Air Canada Losing C$$$ ?
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Air Canada Losing C$$$ ?
In a interview on WSJ with Air Canada's CEO Calin Rovinescu he says on that Canada’s “outdated policies” around the aerospace industry are constraining economic growth.
Between airport rent, airport infrastructure, navigation fees and charges, Air Canada estimates that it would save about C$1 billion ($992m) if it was a US airline with the same volume of business.
In addition, AC sees increasingly Canadians driving across the border to Buffalo, to Plattsburgh, to Seattle to get on flights because they are cheaper.
(more)
Airlines losing customers to U.S.: Air Canada CEO
Airlines losing customers to U.S.: Air Canada CEO - The Globe and Mail
Between airport rent, airport infrastructure, navigation fees and charges, Air Canada estimates that it would save about C$1 billion ($992m) if it was a US airline with the same volume of business.
In addition, AC sees increasingly Canadians driving across the border to Buffalo, to Plattsburgh, to Seattle to get on flights because they are cheaper.
(more)
Airlines losing customers to U.S.: Air Canada CEO
Airlines losing customers to U.S.: Air Canada CEO - The Globe and Mail
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is this thread lost ? does it not belong on the Canadian Forum ?
there are many airlines in the world loosing money these days, thats not really news.
a tired old Canadian airline (Canada's only international 3 star brand) finds itself in the same boat as others
.
it's a surprise it took them this long and I assume its only due to the fact that they operate in fear of any heathy competition, thus restricting the amount of airlines that are allowed in. not to mention restrictions on air carriers within the country itself i'm sure.
I hope for the sake of the pilots stuck within this flag ship that all works out for them in the end.
there are many airlines in the world loosing money these days, thats not really news.
a tired old Canadian airline (Canada's only international 3 star brand) finds itself in the same boat as others
. it's a surprise it took them this long and I assume its only due to the fact that they operate in fear of any heathy competition, thus restricting the amount of airlines that are allowed in. not to mention restrictions on air carriers within the country itself i'm sure.
I hope for the sake of the pilots stuck within this flag ship that all works out for them in the end.
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What a farce... you guys are cry babies on crack with distorted views of reality.
No healthy competition? Do I need to make a list of all the international carriers flying to Canada in comparison to the UAE? EY and EK are on that list! You lose that one. (newest member: Qatar Airways!)
Have any of the ME Airlines supported a decent defined contribution pension plan? NO ...you lose. how come? Dont you guys all whine about tho...don’t you?
Have any of the major ME Airlines ever been publicly owned? NO. You lose again.
Any of these ME countries had a Democracy? No. You lose again.
Do any of the ME countries enforce fair labor protections and immigration laws? NO.. you lose again.
And on and on and on...
Sorry. But you have lost the fair competition stress test.
CANADA WELCOMES fair and balanced competition. Unlike the UAE. (see again 2nd para to open your eyes)
No healthy competition? Do I need to make a list of all the international carriers flying to Canada in comparison to the UAE? EY and EK are on that list! You lose that one. (newest member: Qatar Airways!)
Have any of the ME Airlines supported a decent defined contribution pension plan? NO ...you lose. how come? Dont you guys all whine about tho...don’t you?
Have any of the major ME Airlines ever been publicly owned? NO. You lose again.
Any of these ME countries had a Democracy? No. You lose again.
Do any of the ME countries enforce fair labor protections and immigration laws? NO.. you lose again.
And on and on and on...
Sorry. But you have lost the fair competition stress test.
CANADA WELCOMES fair and balanced competition. Unlike the UAE. (see again 2nd para to open your eyes)
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Desert, here we go again my friend......
You quoted "No healthy competition? Do I need to make a list of all the international carriers flying to Canada in comparison to the UAE? EY and EK are on that list! You lose that one. (newest member: Qatar Airways!)"
and
"CANADA WELCOMES fair and balanced competition. Unlike the UAE. (see again 2nd para to open your eyes)"
Sorry (again) to prove you wrong, but a quick check on Wiki, shows that (not including Cargo or Subsidiary Airlines) Pearson currently has 47 Passenger Airlines serving it whilst Dubai has 109 Passenger Airlines serving it.......
YOU lose on that one, open YOUR eyes!
