Emirates layover destinations and bidding system
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Emirates layover destinations and bidding system
Hi. I've been invited to an assessment and have a couple of questions.
I've been going through many of the EK threads but have not found any list of which medium/long haul destinations are layover and which are turnarounds. I found on another site but that info was more than 5 years old..
Is there a set length for the sector, i.e 6h or something, that determines whether there are 2 crew overnighting or 3-4 crew turnaround? For example, is HAM or CPH an overnight?
What seems to be the most preferred type of routes people are bidding for? I mean, if you'd prefer ULH, what are the chances of getting many of that? Or if you'd prefer to be back at base and bid for that, does it tend to happen? I understand that depends on type, which group you're in at the time and seniority etc but in general, what seems to be the most popular among the crew?
Cheers!
I've been going through many of the EK threads but have not found any list of which medium/long haul destinations are layover and which are turnarounds. I found on another site but that info was more than 5 years old..
Is there a set length for the sector, i.e 6h or something, that determines whether there are 2 crew overnighting or 3-4 crew turnaround? For example, is HAM or CPH an overnight?
What seems to be the most preferred type of routes people are bidding for? I mean, if you'd prefer ULH, what are the chances of getting many of that? Or if you'd prefer to be back at base and bid for that, does it tend to happen? I understand that depends on type, which group you're in at the time and seniority etc but in general, what seems to be the most popular among the crew?
Cheers!
We don't do augmented crew turn-around, so anything that can't be done under the FTLs as a turn-around with 2 crew is an overnight.
The longest turn-arounds are Nairobi, Athens and Dhaka. The shortest night-stop flights are Dhaka and Nairobi at times they aren't legal as a turn around!
People who have a good handle on the bidding system seem to be able to get a good amount of the type of flying they like in their top 2 or 3 bid groups. In the bottom couple, well, you do you share of the scut work like every-one else!!
Getting particular trips on particular days, or particular days off can be hard, but if you put in a more general bid stacked towards a particular region or type of flying (e.g. ULR, States, Australia, Europe) you'll get a good amount of that type of flying.
The longest turn-arounds are Nairobi, Athens and Dhaka. The shortest night-stop flights are Dhaka and Nairobi at times they aren't legal as a turn around!
People who have a good handle on the bidding system seem to be able to get a good amount of the type of flying they like in their top 2 or 3 bid groups. In the bottom couple, well, you do you share of the scut work like every-one else!!
Getting particular trips on particular days, or particular days off can be hard, but if you put in a more general bid stacked towards a particular region or type of flying (e.g. ULR, States, Australia, Europe) you'll get a good amount of that type of flying.
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As a general rule, any flight over 4 1/2 hours will be a layover. Usually 24 hrs as most services are daily.
Any flight around the 10-12 hour mark will be a 3 pilot crew, anything more will have 4 pilots.
The longer ULH flights have 48 hr layovers (SFO,LAX,IAH).
There are a few exceptions depending on departure times, length of previous duty, number of pilots etc.
The B777 has been, is and will most likely remain to be the better fleet for quantity of layovers. Quality is subjective!
ULH flights are popular because generally to 1st world destinations, productive and can result in more days off. Usually enough of them to go around if you're not too picky.
Pilots on the main airbus fleet do not get as many layovers due to the higher number of turnarounds. Common for B777 pilots to see the majority of their roster as layovers, still plenty of turnarounds or short layovers if that's your preference. The B777 group of pilots and duties is large enough that an individual can usually get some degree of satisfaction no matter what bid group. Rosters are high on block hours and don't expect to get a limited availability flight without seniority and a high bid group.
Any flight around the 10-12 hour mark will be a 3 pilot crew, anything more will have 4 pilots.
The longer ULH flights have 48 hr layovers (SFO,LAX,IAH).
There are a few exceptions depending on departure times, length of previous duty, number of pilots etc.
The B777 has been, is and will most likely remain to be the better fleet for quantity of layovers. Quality is subjective!
ULH flights are popular because generally to 1st world destinations, productive and can result in more days off. Usually enough of them to go around if you're not too picky.
Pilots on the main airbus fleet do not get as many layovers due to the higher number of turnarounds. Common for B777 pilots to see the majority of their roster as layovers, still plenty of turnarounds or short layovers if that's your preference. The B777 group of pilots and duties is large enough that an individual can usually get some degree of satisfaction no matter what bid group. Rosters are high on block hours and don't expect to get a limited availability flight without seniority and a high bid group.
