Low Vis Ops DXB
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Low Vis Ops DXB
Low Vis in DXB is a medieval disgrace. After vectors from BUB to DES for a 35 MIN hold, it was 130 NM's from DES to 30R this morning.
For sure the most ridiculous low vis ops I have ever encountered in a airport that strives to accommodate more than 800 ops a day.
How emirates can live with this is way beyond me.
Off my chest, thx!
For sure the most ridiculous low vis ops I have ever encountered in a airport that strives to accommodate more than 800 ops a day.
How emirates can live with this is way beyond me.
Off my chest, thx!
Too right, he may be able to fix those chairs in the terminal, get the taxiway widened, but we would need to talk to the head cheese of the GCAA (and he aint it) to get the procedures changed.
the Don
the Don
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Aha. That perhaps explains why I saw a cluster of EK tails at AUH this morning when I was attending a meeting nearby. I thought it strange at the time, having left my home adjacent to DXB airport two hours previously in lovely clear conditions, and found it slightly "misty" around AUH airport which had - I assume - handled these diversions from DXB. IIRC, they were all 773's. (Unless EK and EY are now sharing fleets?)
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In their defence I have to say...........
Passing 10,000ft they said it's now 30R LVO's in force. Radar hdg upwind, a 180 deg turn downwind and a turn onto finals, a few mins later a bump and we were home, well when I say home, back in this dump.
So all in all not too bad. from my point of view that is.
Passing 10,000ft they said it's now 30R LVO's in force. Radar hdg upwind, a 180 deg turn downwind and a turn onto finals, a few mins later a bump and we were home, well when I say home, back in this dump.
So all in all not too bad. from my point of view that is.
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Similar discussion held in the radar room yesterday - it's not because WE don't want to do it any tighter but rather we are not allowed to - regs say the gap must be 15nm (in some instances 20nm) with 2nd at 180knots by 20nm final and 160knots by 15nm to allow a dep in between!
Only so much you can do with that.
Only so much you can do with that.
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Thanks Guy, but I think the problem is not the spacing, rather the fact that we are given an approach time and then not given a standard approach distance.
The normal distance from Bubin to 30R being approx. 40nm. Vectors on this morning were giving approx 100 track miles from the hold. We landed about 30mins after leaving the hold.
What we would prefer, me anyway, is to be left in the hold, given a realistic approach time which is followed by a sensible/regular approach.
Leave us in the hold for another turn but give us something that we, and the FMCs. recognize as a track to land.
Cheers
The normal distance from Bubin to 30R being approx. 40nm. Vectors on this morning were giving approx 100 track miles from the hold. We landed about 30mins after leaving the hold.
What we would prefer, me anyway, is to be left in the hold, given a realistic approach time which is followed by a sensible/regular approach.
Leave us in the hold for another turn but give us something that we, and the FMCs. recognize as a track to land.
Cheers
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Agree with Big Buddha
Stay in the hold, descent at an economical VS clean, and be taken off one at a time (allowing for the seperation 15 - 20nm) for a normal int of the ILS. Save a lot of chatter on freq, hdgs, alt, spd etc, unless this is used as practice training for the new ATC controllers.
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Big Buddha, Jimal Fixit, Capt Groper, Fart Master etc.
Please believe me when I say that we all agree with you!! It would be a hell of a lot simpler for us, too.
Each and every approach controller here will tell you that the biggest single improvement in flow control into this place would be to give us the bottom few levels in the holds and let us pull the traffic out as necessary. Unfortunately, we can't because the guys down the road won't have it! (Not, I hasten to add, the operational ones).
Unless and until the lunatics give up control of the asylum, don't hold your breath.
Please believe me when I say that we all agree with you!! It would be a hell of a lot simpler for us, too.
Each and every approach controller here will tell you that the biggest single improvement in flow control into this place would be to give us the bottom few levels in the holds and let us pull the traffic out as necessary. Unfortunately, we can't because the guys down the road won't have it! (Not, I hasten to add, the operational ones).
Unless and until the lunatics give up control of the asylum, don't hold your breath.
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holding
In response to Fart (&) Captain above, your comments clearly show that you have very little idea of what ATC is (...descent at an economical VS clean...), and even less of an idea of what ATC is in this part of the world!
Your approach plates will show you what the Holding Levels are. These levels (A100 - F250 for BUBIN and DESDI) are religiously enforced. Do the math. When 20nm is required on final app, and 40 nm's is the "normal distance" (according to Buddha), Dubai APP can take 2 on frequency, from the east for RWY 30. Assuming you pilots want to "descent at an economical VS clean", VERY quickly the stacks are full.
Enter other stacks - RASKO (A090 - A130) for eg. That's only 5 airplanes. That's even less if (again) one wants to "descent at an economical VS clean".
The picture I'm trying to draw for you drivers is that the UAE airspace is TINY with zero room for bending procedures (as ATC's do all over the world). I work my arse off at maintaining safety and I WILL get done in for bending the smallest procedure, even after the required coordination, that's just the way it is.
Dubai APP has no choice but to accept and vector traffic all over their CTA (they are not allowed to hold). All possible available space is required.
I urge you to call the centre and arrange for a visit. Every pilot I've ever shown around has left with a different understanding.
'69
Your approach plates will show you what the Holding Levels are. These levels (A100 - F250 for BUBIN and DESDI) are religiously enforced. Do the math. When 20nm is required on final app, and 40 nm's is the "normal distance" (according to Buddha), Dubai APP can take 2 on frequency, from the east for RWY 30. Assuming you pilots want to "descent at an economical VS clean", VERY quickly the stacks are full.
