American Pilots at Emirates
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Northbeach has many valuable assessments about living and working in the middle east, and...my thirty years plus in the area find his comments spot on.
Americans intending on working in the middle east should read and understand Northbeach's comments very carefully.
I would also add...join whatever airline you desire as a direct entry Captain...it makes life far more rewarding.
Does this annoy the First Officers already there?
Yes, but they will get over it.
If they don't?
Why would you care?
Americans intending on working in the middle east should read and understand Northbeach's comments very carefully.
I would also add...join whatever airline you desire as a direct entry Captain...it makes life far more rewarding.
Does this annoy the First Officers already there?
Yes, but they will get over it.
If they don't?
Why would you care?
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I have been in the Middle East for a total of about 12 years. I completely agree with Northbeach. TRUE TOLERANCE is the key. I love the US but I also love living in the UAE.
Join Date: May 2003
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Hi!
1.
Yes. Things are sometimes a LOT different between the US and the rest of the world. There are, virtually, NO SOs or Relief Officers in the US. Every airline hires guys as an FO, and then they move to Capt when they have the seniority (a few, usually smaller and crappier airlines sometimes are forced to hire DECs...NOT happening at Delta, American, FedEx, etc.).
Some airlines type all their new FOs (Compass, for example), and/or on certain airframes (Atlas on the 747-400s) the FOs get typed right away, so they can act as the Relief Capt (1 Capt, 2 typed FOs on a leg).
2. Just read of interesting EK developments with regards to US pilots...info coming from "Open Houses" in the US. They are giving a good representation of the "bad stuff", it seems, from attendee comments. EK is also saying they are in GREAT NEED OF PILOTS...admitting it right out in the open.
There is an MD-11? sim in Atlanta, I believe it was. EK told the attendees that ANYONE that meets the minimums can come and do a sim assesment. That is ALL that was said about the sim.
I THINK what that means is that if you meet the mins, and you pass the assesment, then they will give you an interview....so that guys like me (never have been on the shortlist in over two years) could do the sim, pass, and have an interview...whereas if we sit around waiting we might never get the call.
Also, I am ASSUMING that if you pass this ATL sim assesment, none is needed during your DXB interview.
IF this is the purpose of the sim assesment, it seems like a good idea to me.
Comments welcome!
Have a Nice Day!
cliff
LFW
1.
I didnt know that the previously mentioned RJ guys could start as FOs on heavy iron with FedEx. I would have expected them to start as relief/second officer. Anyway... good on them mate
Some airlines type all their new FOs (Compass, for example), and/or on certain airframes (Atlas on the 747-400s) the FOs get typed right away, so they can act as the Relief Capt (1 Capt, 2 typed FOs on a leg).
2. Just read of interesting EK developments with regards to US pilots...info coming from "Open Houses" in the US. They are giving a good representation of the "bad stuff", it seems, from attendee comments. EK is also saying they are in GREAT NEED OF PILOTS...admitting it right out in the open.
There is an MD-11? sim in Atlanta, I believe it was. EK told the attendees that ANYONE that meets the minimums can come and do a sim assesment. That is ALL that was said about the sim.
I THINK what that means is that if you meet the mins, and you pass the assesment, then they will give you an interview....so that guys like me (never have been on the shortlist in over two years) could do the sim, pass, and have an interview...whereas if we sit around waiting we might never get the call.
Also, I am ASSUMING that if you pass this ATL sim assesment, none is needed during your DXB interview.
IF this is the purpose of the sim assesment, it seems like a good idea to me.
Comments welcome!
Have a Nice Day!
cliff
LFW
atp,
Just in terms of the US being different, are you aware it is about the only jurisdiction in the world where you can have F/Os that do NOT have type ratings?
Just in terms of the US being different, are you aware it is about the only jurisdiction in the world where you can have F/Os that do NOT have type ratings?
Join Date: May 2003
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yes...forgot about that.....now ALL Fos get type ratings in US...just called "FO Type rating" for normal SIC FOs. In the above examples the FOs were getting ATP PIC Type ratings and able to act as Capt.
The "Relief Pilots"...they are FOs and only need Frozen ATPL???? They get a PIC Type Rating (Group 1). Is that correct?