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Sorry, forgot about the junior fleet.
In all sincerity, the question originated from a potential new hire and as we don't recruit directly to the A380 it's kind of irrelevant.
I would also add that for now, the B777 has about 43 layover destinations and the A380 has 10.
In all sincerity, the question originated from a potential new hire and as we don't recruit directly to the A380 it's kind of irrelevant.
I would also add that for now, the B777 has about 43 layover destinations and the A380 has 10.
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EK A380 goes only to LHR, CDG, ICN, JFK, YYZ, MAN, SYD, AKL, PEK, HKG and JED.
DEL and BOM are on the waiting list, as soon as these airports have the capacity and infrastructure for the flying whale. Definately a lot more to come for A380.
T7 gets most of the layovers.
DEL and BOM are on the waiting list, as soon as these airports have the capacity and infrastructure for the flying whale. Definately a lot more to come for A380.
T7 gets most of the layovers.
Last edited by skytrax; 10th Apr 2011 at 13:59.
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A380-800 driver is wrong once again....I think it's because he's stuck as an F/O for a long time and is trying to convince himself that he is Super
Boeing 777 Layovers:
● AKL ●AMS ●BHX ●BKK ●BNE ●CAN ●CDG ●CGK ●CMB ●CPT ●DAC ●DME ●DUS ●EBB ●FCO ●FRA ●GLA ●GRU ●GVA ●HAM ●HKG ●IAH ●JFK ●JNB ●KIX ●KUL ●LAD ●LAX ●LGW ●LHR ●LOS ●MAN ●MEL ●MNL ●MRU ●MUC ●NBO ●NRT ●PER ●PVG ●SFO ●SIN ●SYD ●VIE ●ZRH ●
A380 Layovers:
● AKL ●BKK ●CDG ●HKG ●ICN ●JFK ●LHR ●MAN ●PEK ●PVG ●SYD ●YYZ ●
Boeing 777 Layovers:
● AKL ●AMS ●BHX ●BKK ●BNE ●CAN ●CDG ●CGK ●CMB ●CPT ●DAC ●DME ●DUS ●EBB ●FCO ●FRA ●GLA ●GRU ●GVA ●HAM ●HKG ●IAH ●JFK ●JNB ●KIX ●KUL ●LAD ●LAX ●LGW ●LHR ●LOS ●MAN ●MEL ●MNL ●MRU ●MUC ●NBO ●NRT ●PER ●PVG ●SFO ●SIN ●SYD ●VIE ●ZRH ●
A380 Layovers:
● AKL ●BKK ●CDG ●HKG ●ICN ●JFK ●LHR ●MAN ●PEK ●PVG ●SYD ●YYZ ●
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Hey, with a handle like yours, you should understand the meaning of the word RATIO.
Mr A380 clearly stated that the A380 has more layovers VS turns than any other fleet........ He is of course correct.
With an eventual 90 (possibly 120) of the things in the fleet you can rest assured that the 777's glory days will soon be a thing of the past as you guys will be revelling in the joy's of night India turns as your main job while the A350/A380 drivers (who are currently long suffering on the minibus fleet) will be enjoying many years of decent destinations.
Like it or lump it folks, the Airbus is the way forward (and he'll get a quicker command)!
Mr A380 clearly stated that the A380 has more layovers VS turns than any other fleet........ He is of course correct.
With an eventual 90 (possibly 120) of the things in the fleet you can rest assured that the 777's glory days will soon be a thing of the past as you guys will be revelling in the joy's of night India turns as your main job while the A350/A380 drivers (who are currently long suffering on the minibus fleet) will be enjoying many years of decent destinations.
Like it or lump it folks, the Airbus is the way forward (and he'll get a quicker command)!
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There are two types of statistics - Lies & damned lies. IMHO Boeing is still the best fleet to be on for so many reasons. The biggest one being the fact that you have a major choice in flying and upgrade. If you get stuck on the A380 as an F/O you are the most disadvantaged F/O in the whole of the Emirates. I reckon I have more chance of switching fleets to be a Captain on the A380...
