Death on EK flight 5th June 2010
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: EGCC
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Death on EK flight 5th June 2010
Does anyone have more details on the death of German passenger Gerd Hofmann (name in public domain) who, the three doctors on the same flight who tried to assist claim, died of a heart attack because of
- interference of CC (who insisted on obtaining proof that they were MDs),
- then unusual demand that EK ops in DXB approve of medical assistance on board, and finally
- useless medical kit on board.
Finally, the flight made an unscheduled stop at DEL, where no ambulance was in attendance, only a doctor.
Apparently, the body of Gerd Hofmann is still in Delhi due to nightmarish bureaucracy.
Quite dreadful, if true.
- interference of CC (who insisted on obtaining proof that they were MDs),
- then unusual demand that EK ops in DXB approve of medical assistance on board, and finally
- useless medical kit on board.
Finally, the flight made an unscheduled stop at DEL, where no ambulance was in attendance, only a doctor.
Apparently, the body of Gerd Hofmann is still in Delhi due to nightmarish bureaucracy.
Quite dreadful, if true.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Hotels
Posts: 189
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very sad but a pretty big claim that the CC caused the death bearing in mind:
The sad fact is that most people that have an attack do not survive irrespective of the care given.
Sadly a requirement of the modern world as any number of walts claim to be something they are not when something interesting happens.
Not true for critical situations
The medical kits are as good as any other airline and all the ULR flights have Datalink, automatic defibrillators.
The chances of surviving that heart attack are 34% if your heart attack takes place at a U.S. hospital.
- interference of CC (who insisted on obtaining proof that they were MDs),
- then unusual demand that EK ops in DXB approve of medical assistance on board,
- useless medical kit on board.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not wishing to blow my own trumpet but I 'saved' a guys life by giving him CPR....paramedics arrived 11 minutes after I started CPR..he lived!!! In their words, they told me that I saved his life purely because I kept his heart beating until a defib arrived. It took 4 blasts on said defib to bring him back to life. I was also told that the CPR that I gave prevented him from serious brain damage. I was also told that you cannot 'f**k about' when deciding if to give CPR....that action decides if they live or die ( or live in a vegetive state ) !!! Enough said!!!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: EGCC
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ekwhistleblower:
You have pointed out all the SOPs that would apply. The point is whether they were applied on that flight, or whether the claims of the three doctors (essentially implying that SOPs were not adhered to) are valid.
You have pointed out all the SOPs that would apply. The point is whether they were applied on that flight, or whether the claims of the three doctors (essentially implying that SOPs were not adhered to) are valid.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UAE
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crew are supposed to make use of Medlink and the Tempus system before on-board assistance by medical professionals. IF this story is accurate, maybe that is the gist of what was really happening.
Often there are more "doctors" on board an aircraft than medical professionals. That's because when they hear that a "doctor" is required, every ****wit with a PhD in geology, mathematics, thermodynamics, jingology or whatever presses his callbell and informs the crew, "Yes, I'm a doctor." The crew then have to make sure the passenger is in fact a doctor, not a tosser.
Often there are more "doctors" on board an aircraft than medical professionals. That's because when they hear that a "doctor" is required, every ****wit with a PhD in geology, mathematics, thermodynamics, jingology or whatever presses his callbell and informs the crew, "Yes, I'm a doctor." The crew then have to make sure the passenger is in fact a doctor, not a tosser.
Strange, on my outfit it's just the other way round.
No one ever makes himself known as a doctor until the very moment the captain announces he is going to divert the flight...
No one ever makes himself known as a doctor until the very moment the captain announces he is going to divert the flight...
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The sad fact is that most people that have an attack do not survive irrespective of the care given.
In Phoenix Arizona, 67% of patients who suffer a heart attack survive reasonably well, provided prompt medical attention is received.
Regarding the EK CC,I expect the original 'story' has a few holes,but may well be accurate in many ways.
A lawyers dream.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: On Earth
Age: 78
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fatbus
I believe your comment is out of place, that same kind of person you are degrading may one day save you or one of your family members that is if you have a family. Please don’t judge race or creed before knowing what one can do for others.
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: uae
Posts: 2,777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's got nothing to do about race( you might have assumed the wrong race), it's got to do with legitimate qualifications. Do a little reseach and you will be shocked. I have had dealings in this regard in the past.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: LaLaLand
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Al fakhem, unless you know the true story, unless you've seen the crew at work and know what you are talking about, take a pace back think about what you've said and then think, if I had a heart attack would I be better placed being on board an EK a/c or being in the local mall / pub / gym etc. I know if the worst happed to me I would prefer to be on board, I trust the crew.
Here,here
Before you start slagging off EK crew and procedures suggest you put brain in gear.
Being at the sharp end I've seen all sorts and trust me, we have some pax thinking they've just stepped off the set of ER! so the procedures are there for YOUR safety
Here,here
Before you start slagging off EK crew and procedures suggest you put brain in gear.