Thanx!
cliff
LFW
The "Relief Pilots"...they are FOs and only need Frozen ATPL???? They get a PIC Type Rating (Group 1). Is that correct?
Thanx!
cliff
LFW
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Wizofoz
Typical Australian parochial attitude. You know nothing of the US Part 121 FO training requirements. It sh!ts all over Australia's "we are worlds best practice" BS FO training.
You couldn't resist putting the boot in to the US system could you, on a completely unrelated thread? Pathetic.
Typical Australian parochial attitude. You know nothing of the US Part 121 FO training requirements. It sh!ts all over Australia's "we are worlds best practice" BS FO training.
You couldn't resist putting the boot in to the US system could you, on a completely unrelated thread? Pathetic.
Geez Brindy, was that really necessary?
I simply pointed out (and was, by others at least, politley informed my information was out of date) that most places require a type rating for FOs. The US used to be one of the few places that didn't, but apparently they now do. Good thing, though "Second in command" type ratings sound a lot like the old "Second class endorsement" you used to get in Aus.
Fact is I have much more experience operating under JCAB, JAR and UAE GCAA rules than I do Aussie these days, and under all of these, FOs recieve a full type rating.
Not defending the Aussie system at all as, these days, I don't really know what the Aussie system IS.
Any particular reason you felt the need to rip my head off?
I simply pointed out (and was, by others at least, politley informed my information was out of date) that most places require a type rating for FOs. The US used to be one of the few places that didn't, but apparently they now do. Good thing, though "Second in command" type ratings sound a lot like the old "Second class endorsement" you used to get in Aus.
Fact is I have much more experience operating under JCAB, JAR and UAE GCAA rules than I do Aussie these days, and under all of these, FOs recieve a full type rating.
Not defending the Aussie system at all as, these days, I don't really know what the Aussie system IS.
Any particular reason you felt the need to rip my head off?
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The training and the required check flight given to US f/o's in 121 airline ops prior to them being allowed on the line was of equivalent standard to any type ride which was endorsed on ones licence. It was ICAO that asked the FAA to bring "into line" the type licence endorsement and was happy with the training already given to allow only a submission of paperwork to add the type to the licence.
So even by ICAO standards it would appear that "non licence endorsed" f/o's were already trained to the required SIC standard.
Does it make you a better, safer, more accomplished pilot if you have the words written on the licence?
So even by ICAO standards it would appear that "non licence endorsed" f/o's were already trained to the required SIC standard.
Does it make you a better, safer, more accomplished pilot if you have the words written on the licence?
We are getting a little derailed here!
No IH it doesn't and I didn't say it did.
atpcliff made a point that certain US airlines "Typed" their FOs while others didn't, so it obviously made a difference in HIS mind. I simply pointed out that some airlines "Typing" their FOs didn't make America different (which, I assumed, was the intent of his statement) but, rather, the fact that in the past most airlines DIDN'T give formal type ratings was what made their system unique.
Does the word "Context" mean anything to you?
Also, atp, the use of SOs and "Cruise FOs" (same thing) is largely confined to Australia and Hong Kong. Most places have, at a minimum, two Type Rated FOs on the flight deck at any time, and at EK we usually have 4 man crews consisting of two Captains and two FOs.
What was being pointed out to you was that, for Aircraft utilising an F/E, usual practice in the States was for that position to be filled by a Pilot, usually refered to as the S/O.
Most other places had dedicated F/Es, usually with a maintenence background.
No IH it doesn't and I didn't say it did.
atpcliff made a point that certain US airlines "Typed" their FOs while others didn't, so it obviously made a difference in HIS mind. I simply pointed out that some airlines "Typing" their FOs didn't make America different (which, I assumed, was the intent of his statement) but, rather, the fact that in the past most airlines DIDN'T give formal type ratings was what made their system unique.
Does the word "Context" mean anything to you?
Also, atp, the use of SOs and "Cruise FOs" (same thing) is largely confined to Australia and Hong Kong. Most places have, at a minimum, two Type Rated FOs on the flight deck at any time, and at EK we usually have 4 man crews consisting of two Captains and two FOs.
What was being pointed out to you was that, for Aircraft utilising an F/E, usual practice in the States was for that position to be filled by a Pilot, usually refered to as the S/O.