But as you have ably proven on many an occasion, you simply refuse to admit when you are wrong despite the overwhelming evidence, so I'm not holding my breath. PLEASE do your research before quoting nonsense
You quoted "No healthy competition? Do I need to make a list of all the international carriers flying to Canada in comparison to the UAE? EY and EK are on that list! You lose that one. (newest member: Qatar Airways!)"
and
"CANADA WELCOMES fair and balanced competition. Unlike the UAE. (see again 2nd para to open your eyes)"
Sorry (again) to prove you wrong, but a quick check on Wiki, shows that (not including Cargo or Subsidiary Airlines) Pearson currently has 47 Passenger Airlines serving it whilst Dubai has 109 Passenger Airlines serving it.......
YOU lose on that one, open YOUR eyes!
But as you have ably proven on many an occasion, you simply refuse to admit when you are wrong despite the overwhelming evidence, so I'm not holding my breath. PLEASE do your research before quoting nonsense
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But to be fair how many of the 109 Airlines countries are within 3-4 hours of DXB and how many are with in the same range of YYZ. Are any of the 109 on the Black list. Why is the Defense Minister involved with commercial air service?
Yes, but equally, how many of the 47 operating to Pearson are in range of DXB?
The UAE has an open skies policy, Canada doesn't.
The UAE has an open skies policy, Canada doesn't.
Point by point:-
Covered above. Air Canada, West-Jet or whomever could, even now, operate to DXB or OMAA right now with no restriction or need of bilateral agreement- It's UAE Government policy.
Defined CONTRIBUTION? Yes, EK does. Defined BENEFIT? No. In 27 years of commercial flying I've never been in a defined benefit pension scheme. They are a dinosaur and have been for decades. British Airways have a 1 BILLION Pound hole in theirs, and most US pilots have lost most or all of theirs.
My retirement funds belong to me and no-one else. What happens to AC pension recipients if AC folds?
No. Why would they? Would the Canadian Government have sold Canadian Airlines if it had been a cash cow providing huge dividends to to Government? Unlike places like Canada, the ME can have PROFITABLE Government owned Airlines.
What has the countries political system to do with the running of it's businesses? You won't find many citizens here upset with the system of government.
You mean do we have illegals mowing our lawns and raising our babies? No.That seems to be endemic to North America. There is very little illegal immigration in the UAE. There are not the same workers rights as in western countries, and there is exploitation of labor.
This is sad and should be resisted.
By the way, where were your running shoes made? I'm sure YOU wouldn't benefit from exploited labor now, would you?
You quoted "No healthy competition? Do I need to make a list of all the international carriers flying to Canada in comparison to the UAE? EY and EK are on that list! You lose that one. (newest member: Qatar Airways!)"
Have any of the ME Airlines supported a decent defined contribution pension plan? NO ...you lose. how come? Dont you guys all whine about tho...don’t you?
My retirement funds belong to me and no-one else. What happens to AC pension recipients if AC folds?
Have any of the major ME Airlines ever been publicly owned? NO. You lose again.
Any of these ME countries had a Democracy? No. You lose again.
Do any of the ME countries enforce fair labor protections and immigration laws? NO.. you lose again.
This is sad and should be resisted.
By the way, where were your running shoes made? I'm sure YOU wouldn't benefit from exploited labor now, would you?
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Come on guys! You guys work in this business yet know nothing about it do you? You drive me nuts!
First: The reason when you go to wiki or even IATA and find more airlines in the list for UAE is BECAUSE OF UAE’s open sky agreement. That means all these airlines have an ASA or “Air Service Agreement”. Because its open sky’s .. ie: free for all… all the airlines have the ASA! Air Canada is on that list…but then they don’t fly there do they? Idixxxxs. Fuxx!
Next: Your right. Defined Benefit. My typo. So are you saying defined contribution is better? DB is less prevalent BECAUSE its better. But tougher for the employer to maintain if they don’t manage it properly. If AC goes out of biz, every pilot gets their pension contributions in cash plus ROI. Its separate. Just the same as you. That’s the diff with the higher expense of a greater socio economic responsibility. That is the dif between the American pensions and Canadians. In the US in the past, if a company went bust, they can take the pension. Not so in Canada. So next you going to tell me its better to take benefits away from the employees now? Is that the meaning of your better competition? Because I sure see you guys complaining a lot on that ME forum of yours. Seems Hypocritical.
