Saudia Arabia
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Saudia Arabia
Hey Guys,
Got a job offer in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and would like some input for those who operate there, fly there and or have lived/visited there.
What is aviation like? Living situation? Safety etc....
Any input is greatly appreciated
Got a job offer in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia and would like some input for those who operate there, fly there and or have lived/visited there.
What is aviation like? Living situation? Safety etc....
Any input is greatly appreciated
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Riyadh
I just finished 3 years in Riyadh. It is a stressful place. Driving in traffic there is the most consistently dangerous thing I have ever done, and I have driven in many undeveloped countries. Working under Saudi management is not easy. In my company, any time any simple normal thing is to be expected to be done, you can be sure it will be messed up.
To give you an idea, please let me indulge in a short rant to illustrate. The plane tickets from the USA my company booked had me arriving in Atlanta at 3pm, and departing JFK at 6pm to Riyadh, with no connection from Atlanta to JFK booked. Although my arrival time in Riyadh was known since they booked my ticket themselves, there was no one waiting to pick me up at the airport at 1am. When I called for pickup and the driver finally arrived, I asked to be taken to the accommodation called for in my contract, only to find out there was nothing arraigned, not even a hotel room. I got my own hotel room, and eventually the company moved me into an apartment. But instead of a flat in the diplomatic quarter promised in my contract, they attempted to put me in a building with no real security, populated by Yemenis, Bangladeshis, etc. I had the only white face in sight, and felt I could expect Al Qaeda to kick in my door at any time. I had to print out a security warning from my embassy before I could get permission for better digs. And then, of course, I had to find my own housing - not easy when all the decent compounds in Riyadh have a waiting list of over a year.
I hope you will be flying with other western pilots, because a good percentage of the Saudi pilots were hired because of their family connections (wasta) instead of for their ability as pilots. A few of the Saudis I flew with grew into pretty good flight crew members, but more than a few were downright dangerous. I was routinely dispatched with copilots who still had wet ink on their commercial pilot licenses, and who had no business in anything bigger than a Cessna 172 (if even).
There is an unwritten but pervasive rule where I worked - Saudis are always right. To go against this rule is to get pushed out of the company. I recall a time when I was called in to run some maintenance checks, because a Saudi captain had squawked 3 different aircraft for the same problem, on the same day. It turned out he didn't know how to run the preflight checklist properly, and squawked what were normal engine indications. I then had to fly a test flight on 3 aircraft to clear the squawks. I don't know how many thousands of dollars flying around for no reason like this cost, but it was more than a few. The same captain hot-started 2 engines in a month. Later, I sat with Ops and maintenance personnel and explained what happened, and suggested that the captain in question should be advised to consult with maintenance about any perceived problems before putting pen to paper and grounding aircraft. One Saudi captain present at this discussion bemoaned the fact that anyone was listening to me, and said in Arabic that is was simple - no matter what the validity of what I was saying, no one should listen to me, and should instead support the other captain because he was a Saudi.
Other problems I have seen or been told of by trusted copilots who were present were Saudis completely and obliviously mis-programming the FMS, loading approaches for the wrong airport, exceeding engine limitations, proceeding 200 feet below VOR minimums in the soup and then flying off in some random direction on the missed, flying right into severe weather when a slight course change could have avoided the buildup (resulting in bouncing a passenger off the ceiling and knocking him unconscious), inadvertanly and repeatedly turning on the autopilot when I have called for the yaw damper, etc.
They only good thing about working in Riyadh is the paycheck, and if it is not substantially more than what you might earn elsewhere, I would advise you to look for another option.
To give you an idea, please let me indulge in a short rant to illustrate. The plane tickets from the USA my company booked had me arriving in Atlanta at 3pm, and departing JFK at 6pm to Riyadh, with no connection from Atlanta to JFK booked. Although my arrival time in Riyadh was known since they booked my ticket themselves, there was no one waiting to pick me up at the airport at 1am. When I called for pickup and the driver finally arrived, I asked to be taken to the accommodation called for in my contract, only to find out there was nothing arraigned, not even a hotel room. I got my own hotel room, and eventually the company moved me into an apartment. But instead of a flat in the diplomatic quarter promised in my contract, they attempted to put me in a building with no real security, populated by Yemenis, Bangladeshis, etc. I had the only white face in sight, and felt I could expect Al Qaeda to kick in my door at any time. I had to print out a security warning from my embassy before I could get permission for better digs. And then, of course, I had to find my own housing - not easy when all the decent compounds in Riyadh have a waiting list of over a year.
I hope you will be flying with other western pilots, because a good percentage of the Saudi pilots were hired because of their family connections (wasta) instead of for their ability as pilots. A few of the Saudis I flew with grew into pretty good flight crew members, but more than a few were downright dangerous. I was routinely dispatched with copilots who still had wet ink on their commercial pilot licenses, and who had no business in anything bigger than a Cessna 172 (if even).