Most other places had dedicated F/Es, usually with a maintenence background.
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I'll leave it to somebody else to correct you wiz it really aint worth my time. I'll also take a stab at explaining why you think people "have a go" at you. It's because your missives APPEAR to come across as arrogant. Your view may differ.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the GCAA doesn't give out a "full" type rating either to the FO's. It's a P2 type rating, which is the same as an SIC type rating from the FAA.
Yes Fred, That's right.
I wasn't aware that the FAA had introduced the SIC rating. FOs on smaller, two crew aircraft still don't require a type rating, though soon will, largely in the wake of the Colegen DH-8 crash.
Entirerly possible. Written English can be very imprecise when it comes to conveying intent rather than just information,as any flame war on the internet will show you. I don't claim any great gift wrt communication.
But could Brindibillas response be taken as anythiong but hostile towards what was a simple (but, as it turns out, partially incorrect) statement, the intended recipient of which took in the spirit it was intended?
I wasn't aware that the FAA had introduced the SIC rating. FOs on smaller, two crew aircraft still don't require a type rating, though soon will, largely in the wake of the Colegen DH-8 crash.
I'll also take a stab at explaining why you think people "have a go" at you. It's because your missives APPEAR to come across as arrogant.
But could Brindibillas response be taken as anythiong but hostile towards what was a simple (but, as it turns out, partially incorrect) statement, the intended recipient of which took in the spirit it was intended?
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It still seems most of the negative people come out on the forums, but I still wanted to say 'thank you' for additional information.
The only advice I would have as someone looking into EK (job fair ATL in AUG for me) is to talk to any friends you have at EK. I try to ask questions as they come up.
I often hear that 'it is not home, but we are enjoying it'. I find that I am a very adaptable person, so I will continue to hope for the best, but expect the worst. The middle ground should not be disappointing then.
The only advice I would have as someone looking into EK (job fair ATL in AUG for me) is to talk to any friends you have at EK. I try to ask questions as they come up.
I often hear that 'it is not home, but we are enjoying it'. I find that I am a very adaptable person, so I will continue to hope for the best, but expect the worst. The middle ground should not be disappointing then.
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You guys need to get over the whole WB captain mentality. IT is NOT the Holy Grail in this business. Time off is.
Our upgrade times in America take a lot longer for a number of reasons the most of which is fewer WB aircraft and a more mature market (lower growth rates). But that all gets offset by retirement booms, of which 4 major airlines will be experiencing in the mid to latter part of this decade.
But if pay is your main driver, 737 skippers in the US make more than WB in the ME. I use to fly in the M.E. and gave it up years ago to put my time in at a US major. Sure it was hard at first, low pay, crappy schedules out of NYC, etc. But it is now paying off. My seniority can hold a jr capt position, a medium seniority WB FO, or a sr NB FO slot. As a jr Capt, I only got 12 days off per month (the minimum by US standards). As a sr NB fo, I get 18-21 days off per month, not including vacation, and home eve night if I want. If I want to make as much as I was as a capt, I just fly a few extra days. Otherwise I get by quite handsomely on my FO salary without flying any overtime.
Guys in the ME and India love to poke at the US and say what a joke it is to be a pilot there. I have worked as a pilot in Europe, M.E, and Asia. Hands down the US is the best place to work. I could care less about flying all night in a WB. I did that for 2000 hrs and after the first 300 the honeymoon was over. For me it's all about days off (and not spending those days off catching up on sleep/ nod clock issues).
If you plan to leave Eagle, IMO, you should shoot for a US major. 40% of the CAL/ UAL list and nearly the same amount of the DAL list will retire in the next 10 yrs. Same goes for USAir and even more will retire at AMR. The future is bright for hiring in the US it may just take a few years for the recruitment to gain any traction. Certainly very little will happen before 2012/13.
Any country other than your own can take years to grow into. The M.E. is
especially hard for yanks. Not as hard for Europeans because it's a much, much shorter trip home for them. And life in their countries is generally too expensive anyway, so they see value in living abroad. But life for you will be condsiderably more costly than in the US, even if tax free. And the additional pay is not as relevant as some suggest. At the end of the day it's what you SAVE, not what you make. That said, you'll be so tired working for EK, there won't be much time to spend what you're making... so perhaps you will save more that way.
