777 or Airbus
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Just think about it a little more deeply than 'what are the rosters like'.... Things change buddy, you need to look further ahead!
But back to the thread. Whatever equipment is irrelevant. If you really need to come, take whatever comes up, you'll hate it both ways very soon. If the company has to reshuffle pilots in the future, they will do it their way and it will make no difference if you're A or B qualified, they'll simply take the cheaper option at that time. Sorry Airbus lovers, but anyone can handle the stick within minutes, it's not rocket science.
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As you see, some people are just born to complain. Dont worry. Congratulations with the job. I am on the airbus for 10 years. Thinks change around here.
The people whining and moaning cant manage their expectations very well. Dont expect favors or gifts from EK. Its a job. Do it safe and well. Stay out of trouble. If you dont like it after a while. , use it as a stepping stone..
The people whining and moaning cant manage their expectations very well. Dont expect favors or gifts from EK. Its a job. Do it safe and well. Stay out of trouble. If you dont like it after a while. , use it as a stepping stone..
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Why's that Pool?
Do you know something Airbus or EK don't? If you are aware of a major technical reason that the A350 won't or cant fly in 2013, then I suggest you impart your wisdom forthwith to the manufacturer and the airline in order that they amend their plans accordingly........
Who knows (not you I hasten to add), maybe it will be delayed a little, but one thing's for certain, there WILL be more AIRBUSES arriving over the next few years than Boeings.....Even if they are just the 50 A380's......No crystal ball, no wishful thinking (I really don't give a stuff what I fly, the money's the same!), and no bullsh1t............... Just FACT! Something that appears to be a bit thin on the ground on occasions here at Pprune
Do you know something Airbus or EK don't? If you are aware of a major technical reason that the A350 won't or cant fly in 2013, then I suggest you impart your wisdom forthwith to the manufacturer and the airline in order that they amend their plans accordingly........
Who knows (not you I hasten to add), maybe it will be delayed a little, but one thing's for certain, there WILL be more AIRBUSES arriving over the next few years than Boeings.....Even if they are just the 50 A380's......No crystal ball, no wishful thinking (I really don't give a stuff what I fly, the money's the same!), and no bullsh1t............... Just FACT! Something that appears to be a bit thin on the ground on occasions here at Pprune
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Now we're talking....
For the benefit of the original poster, let's return to the original question, should I ask for a Boeing class????
Shame on you guys implying a guy should take a job, particularly this job, with hopes for how it is going to get better in the future when some event or other takes place.
Instead, look at the track record for broken promises/contracts, and double-standards of behavior, and any new joiner had best sign on for the job he wants for the long-term, not the one he thinks will come around because of fair play and the changing winds of fortune....
Yeah things will change around here... but for the better???
Tell 'em it's Boeing or I'm not going.
SHR
Shame on you guys implying a guy should take a job, particularly this job, with hopes for how it is going to get better in the future when some event or other takes place.
Instead, look at the track record for broken promises/contracts, and double-standards of behavior, and any new joiner had best sign on for the job he wants for the long-term, not the one he thinks will come around because of fair play and the changing winds of fortune....
Yeah things will change around here... but for the better???
Tell 'em it's Boeing or I'm not going.
SHR
Last edited by Sheet House Rat; 19th Mar 2010 at 12:26.
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Easy Mensa......people have different circumstances and coming to Ek for some is a blessing ! (very hard for lot of whingers in EK to believe !) The fact that some of us complain whilst we are here should not give us grounds to chid somebody who wants to make their way here due to their circumstances. The nuts and bolts of it is there are actually people out there who need jobs and EK is hiring, go figure.
......meanwhile back at the ranch, for now B777 has good routes but at the end of the day it's just a job, hotel bed, toilet, same piece of concrete you land on !
Welcome on board whether B777 or Airbus.......we are all soldiers of the same struggle
......meanwhile back at the ranch, for now B777 has good routes but at the end of the day it's just a job, hotel bed, toilet, same piece of concrete you land on !
Welcome on board whether B777 or Airbus.......we are all soldiers of the same struggle
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For what it might be worth, I am a long time (which in EK is 10 years +) EK Captain. I would reiterate what has been said above; should EK give you any sort of "choice" or should you be able to "negotiate" a deal, I would highly suggest the choice would be the 777.
Irrespective, in any case it is obvious you are either oblivious to what is happening in this company or are so desperate to have a job you are coming to EK/Dubai in spite of the well documented issues on this site. I do not walk in your shoes so I would never allow myself to be one to judge your decision. If you are so desperate you feel you need this job/this place; I commend you on your decision.
