The noose tightens?
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Emirates said in an e-mailed statement that it was "encouraged by these developments."
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The little bird whispering in my ear tells me UAE were demanding 42 a week. They got 22, which I suppose is more than half. But who am I to know?
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Obama and Egypt: Crisis in Egypt puts Obama to the test - latimes.com
Well folks, this looks like more than one force trying to ''squeeze the noose''.
Pray Bahrain is not in line next or the contagion will grow. I know the locals are well fed and AQ is being paid protection money, but then you never know..........many have been made redundant in DXB following the debt crisis, which is only likely to get worse before it gets better.
The french are on a bilateral gifting spree to boost their own economy. AI & 9W will be flying daily into CDG.
Wherever u come from, never forget these thugs are in their SEAT because of the largese of USA/UK. The owners of EK, EY & QR were pirates and smugglers not very long back............. and the present revolt in eygpt will reach here once these AUTOCRATS are past their sell by date......... we live in epochal times.
Well folks, this looks like more than one force trying to ''squeeze the noose''.
Pray Bahrain is not in line next or the contagion will grow. I know the locals are well fed and AQ is being paid protection money, but then you never know..........many have been made redundant in DXB following the debt crisis, which is only likely to get worse before it gets better.
Wikipedia says there are 65,000 Indians living in France, so no surprises there
Well, if France does not grant EK and EY more slots, then this thugs could cancel the huge Airbus orders they have. Simple reasoning!!!
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Either extreme does not work Contacted. Regulation and protection are in many ways the same thing... How far you go is what determines. There is a place in the world for a bit of control and regulation as well as free trade. It all depends on good management and making sure you ensure viability of your own interests as well as allowing your neighbor to open his business on your property if you so decide you want to do that.
I would like to think you believe the same and you don't just argue free trade for Emirates just because it might benefit you. Especially since the UAE is just a guilty on the protection front as anyone.
I would like to think you believe the same and you don't just argue free trade for Emirates just because it might benefit you. Especially since the UAE is just a guilty on the protection front as anyone.
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free trade in Dubai?
Can I please have our apologist's views on the fact that there is F all competition allowed in Dubai.
Why is no other catering company allowed to operate at DXB, why are there no other handling agents allowed than DNATA, are you happy with all the monopolized services in DXB e.g. the high prices of telecom providers leading to obscene profits for Etisalat and the pseudo competitor DU?
anyone?....anyone?...Bueller?....Bueller???
Anybody can set up a company e.g. in the EU whereas the UAE is a closed market, keeping all ownership majority in UAE hands.
It's easy to point at others and accuse them of protectionism while the whole of the UAE is a prime example of exactly that!!
That doesn't justify other protectionism but they should start to clean their own shop first!
Why is no other catering company allowed to operate at DXB, why are there no other handling agents allowed than DNATA, are you happy with all the monopolized services in DXB e.g. the high prices of telecom providers leading to obscene profits for Etisalat and the pseudo competitor DU?
anyone?....anyone?...Bueller?....Bueller???
Anybody can set up a company e.g. in the EU whereas the UAE is a closed market, keeping all ownership majority in UAE hands.
It's easy to point at others and accuse them of protectionism while the whole of the UAE is a prime example of exactly that!!
That doesn't justify other protectionism but they should start to clean their own shop first!
Last edited by Schibulsky; 30th Jan 2011 at 14:40.
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Hey Schib! Who is an APOLOGIST in your little book?
I mean; let's face it, you seem to try and speak for me and my family!!!! Telling me I should have plan A,B,C,D and possibly E...
As a pilot here at EK - do I give a flying whatsit about free trade??? Nope! Don't give a monkey's!.... As long as I get paid every month. Same ideals as most of the flyers here.........
Toodle-pip old fellow.....
I mean; let's face it, you seem to try and speak for me and my family!!!! Telling me I should have plan A,B,C,D and possibly E...