3 yr upgrade, 7, 10, 12 yr upgrade. Who cares? QOL trumps seat and equipment every time. Btw, we have many guys at my airline who made WB commander in the 8-12 yr time frame. Heck, I made 737 skipper in 3. It's all about timing (the boom) and a while lotta' luck.
All that said, I completely agree with what NorthBeach wrote. He is a very eloquent writer and I couldn't have said it better myself.
I enjoyed my time living in the M.E., just as I enjoyed living in 4 other regions outside America. The cultural differences were never really an issue for me and I made it a point to minimize socializing with other Americans so as to blend in and learn the locals. But for me it all boiled down to QOL. And that Is something the pilot groups of other nations simpy don't fully grasp yet. The US
Carriers offer the most in terms of days off, way more. Yet we all fly the same number of hours annually. That is something that has been negotiated through years of hard work by the labor unions. Of course, you have to put in the time to build seniority to get those days off but 5, even 10, yrs goes but in a snap.
Suddenly you look back one day and see the fruits of your decisions.
Our upgrade times in America take a lot longer for a number of reasons the most of which is fewer WB aircraft and a more mature market (lower growth rates). But that all gets offset by retirement booms, of which 4 major airlines will be experiencing in the mid to latter part of this decade.
But if pay is your main driver, 737 skippers in the US make more than WB in the ME. I use to fly in the M.E. and gave it up years ago to put my time in at a US major. Sure it was hard at first, low pay, crappy schedules out of NYC, etc. But it is now paying off. My seniority can hold a jr capt position, a medium seniority WB FO, or a sr NB FO slot. As a jr Capt, I only got 12 days off per month (the minimum by US standards). As a sr NB fo, I get 18-21 days off per month, not including vacation, and home eve night if I want. If I want to make as much as I was as a capt, I just fly a few extra days. Otherwise I get by quite handsomely on my FO salary without flying any overtime.
Guys in the ME and India love to poke at the US and say what a joke it is to be a pilot there. I have worked as a pilot in Europe, M.E, and Asia. Hands down the US is the best place to work. I could care less about flying all night in a WB. I did that for 2000 hrs and after the first 300 the honeymoon was over. For me it's all about days off (and not spending those days off catching up on sleep/ nod clock issues).
If you plan to leave Eagle, IMO, you should shoot for a US major. 40% of the CAL/ UAL list and nearly the same amount of the DAL list will retire in the next 10 yrs. Same goes for USAir and even more will retire at AMR. The future is bright for hiring in the US it may just take a few years for the recruitment to gain any traction. Certainly very little will happen before 2012/13.
Any country other than your own can take years to grow into. The M.E. is
especially hard for yanks. Not as hard for Europeans because it's a much, much shorter trip home for them. And life in their countries is generally too expensive anyway, so they see value in living abroad. But life for you will be condsiderably more costly than in the US, even if tax free. And the additional pay is not as relevant as some suggest. At the end of the day it's what you SAVE, not what you make. That said, you'll be so tired working for EK, there won't be much time to spend what you're making... so perhaps you will save more that way.
3 yr upgrade, 7, 10, 12 yr upgrade. Who cares? QOL trumps seat and equipment every time. Btw, we have many guys at my airline who made WB commander in the 8-12 yr time frame. Heck, I made 737 skipper in 3. It's all about timing (the boom) and a while lotta' luck.
All that said, I completely agree with what NorthBeach wrote. He is a very eloquent writer and I couldn't have said it better myself.
I enjoyed my time living in the M.E., just as I enjoyed living in 4 other regions outside America. The cultural differences were never really an issue for me and I made it a point to minimize socializing with other Americans so as to blend in and learn the locals. But for me it all boiled down to QOL. And that Is something the pilot groups of other nations simpy don't fully grasp yet. The US
Carriers offer the most in terms of days off, way more. Yet we all fly the same number of hours annually. That is something that has been negotiated through years of hard work by the labor unions. Of course, you have to put in the time to build seniority to get those days off but 5, even 10, yrs goes but in a snap.
Suddenly you look back one day and see the fruits of your decisions.
Last edited by Geebz; 2nd Aug 2010 at 22:06.