A380-800 Driver - Yes I do know who you are after you pretty well google mapped your position about 12 months ago when you gave details about your Sydney trip here on PPRuNe
Your not very smart are you! Are you looking forward to another 2 years in the right hand seat followed by another 6 months in the right hand seat of the A330, before upgrading. tell me then if you think Airbus is the way forward
A380-800 Driver - Yes I do know who you are after you pretty well google mapped your position about 12 months ago when you gave details about your Sydney trip here on PPRuNe
Your not very smart are you! Are you looking forward to another 2 years in the right hand seat followed by another 6 months in the right hand seat of the A330, before upgrading. tell me then if you think Airbus is the way forward
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I believe there is 24 more 777 remaining in the last order of 40 which included 12 or 18 from an MOU and that there will be 29 retired soon, it begs the question how many more upgrades on the 777. Bottom half of the FO list should start thinking AB . or as the Boeing guys like to say "if ain't Boeing I ain't going ..... to upgrade"
New joiners should research fleet plan before they make up their minds.
New joiners should research fleet plan before they make up their minds.
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There is one additional consideration when comparing 777 or 330 for that matter to the 380 , and that is if you would like to / need to/ leave EK one day. Where will you go as a 380 driver? Your choices are / will be very limiting by comparison. Now the 330 and 777 on the other hand. Oh and 380 drivers will tell you how many thousands of hours they have on the 330 so no worries there right ? , wrong ,I challenge anyone who is not current on the 330 to test the job market . Currency on type is required , and a sim check does not suffice for many jobs ( they require an actual flight on the aircraft).
however if you are one of the types that feels you will never leave EK , or that living in this mine field you think that you will never stand on a landmine over your career here then the 380 will definately be the glory fleet in terms of layovers and lifestyle in time to come . I dont see a 380 into Calicutt for example , so thats obvious.
Do I appear insecure? , absouloutely. Based on experience here and seeing what has happened to colleauges over the years.
however if you are one of the types that feels you will never leave EK , or that living in this mine field you think that you will never stand on a landmine over your career here then the 380 will definately be the glory fleet in terms of layovers and lifestyle in time to come . I dont see a 380 into Calicutt for example , so thats obvious.
Do I appear insecure? , absouloutely. Based on experience here and seeing what has happened to colleauges over the years.
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Thanks for all the info
Thanks guys for all the info, I really appreciate it!
All my hours I've acquired with a LCC so I'm kind of used being home with the family every day/night. What do you think are the chances of getting all return flights if you bid for it exclusively (assuming lowest bidding group on 777)? I can live with some ULH now and then but more than 1-2 per month would be stressful for the family (of 3 kids below 6y old). Of course flying all returns means more duty hours and less days off etc but I'm kind of used to it and don't mind that as long as I get to see their faces daily
All my hours I've acquired with a LCC so I'm kind of used being home with the family every day/night. What do you think are the chances of getting all return flights if you bid for it exclusively (assuming lowest bidding group on 777)? I can live with some ULH now and then but more than 1-2 per month would be stressful for the family (of 3 kids below 6y old). Of course flying all returns means more duty hours and less days off etc but I'm kind of used to it and don't mind that as long as I get to see their faces daily
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Agreed, Kcar my man you are barking up the completely wrong tree mate. As Schnowzer rightly says, FlyDubai is what you should be looking at. You could possibly be away for up to nine days with EK depending on fleet.
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Thanks again!
It's good to hear that there are options. We've been expats for years and likes that so moving to Dubai would not be a problem. But we've gotten used to me being home every day and only having less than 10 days off per month so in case I got most turnarounds our life style wouldn't change that dramatically. Knowing that would make the transition easier for everyone. ULH will get more days off but that would be a benefit down the road if that's what we're looking for then. So I take it short hail is not what people are bidding for then.
I got some understanding of the bidding system but not so in depth. What are the choices more specific? Can you bid to only do LHR in one month for example? Is it possible to bid for things you do not want to, like the asian-oz-nz, third of a month trip?
A third one, hope you don't mind. I've tried to find info about the ULH/augmented crew/FLT limitations. Some says only stick time goes towards FTL but I've also read stick time only for the augmented crew while basic flight crew get total block time, which is it? Say a LAX return, is one of the crew basic crew all the way and back and the other is augmented or do they swap at the turnaround? Of the 32h+ block, who logs what?