As a pilot here at EK - do I give a flying whatsit about free trade??? Nope! Don't give a monkey's!.... As long as I get paid every month. Same ideals as most of the flyers here.........
Toodle-pip old fellow.....
Last edited by White Knight; 1st Feb 2011 at 04:03.
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here we go again...
This was a reasonable and polite discussion until the village idiot came along!
No contribution to the topic...considering everything as related to his oh so important person and reverting to the usual name calling.
WK, if you don't consider yourself an apologist (so why did you reply??)...what about being an opportunist?
Here the definition of opportunism (just in case):
"the policy or practice, as in politics, business, or one's personal affairs, of adapting actions, decisions, etc., to expediency or effectiveness regardless of the sacrifice of ethical principles"
...so what you call an "ideal" sounds more like an excuse to me!
So puleeze do us all a favor and stay out of a discussion between adults....and keep your verbal diarrhea for the F/Os who will definitely "love" it as much as your charming personality!
No contribution to the topic...considering everything as related to his oh so important person and reverting to the usual name calling.
WK, if you don't consider yourself an apologist (so why did you reply??)...what about being an opportunist?
Here the definition of opportunism (just in case):
"the policy or practice, as in politics, business, or one's personal affairs, of adapting actions, decisions, etc., to expediency or effectiveness regardless of the sacrifice of ethical principles"
...so what you call an "ideal" sounds more like an excuse to me!
So puleeze do us all a favor and stay out of a discussion between adults....and keep your verbal diarrhea for the F/Os who will definitely "love" it as much as your charming personality!
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@contacted
You might be right in general that open skies policy will prevail worldwide, although I hope it will not just lead to free but also fair trade.
You are also right that the telecom example has nothing to do with aviation, it was only an example of the overall UAE protectionism that effects you guys personally.
The point I made (and DB obviously had in mind) was indeed aviation related...the monopolized operation at all UAE airports.
MF and TC are constantly winging about the protectionism of other countries while the UAE is keeping all competitors out of their airports. They bragging about unlimited access to the UAE airports...as long as everybody is using THEIR handling, catering and all other services!
What if LH wants to establish their chauffeur service for high profile customers at DXB? Yes, they could set it up...but meet Mohammad, he will hold 51% of that company!
Another good post was at the other "Canadian/UAE" thread by Confusedcanuck. It was about the service to Canadians NOT living in the few big cities. They have to rely on the unprofitable domestic feeder services that are subsidized by the international operations of Canadian airlines.
Do you think EK cares beyond the transportation between DXB and YYT?..so much for "consumers choices"... there will be none!
You are also right that the telecom example has nothing to do with aviation, it was only an example of the overall UAE protectionism that effects you guys personally.
The point I made (and DB obviously had in mind) was indeed aviation related...the monopolized operation at all UAE airports.
MF and TC are constantly winging about the protectionism of other countries while the UAE is keeping all competitors out of their airports. They bragging about unlimited access to the UAE airports...as long as everybody is using THEIR handling, catering and all other services!
What if LH wants to establish their chauffeur service for high profile customers at DXB? Yes, they could set it up...but meet Mohammad, he will hold 51% of that company!
Another good post was at the other "Canadian/UAE" thread by Confusedcanuck. It was about the service to Canadians NOT living in the few big cities. They have to rely on the unprofitable domestic feeder services that are subsidized by the international operations of Canadian airlines.
Do you think EK cares beyond the transportation between DXB and YYT?..so much for "consumers choices"... there will be none!
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It depends on whether you consider commercial aviation part of essential infrastructure. If you do, then handing over control of it to 'the market' is fraught with danger.
Sometimes, tempering 'the market' is a good thing.
Sometimes, tempering 'the market' is a good thing.
I also don't get who is supposed to benefit if the Dubai Government gives EK extra breaks at DXB- It loses revenue for the Dubai Government by giving cheap handling to by far DXBs biggest customer- thus cutting revenue to the Dubai Government.
