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Etihad incident in JFK 17 June

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Etihad incident in JFK 17 June

Old 20th Jun 2010, 18:45
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Etihad incident in JFK 17 June

What happened to EY101 in JFK on 17Jun? Heard they landed short and hit the runway end lights.
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Old 20th Jun 2010, 20:09
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Yep....took some rwy edge lights too...
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Old 20th Jun 2010, 20:35
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The A Team crew on flight information shows a DHD back to AUH. Ouch!
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Old 20th Jun 2010, 22:42
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little while back there was a circular from airbus of pilots losing there "piloting skills".... no wonder, now we depend on Papi/Vasi/ILS ...

can't even remember the last time I used an ADF for an approach... let alone judge the touchdown point without the "ball"

guess if you have never flow without this high tech stuff then it just makes it a bit more difficult.

good luck guys..must have been a long flight back to AUH.
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 06:32
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little while back there was a circular from airbus of pilots losing there "piloting skills".... no wonder, now we depend on Papi/Vasi/ILS ...
Well, while I agree with you that the profession is changing, pilots have been landing short ever since the airplane has been around. In fact, the first 747 landed short in seattle during one of its test flights with quite extensive damage. Nobody ever doubted the skill of those pilots.

AUH to JKF is a very long flight, no matter how much in-flight rest you get. And today's airliners are very long (773, A346), it is not as simple and straightforward as making sure things look right.

Considering all the effects that can mess with a pilot's perception during approach, it could happen to anyone.
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 07:01
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Nobody ever doubted the skill of those pilots.
Boeing did....they fired one, and he went to Lockheed, for more $.
Some win...some lose.
Limited hand flying skills in any type can leave many pilots out of the loop, with sometimes expensive results.
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 07:36
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And EY 017/19JUN lost contact over LAM in LHr for 15 minutes on both 123.9 and 121.5......
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 08:55
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Here is another version, same same but different

Incident: Etihad A345 at New York on Jun 17th 2010, took out runway edge lights on landing
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 08:59
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Sounds like they didn't land short but instead took out some edge lights dealing with a 20kt crosswind.
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 09:35
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I believe they installed VASI/PAPI/ILS, in order to improve safety, so yes, we rely on these excellent pieces of equipment to guide us down. I don't think removing them, installing NDB's and turning off the runway/approach lights will improve safety, but obviously some posters will disagree.
In Chennai some years ago they had a temp displaced threshold with no approach lights, no temp PAPI, and just a LOC/DME. Night landings in hazy/misty/foggy conditions.
I'm a chicken, so I always opted for the VOR RWY 25.
Two 747's (that I know of) landed short of the displaced threshold. I watched a Blue Dart 737 nearly doing the same, and this was their home base.
Night landings without anything to guide you down is a risky business. For most of us. No worries for the heros of aviation, apparently.
Not really related to this incident, I know.

Good luck in AUH guys! Hopefully EY will use this incident to see if they can improve their operation, but I doubt it. A ticket home, more likely, if the pilot was not a UAE citizen.
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 10:42
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EY will never learn from there mistakes, but they will blame it on the pilots, and they will forget there bad hiring practice and some bad command upgrades as well.
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 11:53
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EY will never learn from there mistakes
Disagree. They usually do. After interviewing the pilots, they will decide about what is going to happen next.

Obviously, the crew will deadhead back after such an incident, and remain grounded until the investigation is completed. That's normal. But before knowing all the details, there's also the possibility that it was not their fault.

Personally, my sympathy is with the pilots, so until the opposite is proven, I believe they are not to blame. Thinking of fatigue, wind gusts, short/narrow runway, there are several factors that can lead to "close shaves".
 
Old 21st Jun 2010, 13:15
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Recently American Airlines declined the same runway due excessive crosswind and declared an emergency. JFK insists on using the 22's/04's when it would be more appropriate to use 31R. I recently landed a 345 on 4R with a gusty crosswind from the NW and in retrospect I should of insisted on 31R.



http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...emergency.html
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 13:40
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Ditto NG Kaptain,

I feel four the guys, when will the powers that be realise that crosswind limits are just that. It doesn't mean every landing below the crosswind limit is safe. Agree with the AA boys and NG's last comment. More of us should refuse landings under those conditions. SYD sometimes can be as guilty as JFK at times, using 16R/34L because politics say so.

See you soon guys.
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 14:12
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New York is a mess! They need to spend some of the landing fees on upgrading and maintaining the navigation aids. All RWY have ILS approaches but none seem to work! So much for safety! 13L needs some PAPI's, doing a carnasie approach at night or during the day with no PAPI's or VASI's when you are tired is asking for trouble.
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 14:21
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It appears it was 04L with an 18 kt crosswind landing. Not unfeasible I guess even for a 'regular' line pilot...
Let's hope they will not suffer from any unfair treatment.

On the other side, as it has been suggested before, yes, basic flying skills are at risk in Etihad! Management and training department are just ignoring this issue and hiding behind 'make a full use of automation' moto.

When you just wanna fly raw data and the guy (instructors incl.) sitting next to you is asking 'what do you wanna prove?' or 'if you have an OPC coming up?'...then you realize that there is a systemic problem...
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 15:12
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Devil Auto land

Etihad Pilots. Does your Company FORCE you to do auto land all the time Pilot Skill
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 15:33
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They do not force you to autoland, on the contrary, but an autoland should be practiced during the first landing after an OPC. Shortfuel is possibly referring to the use of autothrust.
Making one landing before an OPC without autothrust is not going to improve anything during your OPC.
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 17:03
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As said, I was referring to raw data...means AP/FD OFF (A/THR at your discretion)...at least in my documentation.

Originally Posted by Jetjock330
Making one landing before an OPC without autothrust is not going to improve anything during your OPC.
It stands to reason......as for GCAA OPC we can't make it easier, can we?

My point is that if (lack of) basic flying skills is found to be a contributing factor of this incident then it should be a good opportunity for the training dpt to tackle this automation culture...
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Old 21st Jun 2010, 17:29
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SIM

So how does AP and Athrust off help flying skills on landing. On the APP that I will accept, BUT landing? If you want to practise I believe the SIM was created for that otherwise there will be many variant on how to improve pilot skills on line. This could be dangerous. Ciao
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