I make no apologies for the shoes I wear. I stand to support local business. You do as much as you can. My runners are made in Asia because that’s where they are ALL made. Not much choice. But the lions share of my shoes are made in Europe. As for politics and ownership… and socio-economic responsibility… well I don’t even need to talk about that with you anymore. The world would agree that Canada is the top of that list.
I am for liberalization, but based on the criteria below. Please read it.
1. Introductiuon At the invitation of IATA, representatives of 14 nation states and the EU met at the Agenda for Freedom Summit in Istanbul on the 25th and 26th of October 2008 to discuss the further liberalisation of the aviation industry. The participants agreed that further liberalisation of the international aviation market was generally desirable, bringing benefits to the aviation industry, to consumers and to the wider economy. In doing so, the participants were also mindful of the following issues:
The need to maintain leverage to address “doing business” issues.
The need to avoid overwhelming available infrastructure with increased traffic.
The special needs of developing nations, and those in transition, to fully open markets.
The need for a level playing field.
The dependency of remote island States on air transportation.
The impact on labour interests.
Issues of national pride and sovereignty.
None of these issues were considered insurmountable and to explore the effects of further liberalisation the participants asked IATA to develop studies on 12 countries to examine the impact of Air Service Agreement (ASA) liberalisation on the aviation industry, air passengers, and the wider economy, in each country.
There you go again gents. Right from our illustrious own IATA. (what are you quoting from wiki for Oblasspop? Don’t know our own industry resources?)
First: The reason when you go to wiki or even IATA and find more airlines in the list for UAE is BECAUSE OF UAE’s open sky agreement. That means all these airlines have an ASA or “Air Service Agreement”. Because its open sky’s .. ie: free for all… all the airlines have the ASA! Air Canada is on that list…but then they don’t fly there do they? Idixxxxs. Fuxx!
Next: Your right. Defined Benefit. My typo. So are you saying defined contribution is better? DB is less prevalent BECAUSE its better. But tougher for the employer to maintain if they don’t manage it properly. If AC goes out of biz, every pilot gets their pension contributions in cash plus ROI. Its separate. Just the same as you. That’s the diff with the higher expense of a greater socio economic responsibility. That is the dif between the American pensions and Canadians. In the US in the past, if a company went bust, they can take the pension. Not so in Canada. So next you going to tell me its better to take benefits away from the employees now? Is that the meaning of your better competition? Because I sure see you guys complaining a lot on that ME forum of yours. Seems Hypocritical.
I make no apologies for the shoes I wear. I stand to support local business. You do as much as you can. My runners are made in Asia because that’s where they are ALL made. Not much choice. But the lions share of my shoes are made in Europe. As for politics and ownership… and socio-economic responsibility… well I don’t even need to talk about that with you anymore. The world would agree that Canada is the top of that list.
I am for liberalization, but based on the criteria below. Please read it.
1. Introductiuon At the invitation of IATA, representatives of 14 nation states and the EU met at the Agenda for Freedom Summit in Istanbul on the 25th and 26th of October 2008 to discuss the further liberalisation of the aviation industry. The participants agreed that further liberalisation of the international aviation market was generally desirable, bringing benefits to the aviation industry, to consumers and to the wider economy. In doing so, the participants were also mindful of the following issues:
The need to maintain leverage to address “doing business” issues.
The need to avoid overwhelming available infrastructure with increased traffic.
The special needs of developing nations, and those in transition, to fully open markets.
The need for a level playing field.
The dependency of remote island States on air transportation.
The impact on labour interests.
Issues of national pride and sovereignty.
None of these issues were considered insurmountable and to explore the effects of further liberalisation the participants asked IATA to develop studies on 12 countries to examine the impact of Air Service Agreement (ASA) liberalisation on the aviation industry, air passengers, and the wider economy, in each country.
There you go again gents. Right from our illustrious own IATA. (what are you quoting from wiki for Oblasspop? Don’t know our own industry resources?)
Last edited by Desertbannanas; 25th Nov 2010 at 19:59.
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Originally Posted by desertbannanas
The special needs of developing nations, and those in transition, to fully open markets.