Enter other stacks - RASKO (A090 - A130) for eg. That's only 5 airplanes. That's even less if (again) one wants to "descent at an economical VS clean".
The picture I'm trying to draw for you drivers is that the UAE airspace is TINY with zero room for bending procedures (as ATC's do all over the world). I work my arse off at maintaining safety and I WILL get done in for bending the smallest procedure, even after the required coordination, that's just the way it is.
Dubai APP has no choice but to accept and vector traffic all over their CTA (they are not allowed to hold). All possible available space is required.
I urge you to call the centre and arrange for a visit. Every pilot I've ever shown around has left with a different understanding.
'69
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Guy and ATCO
You have our sympathy and rest assured we have similarly qualified lunatics running our luney bin ....
It is not to criticise your work, it is to improve ours and yours that we speak up.
We know about the restrictions and the missing space. But its us up there having to deal with evaporating booze and we need to be able to CALCULATE. What has been demanded, the 40 -50NM approach out of the hold maximum, is a necessity to any skipper. If we have to integrate the recently experienced 100NM+, then we have to divert earlier and will be in for tea and biscuits, because our office seat cushion warmers will be able to tell us off about going BEFORE minimum fuel. They will not listen to our experience.
We need accurate EATs and a somewhat calculable and reliable approach, otherwise we will all end up with more PANs, which screw up things even more, because taking in chaps ahead of others leads to additional PANs a.s.o.
I know holdings would fill up and the inbound and en route traffic would be infringed. For local ATC however, and for the approach traffic, life would become more predictable and thus safer. The traffic affected earlier en route would have an earlier heads up and could make better arrangements. More ATC would be involved and would start complaining, you would have better amunition to have your w@nker$ finally addressing the problem, and THAT'S what we all need.
Make life simpler for us and yourself in our backyard first, please, strictly according to RARs. The ensuing consequences will only speed things up.
At the moment your airborne collegues are the lowest in the food chain and that's why we are whinging.
Nothing personal, we know you do a great job.
You have our sympathy and rest assured we have similarly qualified lunatics running our luney bin ....
It is not to criticise your work, it is to improve ours and yours that we speak up.
We know about the restrictions and the missing space. But its us up there having to deal with evaporating booze and we need to be able to CALCULATE. What has been demanded, the 40 -50NM approach out of the hold maximum, is a necessity to any skipper. If we have to integrate the recently experienced 100NM+, then we have to divert earlier and will be in for tea and biscuits, because our office seat cushion warmers will be able to tell us off about going BEFORE minimum fuel. They will not listen to our experience.
We need accurate EATs and a somewhat calculable and reliable approach, otherwise we will all end up with more PANs, which screw up things even more, because taking in chaps ahead of others leads to additional PANs a.s.o.
I know holdings would fill up and the inbound and en route traffic would be infringed. For local ATC however, and for the approach traffic, life would become more predictable and thus safer. The traffic affected earlier en route would have an earlier heads up and could make better arrangements. More ATC would be involved and would start complaining, you would have better amunition to have your w@nker$ finally addressing the problem, and THAT'S what we all need.
Make life simpler for us and yourself in our backyard first, please, strictly according to RARs. The ensuing consequences will only speed things up.
At the moment your airborne collegues are the lowest in the food chain and that's why we are whinging.
Nothing personal, we know you do a great job.
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ATCO, thanks for the tactful first line....
Actually, you might use the levels but we are still getting vectored about. Rarely can I get half way round the hold at Desdi before I get vectored around the rest of it.... anyway, what do I know
Remember we are on the same side, well, certainly in Dxb, AUH is another matter
Actually, you might use the levels but we are still getting vectored about. Rarely can I get half way round the hold at Desdi before I get vectored around the rest of it.... anyway, what do I know
Remember we are on the same side, well, certainly in Dxb, AUH is another matter
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Sorry FM. I do lack tact lately. Possibly been doing this too long
Re: ..."vectored around the rest of it"
Simple explanation. When Dubai APP calls for 10/15/20 etc. NM spacing, vectoring you out of the hold (behind traffic ahead of you) is the only way to ensure that no further space is lost.
Question: ATC styles vary and some prefer to give you 3/4 large vectors (I've seen 2 or 3 180' turns given) to create the space. Others prefer to send you to the hold at your own speed only vectoring you out as described above. Which do you prefer?
'69
Re: ..."vectored around the rest of it"
Simple explanation. When Dubai APP calls for 10/15/20 etc. NM spacing, vectoring you out of the hold (behind traffic ahead of you) is the only way to ensure that no further space is lost.
Question: ATC styles vary and some prefer to give you 3/4 large vectors (I've seen 2 or 3 180' turns given) to create the space. Others prefer to send you to the hold at your own speed only vectoring you out as described above. Which do you prefer?
'69
ATCO,
Achieve it how you will, but what we NEED is an accurate idea of when we will be landing.
Aircraft being vectored still use fuel, so if the Expected Approach Time is in fact the Expect To Be Hal Way To Doha time, it is of precious little use to us!
Achieve it how you will, but what we NEED is an accurate idea of when we will be landing.
Aircraft being vectored still use fuel, so if the Expected Approach Time is in fact the Expect To Be Hal Way To Doha time, it is of precious little use to us!