Being at the sharp end I've seen all sorts and trust me, we have some pax thinking they've just stepped off the set of ER! so the procedures are there for YOUR safety
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: EGCC
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Al fakhem, unless you know the true story, unless you've seen the crew at work and know what you are talking about, take a pace back think about what you've said and then think, if I had a heart attack would I be better placed being on board an EK a/c or being in the local mall / pub / gym etc. I know if the worst happed to me I would prefer to be on board, I trust the crew.
However, if it helps your state of mind: the version as claimed by the three MDs on board has made it into European newspapers and has, so far, not been refuted by EK.
Guest
Posts: n/a
SOP????? A man is dying--all SOP's get thrown out if it can save his life!
But this isn't the boy scouts. If you try and save the patient, no matter with the best intentions, and he dies anyway, then you damn well better have adhered to the SOPs. Otherwise, you're going to be screwed really bad - because nobody is going to thank you for your civil courage. You're closer to being sued for manslaughter, than to be a hero.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: South of North
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not true!! In most parts of the world if you attempt to save a life in good faith then you are safe legally. In some parts called the 'Good Samaritan' clause.
This doesn't mean you throw common sense out but if the man is dying while everyone stands around trying to call medlink (not working) etc etc then you act. You act in the best interests of the guy that is dying and do so to the best of the abilities of yourself, those around you and within the scope of common sense and the 'rules' if possible.
There is not a court that would hold you responsible provided you did this. In fact in may parts of the world a doctor would be held accountable if he did NOT step forth and attempt to help. The same applies to anyone with any kind of training that might be able to help (or something as basic as a CPR course).
Now we can't comment on this situation because we were not there and I think that in most cases our FA's would handle it well.
But if THREE doctors have come forward and said something was amiss then I believe there may be more to it than meets the eye.
This doesn't mean you throw common sense out but if the man is dying while everyone stands around trying to call medlink (not working) etc etc then you act. You act in the best interests of the guy that is dying and do so to the best of the abilities of yourself, those around you and within the scope of common sense and the 'rules' if possible.
There is not a court that would hold you responsible provided you did this. In fact in may parts of the world a doctor would be held accountable if he did NOT step forth and attempt to help. The same applies to anyone with any kind of training that might be able to help (or something as basic as a CPR course).
Now we can't comment on this situation because we were not there and I think that in most cases our FA's would handle it well.
But if THREE doctors have come forward and said something was amiss then I believe there may be more to it than meets the eye.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: united arab emirates
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the origonal poster raises the point , that red tape gets in the way of common sense. Yes our crew are trained , yes we have equipment on board bla bla. But again one cannot deny that calling Medilink and having them make the decisions is as much about liability as it is about getting assistance. ie by going through the channels and ticking all the boxes , the liability is passed on to Medilink , whilst valuable minutes tick by.
eg , A mate of mine was doing an upgrade loft and just after pushback (with engines started) , the purser advised they have a person at the back who is not breathing and they are attending to it. He elected to pull back on stand immediately and get medical attention. The TRI crtiticized him for not following procedure , as he should have called Medilink as they are our primary source around these events.
Therefore he would prefer you sit there for valuable minutes , calling on the Satnav / liasing with the crew/ advising ATC you have a problem and would like to stop in the lane bla bla bla .
The problem comes down to this. Who will be accountable ? , not " lets use some common sense "
I guarantee in the above example , Medlink will say ,( after the person answering the phone has refered you to the duty physician. and after you have asked the purser who has asked the SFS who will fill out the form ( you know the one with all the beuracracy on it , How old , seat number , any allergies bla bla bla) , medlink will say , " Eer Emirates ... we recommend you go back on stand and we will arrange ."
So if you use your noggin and go back on stand immediately and the person dies , ' you might actually find yourself liable because you did not follow company procedure , ie call medilink "
Damned if you do damned if you dont.
Fly the freighter !!!!!
eg , A mate of mine was doing an upgrade loft and just after pushback (with engines started) , the purser advised they have a person at the back who is not breathing and they are attending to it. He elected to pull back on stand immediately and get medical attention. The TRI crtiticized him for not following procedure , as he should have called Medilink as they are our primary source around these events.
Therefore he would prefer you sit there for valuable minutes , calling on the Satnav / liasing with the crew/ advising ATC you have a problem and would like to stop in the lane bla bla bla .
The problem comes down to this. Who will be accountable ? , not " lets use some common sense "
I guarantee in the above example , Medlink will say ,( after the person answering the phone has refered you to the duty physician. and after you have asked the purser who has asked the SFS who will fill out the form ( you know the one with all the beuracracy on it , How old , seat number , any allergies bla bla bla) , medlink will say , " Eer Emirates ... we recommend you go back on stand and we will arrange ."
So if you use your noggin and go back on stand immediately and the person dies , ' you might actually find yourself liable because you did not follow company procedure , ie call medilink "
Damned if you do damned if you dont.
Fly the freighter !!!!!