To: Air Arabia pilots. From: UAE ACC

[BlueSkye]

My my my, what a slugfest this has become. I step out for a short while and look what happens. Anyhoo...

Sataybox: "When ready" is 100% ICAO.

Mach5.5: Bring the 200 aircraft, but don't spit your dummy when you land at Al Ain for the fourth time after a fuel diversion. Reminder: "Low on fuel" means nothing. It's Pan or Mayday.

kit330: Cry me a friggin river. You so poignantly ask why you should descend earlier than you have to. Well, last time I checked ATC instructions was not something that's open for discussion. Just because the rest of the world has gone all bunny hugging and PC doesn't mean that ATC has gone that route as well. An instruction is still that. It sure as $hit is not Air Traffic Discussion.

And frankly, I don't give a rat's posterior how ridiculous those instructions are to you. Your opinion on those instructions is what I say it is. I know it irks you to no end but there is sweet all you can do about it, just suck it up. It might come as a shock to you but no ATC in the world (that I know of) will ever give a clearance without a reason. There is always a reason. And no, I'm not going to discuss that reason with you or anyone else for that matter. Therefore, next time you hear : "Arabia 666, descend FL150", respond with "Arabia 666, descending FL150".

Deep breath and finally. All pilots need to understand that this whole ATC business is nothing personal. If you have issues with being told what to do, I suggest you correspond with your local ICAO rep and ask him to put the wheels in motion towards ATD. Failing that, I suggest you read it back and comply.

[NG_Kaptain]

My philosophy is keep transmissions to a minimum, comply with clearances and use proper RT phraseology. This airspace is getting very crowded and inattention to calls doesn't help. It is a real challenge flying in to the region and it does nobody any good to have extraneous calls.
One of my pet peeves is how some of our neighbours to the east have to answer each call with "confirm", eg "Subcontinent 123 contact so and so centre on 123.7" and they almost always answer "Sub 123 freq 123.7 confirm" Leads to multiple unnecessary calls.
And as a professional forum we don't need "text speak". This is for kit 330.

[loc22550]

There is indeed sometime lack of discipline when it comes to radio transmission in this area...:
Maybe we should try to stick to the following golden rules..:

-LISTEN a few second BEFORE you transmit expecially when you switch to another frequency!(we are not alone in the sky).
-CALL sign FIRST when you ask for a clearance or anything to ATC.
-CALL sign at the end of the transmission when you read back a Clearance.
-BE CONCISE when you talk!
-Stick to Standard phraseology.
-Read back the Clearance only NOT the informations! (not need to read back the wind or such a think...they are NOT clearance!).
-AVOID such " DESCENT 280!" When you heard that without using the word "FLIGHT LEVEL" you just wonder if the guy is gone descent to FL280 or to FL 080...?

[TWRFLWR]

I work with the Air Arabia pilots every day, as well, and I have found that they are very professional and consistently follow instructions without question, so maybe there's some disconnect in communication where you're concerned. It disappoints me to see this "US v THEM" mentality and ultimately we are here to help eachother out and ensure we do it safely.

Yes, I've had my days when I have just wanted to rip a pilot's head off, and I'm sure there have been days where they've felt the same of me...we all have our bad days. At the end of the day, if you try to keep an optimistic attitude, keep an open line of communication (and use a degree of patience, especially with new pilots..we can all tell who those are...), politely question why pilot's may be confused by your request, and remember that we are here to provide a service and provide it well, you may find your experiences with all flyers (not just Air Arabia pilots) much more pleasant. Don't forget that some Air Arabia pilots have been flying much longer than some Emirates, Etihad, etc pilots. There seemed to be an underlying assumption that they're not as experienced....just food for thought.

Not here to argue, just here to maybe help you see these types of situations differently and react more positively in the future.

[ferris]

I know this is going to sound a little "do as I say, not as I do", but RE; listening out- we are often working one-up. Pilots never are (trainers with cadets excl. ). This is one of the last places in the world where controllers work without co-ords in such a busy environment. All the centres in the area are constantly adding staff, but it's eternal catch-up. On that note; expect more restrictive ATM procedures (level caps/descent requirements etc etc). The days of coming back from wherever and getting unrestricted descents, free speed etc are long gone out here. It's just going to get worse and worse.
As far as the gripes about sequences: You guys look at the one ahead, maybe the one behind, and scratch your head at whats being done to you. We look at all 30 of you in the sequence. If you truly want to understand, then make an appointment to go to your centre and look. If you can't be bothered, then just don't sweat it accept that there is rhyme and reason. Second-guessing without any real understanding is not only counter-productive, it's unprofessional.

[divingduck]

Blue Skye

My my my, what a slugfest this has become. I step out for a short while and look what happens. Anyhoo...