Thus supposedly giving a hand to EK which is owned by and gives dividends to.....the Dubai Government.
Out of one hand, into the other, with no net benefit.
The belief comes because other National Carriers are traditional loss makers and are propped up, for political reasons by Tax-funded subsidies.
EK is a CASH COW for the Dubai Government and funds FROM EK are a huge art of Dubai's economy- why would ANY funds flow the other way?
Thus supposedly giving a hand to EK which is owned by and gives dividends to.....the Dubai Government.
Out of one hand, into the other, with no net benefit.
The belief comes because other National Carriers are traditional loss makers and are propped up, for political reasons by Tax-funded subsidies.
EK is a CASH COW for the Dubai Government and funds FROM EK are a huge art of Dubai's economy- why would ANY funds flow the other way?
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Wiz, you are right, it doesn't matter...but only as long as there is no competition at DXB airport. So at the end, ALL money goes to the government. Same goes for most services in the UAE.
Btw LH is a cash cow for the German government as well...lots of tax revenue from LH employees and to some extend from LH itself! The German government also profits from holding a lot of LH shares.
And absolutely no subsidizing since decades!
I beg to differ, some infrastructure is part of the public service of a country.
Look what happens when state owned railways are privatized. They cherry pick the most profitable routes and the services to remote areas factually stop.
And I don't defend the bad and inefficient service of the state railways! Same for private roads etc.
Also keep in mind that the infrastructure of these countries are mostly built on the tax payer's expense by the government.
As already pointed out, the deterioration of rural air service would happen to a great extend in Canada. So "protecting" and regulating is actually part of the responsibilities of the Government. The "free market" doesn't give a rodent's behind about the transportation needs of people outside the main stream of traffic!
Btw LH is a cash cow for the German government as well...lots of tax revenue from LH employees and to some extend from LH itself! The German government also profits from holding a lot of LH shares.
And absolutely no subsidizing since decades!
Commercial Aviation is part of essential infrastructure. Thats why it should be given the freedom to thrive
Look what happens when state owned railways are privatized. They cherry pick the most profitable routes and the services to remote areas factually stop.
And I don't defend the bad and inefficient service of the state railways! Same for private roads etc.
Also keep in mind that the infrastructure of these countries are mostly built on the tax payer's expense by the government.
As already pointed out, the deterioration of rural air service would happen to a great extend in Canada. So "protecting" and regulating is actually part of the responsibilities of the Government. The "free market" doesn't give a rodent's behind about the transportation needs of people outside the main stream of traffic!
Schib,
But, as you point out, who gives a stuff about operating from DXB airport? I spent a very pleasant hour in the Desdi hold last night at the end of a 12 hr duty sweating fuel and wondering if i was going to be spending the night in Doha or Al Ain. DXB is saturated.
AND, as you rightly point out, NONE of that is because the UAE is a destination, it's because it is a hub. ANY airport within 500NM could do the job as well, so why is limited access to DXB such as impost? If any European airline wanted to hub-and-spoke in the ME, they could do so through Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Sharja, Ankara or any number of other places.
The only reason I can think of to why a European operation would WANT to come to Dubai?
On-carriage of passengers EK has brought there....
Lets talk about LH and AF, and access to regional airports in France and Germany....
But, as you point out, who gives a stuff about operating from DXB airport? I spent a very pleasant hour in the Desdi hold last night at the end of a 12 hr duty sweating fuel and wondering if i was going to be spending the night in Doha or Al Ain. DXB is saturated.
AND, as you rightly point out, NONE of that is because the UAE is a destination, it's because it is a hub. ANY airport within 500NM could do the job as well, so why is limited access to DXB such as impost? If any European airline wanted to hub-and-spoke in the ME, they could do so through Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Sharja, Ankara or any number of other places.
The only reason I can think of to why a European operation would WANT to come to Dubai?
