure as well.
But what I am saying for the umpteenth time:
If you are in a hold and i.e. committed and some buddies around your yell precautionary emergencies, get priorities and therefore push YOU into a pan or emergency situation, subsequently your buddies cancel their emergencies, land (fuel)fat dumb and happy and leave you dealing with a fuel shortage you wouldn't have had if everyone played a fair game.
Situational awareness is not about your flight only, at least the way I understand professional aviation.
Come back and post once you have witnessed such a situation, you'll sound slightly different.
What I expect is not only sound fuel management, but an even game and everyone playing by the same rules.
Do you understand my point now?
That's what everyone is saying here, if you read correctly ......
@Gore
The pax may thank you, your blood pressure as well.
But what I am saying for the umpteenth time:
If you are in a hold and i.e. committed and some buddies around your yell precautionary emergencies, get priorities and therefore push YOU into a pan or emergency situation, subsequently your buddies cancel their emergencies, land (fuel)fat dumb and happy and leave you dealing with a fuel shortage you wouldn't have had if everyone played a fair game.
Situational awareness is not about your flight only, at least the way I understand professional aviation.
Come back and post once you have witnessed such a situation, you'll sound slightly different.
What I expect is not only sound fuel management, but an even game and everyone playing by the same rules.
Do you understand my point now?
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I just despair!
The Company doesn't use the commit to destination policy, YOU DO! Let's make it easy. The fuel policy can actually be summarised into one, very short paragraph;
'Land somewhere, with your 30 mins reserve intact. If you think you'll land with less, declare a pan. When you get to 30 minutes, declare a Mayday.'
So, decide before you disconnect the bowser how much you need. If you need more, take it. If there's no reason to take extra, don't. What you then do with that fuel, whether enroute, at destination, Dubai, or otherwise, it matters bugger all. Just make sensible command decisions based on safety and efficiency, in that order. That way you can justify wherever you end up landing.
Come on guys, for professionals, some of you are starting to make us all look rather stupid.
The Company doesn't use the commit to destination policy, YOU DO! Let's make it easy. The fuel policy can actually be summarised into one, very short paragraph;
'Land somewhere, with your 30 mins reserve intact. If you think you'll land with less, declare a pan. When you get to 30 minutes, declare a Mayday.'
So, decide before you disconnect the bowser how much you need. If you need more, take it. If there's no reason to take extra, don't. What you then do with that fuel, whether enroute, at destination, Dubai, or otherwise, it matters bugger all. Just make sensible command decisions based on safety and efficiency, in that order. That way you can justify wherever you end up landing.
Come on guys, for professionals, some of you are starting to make us all look rather stupid.
Last edited by BYMONEK; 10th Jun 2012 at 05:41.
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I think these guys thought they were going to land with less than reserves, so they correctly notified all and sundry.
Upon getting closer and realising that they weren't going to need it (subject to priority for the approach) they cancelled. Once again correct.
Upon getting closer and realising that they weren't going to need it (subject to priority for the approach) they cancelled. Once again correct.
If you THINK you will, declare pan, if you KNOW you will, declare emergency.
If you think you will and declare emergency, it's like jumping the queue a bit, at least the way I see it.
As to the committing policy, I second bymonek.
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Contacted has summarised it rather nicely. If you still don't understand how to apply the fuel policy and what it's trying to achieve, then you're in the wrong job!
Harry
Harry
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Ex A380-800 driver
Your response to Contacted is trying to say what, exactly?
Unless you're prepared to take an extra 10 tonnes everywhere you go, there will always be situations in which you, the captain, are going to have to make decisions regarding your aircraft's fuel state. This is especially true at airports such as Dubai during peak flow.
As I've said before, if you need to declare a pan, do so. Hopefully as more and more CFP's are despatched using StatCon, the amount of aircraft using pan calls will be minimised. I really think you're over dramatising this issue. Only twice have I ever heard a pan call into Dubai, one wasn't EK, and at least 90% of my flights arrive with more than alternate and reserve remaining. Maybe if you cruised in econ, you might arrive with a bit more!
If you understand the policy as well as you claim, I can't understand why this debate is still going?
Your response to Contacted is trying to say what, exactly?
Unless you're prepared to take an extra 10 tonnes everywhere you go, there will always be situations in which you, the captain, are going to have to make decisions regarding your aircraft's fuel state. This is especially true at airports such as Dubai during peak flow.
As I've said before, if you need to declare a pan, do so. Hopefully as more and more CFP's are despatched using StatCon, the amount of aircraft using pan calls will be minimised. I really think you're over dramatising this issue. Only twice have I ever heard a pan call into Dubai, one wasn't EK, and at least 90% of my flights arrive with more than alternate and reserve remaining. Maybe if you cruised in econ, you might arrive with a bit more!
If you understand the policy as well as you claim, I can't understand why this debate is still going?
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EK380 Diverson to Ottawa
Good Going EK...................... 
Three Birds with One Stone:
1. First Landing by a A380 at Ottawa Airport
2. Free Publicity and Promotion of A380 to all the inhabitants of Ottawa
3. Made a point to the Canadian Govt
Three Birds with One Stone:
1. First Landing by a A380 at Ottawa Airport
2. Free Publicity and Promotion of A380 to all the inhabitants of Ottawa
3. Made a point to the Canadian Govt