First: The reason when you go to wiki or even IATA and find more airlines in the list for UAE is BECAUSE OF UAE’s open sky agreement. That means all these airlines have an ASA or “Air Service Agreement”. Because its open sky’s .. ie: free for all… all the airlines have the ASA! Air Canada is on that list…but then they don’t fly there do they? Idixxxxs. Fuxx!
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Desert, like I said, you just can't be told can you?
Air Canada IS NOT on the list of carriers flying to DXB and was not one of the 109 Airlines quoted on Wiki. If you bothered to have a look, it even goes on to mention the routes that the 109 Airlines operate from DXB.
What you really need to do buddy, is climb down from your high horse for just one moment and actually bother to do some research to back up your statements . It MIGHT actually make some of your arguments look credible. For now though most are just feeling sorry for you!
BTW, did you see that EK has just signed a codeshare/interline agreement with Jet Blue in the US? Looks like EK will now be able to get into the Canadian market via the back door in order to poach business from AC. Now if the Canadians had just granted a few extra flights per week to EK, I doubt this would have happened, but now AC needs to really worry as I hear that SEA, ORD, and others will be new routes for EK (funny how the Yanks don't see EK as a threat to their economy isn't it?).
Air Canada IS NOT on the list of carriers flying to DXB and was not one of the 109 Airlines quoted on Wiki. If you bothered to have a look, it even goes on to mention the routes that the 109 Airlines operate from DXB.
What you really need to do buddy, is climb down from your high horse for just one moment and actually bother to do some research to back up your statements . It MIGHT actually make some of your arguments look credible. For now though most are just feeling sorry for you!
BTW, did you see that EK has just signed a codeshare/interline agreement with Jet Blue in the US? Looks like EK will now be able to get into the Canadian market via the back door in order to poach business from AC. Now if the Canadians had just granted a few extra flights per week to EK, I doubt this would have happened, but now AC needs to really worry as I hear that SEA, ORD, and others will be new routes for EK (funny how the Yanks don't see EK as a threat to their economy isn't it?).
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LOL...your right Oblasspop I can't be told. And nor can Canadians.
I have posted more than enough credible info for you... from all the credible sources. Almost every single post I make I back it up. If you can learn from it...so be it. What have you guys brought to the table in your argument? Almost nothing of value.
No Oblasspop, the reason there are 109 airlines on the list is because of the UAE's location to many shorthaul airlines. + the ASA, + the alliance factor. If just one airline in an alliance serves UAE, they all do (even if they don't actually fly there). And yes, I have been to both AUH and DXB very recently, so I have seen it.
IATA... ya... not much credibility there eh. Man do you guys need some education.
I have posted more than enough credible info for you... from all the credible sources. Almost every single post I make I back it up. If you can learn from it...so be it. What have you guys brought to the table in your argument? Almost nothing of value.
No Oblasspop, the reason there are 109 airlines on the list is because of the UAE's location to many shorthaul airlines. + the ASA, + the alliance factor. If just one airline in an alliance serves UAE, they all do (even if they don't actually fly there). And yes, I have been to both AUH and DXB very recently, so I have seen it.
IATA... ya... not much credibility there eh. Man do you guys need some education.
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For your benefit Oblasspop. Extra after school classes since you were not paying attention in class:
From the report on Air Liberalization from IATA. IATA!!!!!!!!!! Yep... no research here... LOL. Oh man... keep this guy out of airplanes please!
1. Introductiuon At the invitation of IATA, representatives of 14 nation states and the EU met at the Agenda for Freedom Summit in Istanbul on the 25th and 26th of October 2008 to discuss the further liberalisation of the aviation industry. The participants agreed that further liberalisation of the international aviation market was generally desirable, bringing benefits to the aviation industry, to consumers and to the wider economy. In doing so, the participants were also mindful of the following issues:
The need to maintain leverage to address “doing business” issues.
The need to avoid overwhelming available infrastructure with increased traffic.
The special needs of developing nations, and those in transition, to fully open markets.
The need for a level playing field.
The dependency of remote island States on air transportation.
The impact on labour interests.
Issues of national pride and sovereignty.
None of these issues were considered insurmountable and to explore the effects of further liberalisation the participants asked IATA to develop studies on 12 countries to examine the impact of Air Service Agreement (ASA) liberalisation on the aviation industry, air passengers, and the wider economy, in each country.