On-carriage of passengers EK has brought there....
And absolutely no subsidizing since decades!
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Wow now we are comparing EK and DXBs model, to Globalisation and free trade.
True, aviation is all about movement of goods and people. It is a mode of transport. In the case of EU, rail and road move more goods and people than aviation, however to compare aviation with globalisation IMO is not factual.
Further to claim that this is the way forward in aviation and open skies is inevitable is premature and wishfull thinking.
Look at EU to start with, there is a OS across EU, any airline can operate from any country within EU. Back in 2003/4 i remember listening to the CEO of AirMalta asserting to exploit his right to operate from UK. Airmalta did start operating from UK to Spain but had to wind up ops soon in face of competition, which was from airlines based in UK. On paper Airmalta should have been very successfull because they have a low operating cost base, so then what went wrong.
Market forces, in te form of govt regulators stop these growth because they don't want revenue and jobs to migrate. EZY and FR have faced tremendous barriers to entry in France.
Back in 2004 in an academic env i had to write on INDEXING PILOT WAGES, worldwide. All i did was raise the issues involved which make it impossibile to Index pilot wages in a local market like LHR, LGW, STN and LTN, leave aside global market. There are huge number of variables, house price, unions, local laws etc etc that distort these numbers. You guys would be in a better position to raise the diff variables involved, anyway the daft bean counter prof was not impressed because i had not used fin jargon and the numbers were thin. Don't we all know what/who (criminal pilot remuneration) brought Airlingus to its present state and consequently saw the rise of FR (full leverage of contract labour, upto 49% in some case), you see gents the distortion i was talking about.
Ref LH which IMO is a brilliant model of indirect state support, inspite of the airline being a independent listed co. It gains massively from the largese of the Deutsche Vertretungen around EU. Malta has a huge LT-Tecknik base, LH pension fund is based there alongwith many other Tier-1 german co PFs. LHT has been declaring record profits repeatedly whilst LH airline has been moaning about diff trading.
LHT are now based in low cost E-EU where all their facilities are built by the local (country based in) govt with money borrowed from Deutsche banks or deutsche PF shall we say. HAM has been shrunk as a behmoth of aircraft maint down to, only taking the maint orders from global airlines (read new ME carriers) for their maint/repair. This is then sold to these E-EU based LHT cos to bid.
So the model is very simple, LH owns LHT as a standalone co. Sets up LHT at low cost base countries, makes the local govt pay for the infra, money is lent by LH PF or preffered bank and then these local LHT co bid for the work from LHT-HAM which keeps a chunk as profit even beore the work has actually started. LH makes money on every step of the way.
So coming back to the argument of the EK business model and its fight against western govt and airlines. My point is EK is being subsidised heavily by the govt of DXB and this subsidy is at a cost, we will never know the cost but can only guess. As a guesstimate, you've to chk the cost of building the terminals and maint facility at DXB, the infrastructure cost of building all those hotels for the transit pax, the apt for the crew, the financial city which was to attract the business to DXB, the road and metro network etc. Not to mention the 90% expatriate workforce to build and operate all these institutes/Org.
The parallel to this kind of state support can be evaluated from the history of BA/BAA or LH/FRA or AF/CDG, or more recently Olympic airways, Alitalia. In all these cases a open democratic society (parliament, media, analysts etc) highlighted the huge losses incurred by these org as the cost could never be recouped by the govt to the benefit of the tax payer and had to be pvt by listing them publicly.
It is no diff in the case of EK. Shk Mo is the tax payer here. We know he is $120b into the dodo, THAT MY FRIEND IS THE TRUE COST OF OPERATING EK (apart from Dubai world, every other venture compliments EK). The profits and staff bonuses were to retain the manpower and fool the market for the previously planned stock listing.
So my conclusion is that Aviation is only a mode of transport. As a commodity its like any other commodity and globalisation is nothing but the ploy of western govts, banks and MNC (multi national cos) to dominate global trade and business as their domestic markets mature and shrink.