There is an unwritten but pervasive rule where I worked - Saudis are always right. To go against this rule is to get pushed out of the company. I recall a time when I was called in to run some maintenance checks, because a Saudi captain had squawked 3 different aircraft for the same problem, on the same day. It turned out he didn't know how to run the preflight checklist properly, and squawked what were normal engine indications. I then had to fly a test flight on 3 aircraft to clear the squawks. I don't know how many thousands of dollars flying around for no reason like this cost, but it was more than a few. The same captain hot-started 2 engines in a month. Later, I sat with Ops and maintenance personnel and explained what happened, and suggested that the captain in question should be advised to consult with maintenance about any perceived problems before putting pen to paper and grounding aircraft. One Saudi captain present at this discussion bemoaned the fact that anyone was listening to me, and said in Arabic that is was simple - no matter what the validity of what I was saying, no one should listen to me, and should instead support the other captain because he was a Saudi.
Other problems I have seen or been told of by trusted copilots who were present were Saudis completely and obliviously mis-programming the FMS, loading approaches for the wrong airport, exceeding engine limitations, proceeding 200 feet below VOR minimums in the soup and then flying off in some random direction on the missed, flying right into severe weather when a slight course change could have avoided the buildup (resulting in bouncing a passenger off the ceiling and knocking him unconscious), inadvertanly and repeatedly turning on the autopilot when I have called for the yaw damper, etc.
They only good thing about working in Riyadh is the paycheck, and if it is not substantially more than what you might earn elsewhere, I would advise you to look for another option.
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Hey Wingnut,
Everything you say could be true, "and more". I would like to point out that when I worked in my first overseas assignment, in a country that is hot and miserable and just as backward as Saudi (Named the Republic of Texas), I had the very same problems. To read my rant, just take yours and do a find/replace "Saudi" with "Idiot son of management company owner". Find/Replace "Family connection" with "Goes to Baptist Church"
- Things aren't perfect anywhere. Be happy, cash your paycheck, update your resume!
FR
Oh, in Texas and Saudi, you're much better off being helpful, grateful, and trying to fit in rather than ridicule them.
FR
Everything you say could be true, "and more". I would like to point out that when I worked in my first overseas assignment, in a country that is hot and miserable and just as backward as Saudi (Named the Republic of Texas), I had the very same problems. To read my rant, just take yours and do a find/replace "Saudi" with "Idiot son of management company owner". Find/Replace "Family connection" with "Goes to Baptist Church"
- Things aren't perfect anywhere. Be happy, cash your paycheck, update your resume!
FR
Oh, in Texas and Saudi, you're much better off being helpful, grateful, and trying to fit in rather than ridicule them.
FR
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To answer your question Rasec,
1. Saudi is frikkin HOT. Gas is about 45 US cents a gallon.
2. Life seems very subdued, people are much more calm, you almost never see people lose their temper. But be careful, that doesn't mean they are unaffected when insulted.
3. Flying is a mixed bag, depending on where you are and who you fly.
4. Violence in any form is rare. The state department has a page for deaths by country. If I remember correctly, most in Saudi are from traffic accidents followed by suicides.
5. Live in a compound!!
6. Be friendly. Keep your mouth shut until you consider how others will (or could) interpret what it is that you are saying.
... So take the job, be nice, and things will be just fine!
FR
1. Saudi is frikkin HOT. Gas is about 45 US cents a gallon.
2. Life seems very subdued, people are much more calm, you almost never see people lose their temper. But be careful, that doesn't mean they are unaffected when insulted.
3. Flying is a mixed bag, depending on where you are and who you fly.
4. Violence in any form is rare. The state department has a page for deaths by country. If I remember correctly, most in Saudi are from traffic accidents followed by suicides.
5. Live in a compound!!
6. Be friendly. Keep your mouth shut until you consider how others will (or could) interpret what it is that you are saying.
... So take the job, be nice, and things will be just fine!
FR
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The foreigner is ALWAYS wrong.
No legal system that protect the infidels.
You risk having your salary outstanding for months at end in the hope that you will resign and forfeit your dues. There are stories from NAS in this forum that you can look up that will make your neck hair rise. There are many more, but do your research.
If it hits the fan, as it did with me in 2003, you WILL be a target. I was pretty much 1-2 minutes from tasting the lead when I turned around upon hearing the shooting in Khobar.
However, most reputable companies are OK and they treat you well.
Never forget that the sponsorship system means that you ARE someones property an can be treated as such.
No legal system that protect the infidels.
You risk having your salary outstanding for months at end in the hope that you will resign and forfeit your dues. There are stories from NAS in this forum that you can look up that will make your neck hair rise. There are many more, but do your research.