Sataybox: "When ready" is 100% ICAO.

Mach5.5: Bring the 200 aircraft, but don't spit your dummy when you land at Al Ain for the fourth time after a fuel diversion. Reminder: "Low on fuel" means nothing. It's Pan or Mayday.

kit330: Cry me a friggin river. You so poignantly ask why you should descend earlier than you have to. Well, last time I checked ATC instructions was not something that's open for discussion. Just because the rest of the world has gone all bunny hugging and PC doesn't mean that ATC has gone that route as well. An instruction is still that. It sure as $hit is not Air Traffic Discussion.

And frankly, I don't give a rat's posterior how ridiculous those instructions are to you. Your opinion on those instructions is what I say it is. I know it irks you to no end but there is sweet all you can do about it, just suck it up. It might come as a shock to you but no ATC in the world (that I know of) will ever give a clearance without a reason. There is always a reason. And no, I'm not going to discuss that reason with you or anyone else for that matter. Therefore, next time you hear : "Arabia 666, descend FL150", respond with "Arabia 666, descending FL150".

Deep breath and finally. All pilots need to understand that this whole ATC business is nothing personal. If you have issues with being told what to do, I suggest you correspond with your local ICAO rep and ask him to put the wheels in motion towards ATD. Failing that, I suggest you read it back and comply.

Love your work

[dustyprops]

So what we're saying in a nutshell is this -

i) airspace around here too busy, and atc do the best they can given the amount of airplanes trying to get in.

ii) Air Arabia are cr@p


Got it I think

[vaschandi]

Call sign at the end

LOC 22550

"Call sign at the end of the transmission when you read back a clearance"

From which source did you get that?

[Canoehead]

Couple of points:

- Been here three years, no problems with Air Arabia, nice bunch to work with, actually.

- Not correct to say that Desdi and Bubin are the only way in. DXB TCU will constantly tell UAE Center to send SHJ traffic 'north of track'. However, UAE guys will say that once aircraft are in the holds, it becomes too difficult to vector SHJ traffic north of the hold. Therefore, SHJ traffic holds, due to capacity problems at DXB. Go figure.

- Why we don't have an entry point to SHJ, like, say RAK, or wherever, is way beyond me.

- We are stuck with procedures from the 1970's. And I won't tell you why that won't change.

- Finally, just remember that the angry and vitriolic comments you read in this thread are not representative of the majority. I guess Pprune is as good a tool for venting as any, although I tend to prefer single malt.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

RAK entry point

RAK has entry point....???

glf

[Big Footer]

BlueSkye ,

I don't know which is more tragic your post or you attitude , I suggest that you at least show some RESPECT before baffling your way through with your sarcastic remarks . next time try to be more professional .

[Schibulsky]

@big foot

Respect???
The ATCO's job is NOT to take care of pilots overblown egos...so take his advice and SUCK IT UP DUDE!
His main point was that he wants to keep the freq clean of all the whining and useless discussions to do his actual job. That sounds pretty professional to me!

[auh_to_auh]

Was with you all the way "Blue Skye", but you lost me on your last post.
It seems you have developed the "I'm God" syndrome.

Even though we are not ATC's most competent pilots would understand why a specific instruction is given. Sometimes they don't make sense but what the heck we follow them anyway.

As far as the lack of communication between UAE and local approach controllers is concerned, well I guess the local habits have crept in (left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing), on many occasions going in to AUH have been told to conform with 250Kt/-13000' by UAE, only to have both cancelled when transfered to Approach.


AUH

[Big Footer]

Schibulsky

Listen, I am sorry for getting so upset, but You are a long way from home .

Vulgar language is universally found to be offensive in professional environments.


Let me Quote your words :

"His main point was that he wants to keep the freq clean of all the whining and useless discussions to do his actual job. That sounds pretty professional to me "

Are you for real !!!?"

[Schibulsky]

What?

Here is what the dictionary says:
suck it up (slang) : to make the effort required to do or deal with something difficult or unpleasant
NOT marked vulgar!
So whats your point?

Blue Sky might have used some "strong language" to make his point

Vulgar language is universally found to be offensive in professional environments.

That might be true for Vatikan Airlines but not for the aviation I know for 25 years

So why do YOU think he wants the whining and discussions to stop?
A. because he feels like god (like somebody suggested)
B. so he can have more time for his coffee and cigarettes
C. to do his fg job

Anyway this whole thread again shows how hard it is for somebody flying high in his shiny silver tube to accept that there is somebody who tells him what to do...

[mensaboy]

It IS rocket science if you were not properly taught correct RT early in your career.