EK, QR and EY have a PLACE in this world, but they seem to have forgotten it and want to DISPLACE these airlines that are core to the transport and consequently economy of these democractically elected countries, whilst being run by the autocratic monarchies based in the most volatile but OIL rich region of the world.
I had mentioned in my earlier post about the epochal times we live in. For a moment try to look back to the last 20yrs. The rate of change in the world, be it global politics (USSR broken by glasnost, The unification of Germany, Formation of EU ), global finance (growth of banks, Euro), Technology (Internet, Mobile phones) and Global trade making inroads into markets governed by autocrats (China, Middle-east). We are in the last phase where the plan is to have a single political, finance and trade regulation across the globe.
Mia culpa for the long post. You see since we were talking about globalisation and de-regulation, i wanted to highlight that de-regulation took years to frution in USA or EU. But if you look at the runaway growth of the ME airlines, it begs the question what exactly is the end game...................tunisia, eygpt,..........
You could say "Commercial Aviation is Globalisation" (movement of people and goods around the world).
Further to claim that this is the way forward in aviation and open skies is inevitable is premature and wishfull thinking.
Look at EU to start with, there is a OS across EU, any airline can operate from any country within EU. Back in 2003/4 i remember listening to the CEO of AirMalta asserting to exploit his right to operate from UK. Airmalta did start operating from UK to Spain but had to wind up ops soon in face of competition, which was from airlines based in UK. On paper Airmalta should have been very successfull because they have a low operating cost base, so then what went wrong.
Market forces, in te form of govt regulators stop these growth because they don't want revenue and jobs to migrate. EZY and FR have faced tremendous barriers to entry in France.
Back in 2004 in an academic env i had to write on INDEXING PILOT WAGES, worldwide. All i did was raise the issues involved which make it impossibile to Index pilot wages in a local market like LHR, LGW, STN and LTN, leave aside global market. There are huge number of variables, house price, unions, local laws etc etc that distort these numbers. You guys would be in a better position to raise the diff variables involved, anyway the daft bean counter prof was not impressed because i had not used fin jargon and the numbers were thin. Don't we all know what/who (criminal pilot remuneration) brought Airlingus to its present state and consequently saw the rise of FR (full leverage of contract labour, upto 49% in some case), you see gents the distortion i was talking about.
Ref LH which IMO is a brilliant model of indirect state support, inspite of the airline being a independent listed co. It gains massively from the largese of the Deutsche Vertretungen around EU. Malta has a huge LT-Tecknik base, LH pension fund is based there alongwith many other Tier-1 german co PFs. LHT has been declaring record profits repeatedly whilst LH airline has been moaning about diff trading.
LHT are now based in low cost E-EU where all their facilities are built by the local (country based in) govt with money borrowed from Deutsche banks or deutsche PF shall we say. HAM has been shrunk as a behmoth of aircraft maint down to, only taking the maint orders from global airlines (read new ME carriers) for their maint/repair. This is then sold to these E-EU based LHT cos to bid.
So the model is very simple, LH owns LHT as a standalone co. Sets up LHT at low cost base countries, makes the local govt pay for the infra, money is lent by LH PF or preffered bank and then these local LHT co bid for the work from LHT-HAM which keeps a chunk as profit even beore the work has actually started. LH makes money on every step of the way.
So coming back to the argument of the EK business model and its fight against western govt and airlines. My point is EK is being subsidised heavily by the govt of DXB and this subsidy is at a cost, we will never know the cost but can only guess. As a guesstimate, you've to chk the cost of building the terminals and maint facility at DXB, the infrastructure cost of building all those hotels for the transit pax, the apt for the crew, the financial city which was to attract the business to DXB, the road and metro network etc. Not to mention the 90% expatriate workforce to build and operate all these institutes/Org.