If it hits the fan, as it did with me in 2003, you WILL be a target. I was pretty much 1-2 minutes from tasting the lead when I turned around upon hearing the shooting in Khobar.
However, most reputable companies are OK and they treat you well.
Never forget that the sponsorship system means that you ARE someones property an can be treated as such.
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There is no single answer, it all depends on who you work for, where you live, what your job is, and your colleagues..... Some will love the place, others tolerate it for the money, and others call it home 
It's a fun place to fly if your aircraft has a good AC.
Are you sure about that?
Mutt
It's a fun place to fly if your aircraft has a good AC.
The foreigner is ALWAYS wrong.
Mutt
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The foreigner is ALWAYS wrong
Yup pretty much.
If you have any friends involved in a court case, care accident, camel accident etc. who's been left off the hook immediately I'd be very stunned to know, but yet again there are occasions when lightning came out of the blue.
If you have any friends involved in a court case, care accident, camel accident etc. who's been left off the hook immediately I'd be very stunned to know, but yet again there are occasions when lightning came out of the blue.
, right?
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It used to that way, especially with car accidents, but considering that the foreigner usually had car insurance, it always made sense to admit full responsibility and have the insurance company pay. But now that appears to be changing.
Some of the largest foreign companies are breaking their relationships with local agents and becoming standalone companies, this isnt something that would happen if they felt they were not going to get a fair legal system.
The legal system itself is attempting to comply with the requirements of WTO membership to the extent that Saudi's no longer believe that they will automatically win in the local courts.
The still have a long way to go before the word of a chambermaid is taken over that of the IMF chief. But give a "little" credit where it's due
Mutt
Some of the largest foreign companies are breaking their relationships with local agents and becoming standalone companies, this isnt something that would happen if they felt they were not going to get a fair legal system.
The legal system itself is attempting to comply with the requirements of WTO membership to the extent that Saudi's no longer believe that they will automatically win in the local courts.
The still have a long way to go before the word of a chambermaid is taken over that of the IMF chief. But give a "little" credit where it's due
Mutt
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Hi Fack5,
What Mutt said is truest statement: "There is no single answer" however, I stand by my previous post.
I'm in Saudi right now. It is true that some small minority of "guest workers" are treated badly. This is also true in Texas and California and Florida and New York and Dubai. I have been treated much better here than at most of the charter companies I've worked at in the USA in the past.
I believe we have been talking about how PILOTS are treated here in the Kingdom, not maids. And I never said that Saudis were "broad minded", that would be inaccurate.
So point out all your sensational acts, make inflammatory statements, and tell everyone to RUN. If I were offered a job in Caanes, sure, I might take it, Saudi is not like living on the Rivera, but all in all, it's not bad as long as you remember that it is what it is. You sound like your typical pissed off Eremites airbus guy. If you hate it so much, why don't you quit?
FR
What Mutt said is truest statement: "There is no single answer" however, I stand by my previous post.
I'm in Saudi right now. It is true that some small minority of "guest workers" are treated badly. This is also true in Texas and California and Florida and New York and Dubai. I have been treated much better here than at most of the charter companies I've worked at in the USA in the past.
I believe we have been talking about how PILOTS are treated here in the Kingdom, not maids. And I never said that Saudis were "broad minded", that would be inaccurate.
So point out all your sensational acts, make inflammatory statements, and tell everyone to RUN. If I were offered a job in Caanes, sure, I might take it, Saudi is not like living on the Rivera, but all in all, it's not bad as long as you remember that it is what it is. You sound like your typical pissed off Eremites airbus guy. If you hate it so much, why don't you quit?
FR
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Well if you read the holy text at night you'd probably be safe. However, an acquaintance of mine and a vivid visitor to the Ritz in Bahrain was given the following.
Read and make your decision.
GULF DAILY NEWS » Voice of Bahrain
GULF DAILY NEWS » Voice of Bahrain
Now, if I was offered 500k, well it'd be hard to turn it down but for a meager 100k there are many other opportunities in the world to pursue.
Also remember where the most famous organization - Q - comes from. Coincidence? Again make up your mind.
mutt you probably have been here longer than my 15 years but it becomes a little bit like the frog. Put it in hot water - it'll jump out. Put it in cold and turn up the heat slowly. It will boil nicely.
Read and make your decision.
GULF DAILY NEWS » Voice of Bahrain
GULF DAILY NEWS » Voice of Bahrain
Now, if I was offered 500k, well it'd be hard to turn it down but for a meager 100k there are many other opportunities in the world to pursue.
Also remember where the most famous organization - Q - comes from. Coincidence? Again make up your mind.
mutt you probably have been here longer than my 15 years but it becomes a little bit like the frog. Put it in hot water - it'll jump out. Put it in cold and turn up the heat slowly. It will boil nicely.