Then who decides when to swap over in flight by the way? Say one guy is getting overtime that month, I guess he's keen to get stick time or is it determined by flight ops somehow? Sorry if some of the questions are silly but the only thing I know is a three letter acronym, LCC
Cheers!
It's good to hear that there are options. We've been expats for years and likes that so moving to Dubai would not be a problem. But we've gotten used to me being home every day and only having less than 10 days off per month so in case I got most turnarounds our life style wouldn't change that dramatically. Knowing that would make the transition easier for everyone. ULH will get more days off but that would be a benefit down the road if that's what we're looking for then. So I take it short hail is not what people are bidding for then.
I got some understanding of the bidding system but not so in depth. What are the choices more specific? Can you bid to only do LHR in one month for example? Is it possible to bid for things you do not want to, like the asian-oz-nz, third of a month trip?
A third one, hope you don't mind. I've tried to find info about the ULH/augmented crew/FLT limitations. Some says only stick time goes towards FTL but I've also read stick time only for the augmented crew while basic flight crew get total block time, which is it? Say a LAX return, is one of the crew basic crew all the way and back and the other is augmented or do they swap at the turnaround? Of the 32h+ block, who logs what?
Then who decides when to swap over in flight by the way? Say one guy is getting overtime that month, I guess he's keen to get stick time or is it determined by flight ops somehow? Sorry if some of the questions are silly but the only thing I know is a three letter acronym, LCC
Cheers!
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It's good to hear that there are options. We've been expats for years and likes that so moving to Dubai would not be a problem. But we've gotten used to me being home every day and only having less than 10 days off per month so in case I get most turnarounds our life style wouldn't change that dramatically and knowing that would make the transition easier for everyone. However as some says ULH would get more days off but that would then be a benefit down the road if that's what we're then looking for. So I take it short hail is not what people are bidding for then.
I got some understanding of the bidding system but not so in depth. What are the choices more specific? Can you bid to only do LHR in one month for example? Is it possible to bid for things you do not want to, like the asian-oz-nz, third of a month trip?
A third one, hope you don't mind. I've tried to find info about the ULH/augmented crew/FLT limitations. Some says only stick time goes towards FTL but I've also heard stick time only for the augmented crew while basic flight crew get total block time, which is it? Say a LAX return, is one of the crew basic crew all the way and back and the other is augmented or do they swap at the turnaround? Of the 32h+ block, who log what?
Then who decides when to swap over in flight by the way? Say one guy is getting overtime that month, I guess he's keen to get stick time or is it determined by flight ops somehow? Sorry if some of the questions are silly but the only thing I know is a three letter acronym, LCC
Cheers!
I got some understanding of the bidding system but not so in depth. What are the choices more specific? Can you bid to only do LHR in one month for example? Is it possible to bid for things you do not want to, like the asian-oz-nz, third of a month trip?
A third one, hope you don't mind. I've tried to find info about the ULH/augmented crew/FLT limitations. Some says only stick time goes towards FTL but I've also heard stick time only for the augmented crew while basic flight crew get total block time, which is it? Say a LAX return, is one of the crew basic crew all the way and back and the other is augmented or do they swap at the turnaround? Of the 32h+ block, who log what?
Then who decides when to swap over in flight by the way? Say one guy is getting overtime that month, I guess he's keen to get stick time or is it determined by flight ops somehow? Sorry if some of the questions are silly but the only thing I know is a three letter acronym, LCC
Cheers!
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Wow!!
Last post wasn't addressed to me, but I found it really helpful, and I wanted to know that as well, so thanks a lot "Contacted".
I am waiting to be short by 500h to be invited for the interview, so any info I gather is appreciated. Here goes my question, In a normal roster month with a good mix of everything, 1,2 turn-arounds and the rest layovers, with 1 ULH, how many days would you have off?? My guess is that at least 12 days off a month...
Having most of the roster with ULH, how many days off days it give you?
Thanks!!
Last post wasn't addressed to me, but I found it really helpful, and I wanted to know that as well, so thanks a lot "Contacted".
I am waiting to be short by 500h to be invited for the interview, so any info I gather is appreciated. Here goes my question, In a normal roster month with a good mix of everything, 1,2 turn-arounds and the rest layovers, with 1 ULH, how many days would you have off?? My guess is that at least 12 days off a month...
Having most of the roster with ULH, how many days off days it give you?
Thanks!!