The parallel to this kind of state support can be evaluated from the history of BA/BAA or LH/FRA or AF/CDG, or more recently Olympic airways, Alitalia. In all these cases a open democratic society (parliament, media, analysts etc) highlighted the huge losses incurred by these org as the cost could never be recouped by the govt to the benefit of the tax payer and had to be pvt by listing them publicly.
It is no diff in the case of EK. Shk Mo is the tax payer here. We know he is $120b into the dodo, THAT MY FRIEND IS THE TRUE COST OF OPERATING EK (apart from Dubai world, every other venture compliments EK). The profits and staff bonuses were to retain the manpower and fool the market for the previously planned stock listing.
So my conclusion is that Aviation is only a mode of transport. As a commodity its like any other commodity and globalisation is nothing but the ploy of western govts, banks and MNC (multi national cos) to dominate global trade and business as their domestic markets mature and shrink.
EK, QR and EY have a PLACE in this world, but they seem to have forgotten it and want to DISPLACE these airlines that are core to the transport and consequently economy of these democractically elected countries, whilst being run by the autocratic monarchies based in the most volatile but OIL rich region of the world.
I had mentioned in my earlier post about the epochal times we live in. For a moment try to look back to the last 20yrs. The rate of change in the world, be it global politics (USSR broken by glasnost, The unification of Germany, Formation of EU ), global finance (growth of banks, Euro), Technology (Internet, Mobile phones) and Global trade making inroads into markets governed by autocrats (China, Middle-east). We are in the last phase where the plan is to have a single political, finance and trade regulation across the globe.
Mia culpa for the long post. You see since we were talking about globalisation and de-regulation, i wanted to highlight that de-regulation took years to frution in USA or EU. But if you look at the runaway growth of the ME airlines, it begs the question what exactly is the end game...................tunisia, eygpt,..........
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Hi Wiz, I don't think any European airline would be interested in setting up a hub in the middle east.
e.g. LH indeed uses DXB as a destination for tourists and business pax, covered by the hand full of flights they have, plus the triangle flights via some other ME airports.
The only onward pax I could think of would be for Australian/NZ destinations.
All other destinations in Asia and Africa are reachable non stop by LH or their Star Alliance partners or with one stop for a domestic onward flight.
I can't really see any agent selling a ticket FRA-Perth changing carriers in DXB anyway. Most pax like to earn miles on their favorite carrier/alliance.
Yep...let's look at e.g. Hahn airport EDFH close to FRA, where the government spent millions of tax payers money to accommodate Lyin'air and other non-german freight carriers 
And Jethro is right, there is an indirect support from the government for LH...but like Hahn shows, also for all other carriers who generates business and employment. Don't mistake tax breaks and incentives to create employment and business with direct subsidizing.
The idea behind the EU is distributing the business and wealth through all EU countries, of course LH and others take advantage of that. You could see the EU as a small scale globalization, but with proper rules. And again, its NOT perfect, but beats the heck out of the shark tank the rest of the world has become.
e.g. LH indeed uses DXB as a destination for tourists and business pax, covered by the hand full of flights they have, plus the triangle flights via some other ME airports.
The only onward pax I could think of would be for Australian/NZ destinations.
All other destinations in Asia and Africa are reachable non stop by LH or their Star Alliance partners or with one stop for a domestic onward flight.
I can't really see any agent selling a ticket FRA-Perth changing carriers in DXB anyway. Most pax like to earn miles on their favorite carrier/alliance.
Lets talk about LH and AF, and access to regional airports in France and Germany....
And Jethro is right, there is an indirect support from the government for LH...but like Hahn shows, also for all other carriers who generates business and employment. Don't mistake tax breaks and incentives to create employment and business with direct subsidizing.
The idea behind the EU is distributing the business and wealth through all EU countries, of course LH and others take advantage of that. You could see the EU as a small scale globalization, but with proper rules. And again, its NOT perfect, but beats the heck out of the shark tank the rest of the world has become.