From the report on Air Liberalization from IATA. IATA!!!!!!!!!! Yep... no research here... LOL. Oh man... keep this guy out of airplanes please!
1. Introductiuon At the invitation of IATA, representatives of 14 nation states and the EU met at the Agenda for Freedom Summit in Istanbul on the 25th and 26th of October 2008 to discuss the further liberalisation of the aviation industry. The participants agreed that further liberalisation of the international aviation market was generally desirable, bringing benefits to the aviation industry, to consumers and to the wider economy. In doing so, the participants were also mindful of the following issues:
The need to maintain leverage to address “doing business” issues.
The need to avoid overwhelming available infrastructure with increased traffic.
The special needs of developing nations, and those in transition, to fully open markets.
The need for a level playing field.
The dependency of remote island States on air transportation.
The impact on labour interests.
Issues of national pride and sovereignty.
None of these issues were considered insurmountable and to explore the effects of further liberalisation the participants asked IATA to develop studies on 12 countries to examine the impact of Air Service Agreement (ASA) liberalisation on the aviation industry, air passengers, and the wider economy, in each country.
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Personally, I think it's idiotic to compare a market like Canada with the UAE in terms of 'how many airlines serve' either country or specific city pairing.
The UAE is insignificant.
109 airlines provide work for DNATA and fuel sales. Not to mention the duty free shops. Most of it transient traffic and therefore the crux of the matter.
Some of the above comparisons are ridiculous.
We have enough service to the UAE from this country.
No matter what stats you wish to use.
No matter how you wish to slice it.
There is no level playing field.
There never was a level playing field.
There never will be a level playing field.
It's irrelevant.
Willie
The UAE is insignificant.
109 airlines provide work for DNATA and fuel sales. Not to mention the duty free shops. Most of it transient traffic and therefore the crux of the matter.
Some of the above comparisons are ridiculous.
We have enough service to the UAE from this country.
No matter what stats you wish to use.
No matter how you wish to slice it.
There is no level playing field.
There never was a level playing field.
There never will be a level playing field.
It's irrelevant.
Willie
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The UAE is insignificant. And canada is? When you live abroad, the only time you hear about canada is if it's about gay marriage or celine dion. If being a place where homosexuals can be married legally is significant, then i guess canada is.
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Willie, you are absolutely correct, it IS an irrelevant point arguing the toss over how many airlines serve which airports.
The problem is that our alleged aviation 'expert' Desert, used that very argument as his main point of attack, and now it seems wishes to change the subject..... (without admitting to his error - no change there then!)
Now, I'm sure you don't expect us to let that pass without comment do you? I know you wouldn't so why should I?
The problem is that our alleged aviation 'expert' Desert, used that very argument as his main point of attack, and now it seems wishes to change the subject..... (without admitting to his error - no change there then!)
Now, I'm sure you don't expect us to let that pass without comment do you? I know you wouldn't so why should I?
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Oblasspop…your cosying up to Willie is sickening! But thanks for posting yet again, nothing of value.
BTW..I also agree, the comparison of how many airlines is not really relevant. My point was, if you look at the amount of International carriers serving Canada, its hard to say that Air Canada is protected by its gov’t. My original assertion was (for your benefit here Oblasspop..since your memory is really short):
“Canada welcomes fair and balanced competition”.
(for your benefit Oblasspop… please stay after class and re read my post quoting from the IATA Conference on Air Liberalization). I was only shooting you down(again) regarding your comparison from wiki. The point about ASA’s/alliances/and geographic location stands. Those are the reasons there are more airlines on your list.
Willie is making the point again, which has been my own as well. UAE is flow through, not a destination. Therefore current service is sufficient.
I think your getting all wound up again Oblass.. time to take another break.
Lesson on UAE economics: This morning in the UAE National:
“Etihad Airways is on track to report profitable earnings BEFORE ITS AIRCRAFT COSTS ARE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT…”
Someone please change the title of the thread. LOL
BTW..I also agree, the comparison of how many airlines is not really relevant. My point was, if you look at the amount of International carriers serving Canada, its hard to say that Air Canada is protected by its gov’t. My original assertion was (for your benefit here Oblasspop..since your memory is really short):
“Canada welcomes fair and balanced competition”.