Airlines don't teach proper RT and trainers are more concerned with other things to point out RT deficiencies in new recruits. Therefore many pilots have to learn things by osmosis. They learn nuances by listening to other pilots and now that many pilots make the wrong RT calls, it is no wonder that readbacks and clearances are becoming more of an issue. This is in spite of the fact that radios are so much better than in the past.

Many pilots at my airline don't even make the correct altitude callouts in the cockpit and they are probably the most important calls we make.

Blue, I agree with most of what you posted but even YOU got something wrong and I quote. ''air arabia descending FL150''. That is incorrect because the response should be ''descend FL150, air arabia.'' There are reasons for the correct order of a readback clearance.
#1 ATC (who are human beings) will comprehend and decipher between correct and incorrect readbacks, when the reply is in the same order as the original clearance and it is standard

There are only a few instances when reading back your call sign first is acceptable. For example, the on-ground airways clearance or the ''air arabia 666 is established on the localizer'' radio call. Other than that, your call sign comes at the end of your transmission. That is an ICAO, JAR, FAA rule.

Kit, U must stop typing, dis and dat and watever you conjure up. TYPE OUT THE WORDS! otherwise no one will lend credibility to your posts. From my experience, the vast majority of people who use the language of 13 year old girls, have the same intelligence.

As for the Americans, it is not their fault that their RT is so differrent. They come from what they know and YOU or I would be exactly the same if we spent most of our careers flying in an isolated environment. Most of the Yanks are at least good guys with good attitudes and abilities, in spite of their sometimes bizarre RT calls.

Rule#1 read back clearances in the same order as they were given.

Rule#2 your call sign is YOUR CALL SIGN and it is to be given at the end of a readback. It is NOT Emiratie 666 or Emirates aaahhhhh 666, it's ''Emirates 666''. Why is that so difficult for some pilots?

Rule#3 cut out the BS. ''Hello, this is the Emirates 666 checking in with you''. The rules dictate that the only call is, ''Bahrain control, Emirates 666, FL350''
Brits...... Hello, em, errrr,
Yanks.... OK AHHH, yes sir, undershtand cleared
Canucks.... Rog that
Indians.... Roger cleared, Roger that, Roger ANYTHING (aside from never even listening out before making an RT call)
SA... ''A very good day to you!'' Not just a good day but a very good day! And TO YOU. who the hell else are you talking to?

Rule#4 RT is not a discussion. ''This IS THE Emirates 66'' is unacceptable. ''Checkin in with you'' is unacceptable. ''OK, ah undershtand cleared...'' is unacceptable.

Rule #5 ''SIR'' should never be included in aviation RT, simple as that. The Atlas boys might want to reread that rule because they seem to think they are gaining some favor by saying Sir everytime they speak to ATC.

Rule#6 ''Cleared DOWN to......'' is not a proper RT. Aside from just being wrong it is potentially dangerous because ''DOWN TO'' might be misconstrued as '' DOWN TWO''.

Even minor deviations are potentially hazardous. I don't care one way or another what the standard terminology is, as long as everyone uses it. Non-standard RT causes incidents and accidents and that is a proven fact. Keep in mind that English is not the first language of many pilots or ATC, so therefore it is even more critical in some regions for every one to use standard RT.

By the way, if you are so overloaded that you can't remember your own callsign, then write it down on a piece of paper and stick it somewhere in your line of sight. ''Emirates aahhhhh'' is just embarassing.

[145qrh]

As an old instructor said to me once" never call ATC sir, it will only give them
delusions of adequacy ".

[Bring Back The Biff]

Mensaboy, regarding Rule#6...

I have noticed over the last six months or so ATC in a number of countries are using the word 'to' in their altitude clearances.

I thought that had been ditched years ago in the aftermath of an accident/incident caused by a "descend two two thousand" being interepreted as "descend to 2 thousand" type of thing.

So incensed, I was forced to actually look it up in the ICAO phraseology - and it is according to them - correct.

The wheel keeps turning...

[Sciolistes]

mensaboy,

There are only a few instances when reading back your call sign first is acceptable. For example, the on-ground airways clearance or the ''air arabia 666 is established on the localizer'' radio call. Other than that, your call sign comes at the end of your transmission. That is an ICAO, JAR, FAA rule.

The ICAO and CAP413 docs all say that the callsign comes last for all readbacks.

Bring Back The Biff,
I think you'll find it in UK CAP413 manual, but it wasn't to remove the "to", it was to add "altitude" prefix for all altitude clearances. Also other stuff like "degrees" suffix for all headings ending in zero so they're less likely to be confused with flight levels.

[White Knight]

Except Sciolistes, calling established on the localiser is not the same as reading back "cleared to establish Loc xx Emirates 666" (To use Mensaboy's example - and I have to say I pretty much agree with that long post of yours Mensa....)