(for your benefit Oblasspop… please stay after class and re read my post quoting from the IATA Conference on Air Liberalization). I was only shooting you down(again) regarding your comparison from wiki. The point about ASA’s/alliances/and geographic location stands. Those are the reasons there are more airlines on your list.
Willie is making the point again, which has been my own as well. UAE is flow through, not a destination. Therefore current service is sufficient.
I think your getting all wound up again Oblass.. time to take another break.
Lesson on UAE economics: This morning in the UAE National:
“Etihad Airways is on track to report profitable earnings BEFORE ITS AIRCRAFT COSTS ARE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT…”
Someone please change the title of the thread. LOL
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Double standard 1:
The AC CEO is complaining about higher taxes on Canadian Airports, compared to the ones in the USA. He asks for reduction at home. Note that he does not cite unfair competition on behalf of the USA, nooooo, but he does on the same issue referring to the UAE.
Double standard 2:
He complains about Canadians crossing the border to Buffalo, Niagra and Seattle, to catch cheaper USA flights. Proof that the Canadian customer just wants cheaper flights and more connections, he doesn't give a hoot about AC if it hits his wallet, as the naive statement of the CEO sounds referring to EK/EY.
Double standard 3:
All critics of more rights for ME carriers state the unbalance of flight interest and trade, apparently Canada cannot get out as much as the ME carriers get. Now what about i.e. cars? How many cars does the UAE sell in Canada (zilch), compared to the Honda MRVs, Ford Edges and Flexes that are all manufactured in Canada? How many Canadian students get their training in the UAE in exchange for the many UAE students who pay big money for it? Just a few, its mainly some flight students trained at CAE, but again, that's a Canadian company, isn't it? How many UAE citizens work for Canadian companies, compared to the apparently 20000+ Canadians making money in the UAE?
Double standard 4:
Evoking treatment of people and working conditions as unfair advantage is walking a thin line when we consider a stroll through some Inuit villages, let alone any seal hunt ...
The trade unbalance Canada - UAE is so far off that any reference to exchange rights as inhibitor to grant more landing rights just evaporates.
To compete in an open sky environment it takes first of all a good product. AC might start there.
If you want to rectify some unbalance, let the CAA do an audit at the GCAA. By audit I mean a REAL one, not the FAA fig leaf. There's enough mud to be found to have some leverage about the number AND quality of ME aircraft flying into Canada. That would also benefit the Canadian customer.
I do not appreciate the way the UAE proceeds, but it's not by lowering yourself to the same level that you will earn any respect from non Canadians.
The AC CEO is complaining about higher taxes on Canadian Airports, compared to the ones in the USA. He asks for reduction at home. Note that he does not cite unfair competition on behalf of the USA, nooooo, but he does on the same issue referring to the UAE.
Double standard 2:
He complains about Canadians crossing the border to Buffalo, Niagra and Seattle, to catch cheaper USA flights. Proof that the Canadian customer just wants cheaper flights and more connections, he doesn't give a hoot about AC if it hits his wallet, as the naive statement of the CEO sounds referring to EK/EY.
Double standard 3:
All critics of more rights for ME carriers state the unbalance of flight interest and trade, apparently Canada cannot get out as much as the ME carriers get. Now what about i.e. cars? How many cars does the UAE sell in Canada (zilch), compared to the Honda MRVs, Ford Edges and Flexes that are all manufactured in Canada? How many Canadian students get their training in the UAE in exchange for the many UAE students who pay big money for it? Just a few, its mainly some flight students trained at CAE, but again, that's a Canadian company, isn't it? How many UAE citizens work for Canadian companies, compared to the apparently 20000+ Canadians making money in the UAE?
Double standard 4:
Evoking treatment of people and working conditions as unfair advantage is walking a thin line when we consider a stroll through some Inuit villages, let alone any seal hunt ...
The trade unbalance Canada - UAE is so far off that any reference to exchange rights as inhibitor to grant more landing rights just evaporates.
To compete in an open sky environment it takes first of all a good product. AC might start there.
If you want to rectify some unbalance, let the CAA do an audit at the GCAA. By audit I mean a REAL one, not the FAA fig leaf. There's enough mud to be found to have some leverage about the number AND quality of ME aircraft flying into Canada. That would also benefit the Canadian customer.
I do not appreciate the way the UAE proceeds, but it's not by lowering yourself to the same level that you will earn any respect from non Canadians.