What I can say is......myself and my wife were in HQ the other day and saw 4 obvious new-hires going through "the process" (nice new suits, bad haircuts, cheesy flight bags, big watches, optimistic yet somewhat nervous banter). We both looked at each other, shook our heads, and just smiled (and believe me, it was not the "aren't these guys clever coming to Emirates" kind of smile). You guys were warned, you made your beds, you knew beforehand..............
While I do listen and try to understand the complaints expressed by the majority of the F/O's I have flown with over the past 5 years,.......I have no empathy for ANYONE who has come to this company since 2005 and has any bitches/complains about anything this outfit has done since they arrived. Every single issue currently occurring within EK was well discussed/well documented over the past 4 years. Those of you complaining now are fools.
My time here is in "countdown" mode. We have used this place to our advantage and we experienced the best of times at EK. I cannot express strongly enough how we cannot wait (literally counting the weeks) until we can leave with the limited "extras" EK offer (staff travel) and leave this cesspool.
All the best and welcome to Emirates!
Dune
Irrespective, in any case it is obvious you are either oblivious to what is happening in this company or are so desperate to have a job you are coming to EK/Dubai in spite of the well documented issues on this site. I do not walk in your shoes so I would never allow myself to be one to judge your decision. If you are so desperate you feel you need this job/this place; I commend you on your decision.
What I can say is......myself and my wife were in HQ the other day and saw 4 obvious new-hires going through "the process" (nice new suits, bad haircuts, cheesy flight bags, big watches, optimistic yet somewhat nervous banter). We both looked at each other, shook our heads, and just smiled (and believe me, it was not the "aren't these guys clever coming to Emirates" kind of smile). You guys were warned, you made your beds, you knew beforehand..............
While I do listen and try to understand the complaints expressed by the majority of the F/O's I have flown with over the past 5 years,.......I have no empathy for ANYONE who has come to this company since 2005 and has any bitches/complains about anything this outfit has done since they arrived. Every single issue currently occurring within EK was well discussed/well documented over the past 4 years. Those of you complaining now are fools.
My time here is in "countdown" mode. We have used this place to our advantage and we experienced the best of times at EK. I cannot express strongly enough how we cannot wait (literally counting the weeks) until we can leave with the limited "extras" EK offer (staff travel) and leave this cesspool.
All the best and welcome to Emirates!
Dune
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You want to look where the expansion will be 4 to 6 years from now, not what the rosters are like NOW!
I've seen the cycle several times... Joining on a fleet which has "better" rosters now will be "bad" rosters in 4 to 6 years. Would stay away from the B, except if you only plan on staying your 3 years.
And... if you think you're an astronaut, go B, you'll feel at home!
I've seen the cycle several times... Joining on a fleet which has "better" rosters now will be "bad" rosters in 4 to 6 years. Would stay away from the B, except if you only plan on staying your 3 years.
And... if you think you're an astronaut, go B, you'll feel at home!
Rumours are that Boeing is close to announcing the B777-300ERX, which will have 200LR range but carry the same or more than the 300ER. This is largely at EKs request and if it happens, we will no doubt place a big order.
I would hang out for the B777-300ERXXX it has the range on the 200LR, can carry the load of the 300, but has an extra special crew rest facility. Defo gonna cause a happy ending to all Boeing orders from now on. Rumour has it that EK will fit said crew rest in the rear!!!! Now that will bring a tear to the eye.
You read it in PPRUNE first.
The Don.
What is it about MAC owners and boeing pilots?
You read it in PPRUNE first.
The Don.
What is it about MAC owners and boeing pilots?
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Dear Oblaaspop
Some poor chap asks what fleet to join. You propose fleet of aircraft that exists on shiny folders and that's pretty much it. You want facts, show me a prototype of a crosssection or a wing -> zilch. Therefore advising him to join that fleet is .... (chose your own word as you seem to be somewhat touchy).
The Wiz reflected above what I have also heard and that T7 flies nicely and has proven its worth. That's for facts, isn't it? It does 351t now and the tires and engine performance allow 374t (as the 345) this afternoon, just a matter of a few dirhams. Between a flying 777ERX and a drawing of a 350X there is an universe.
Now to guesswork:
This new B has the performance to push the 350X to a very much more distant first flight, as it will now have to match something already on the pitch. I guess this is not an easy task. My take is that a 777ERX will dominate the 350 to 450 pax ULR pitch for quite some time, taking a lot of intended orders away from the 350X initially,even from EK. At a later stage it might well replace the T7, but it will most probably not be in your 4 years.
Some poor chap asks what fleet to join. You propose fleet of aircraft that exists on shiny folders and that's pretty much it. You want facts, show me a prototype of a crosssection or a wing -> zilch. Therefore advising him to join that fleet is .... (chose your own word as you seem to be somewhat touchy).
The Wiz reflected above what I have also heard and that T7 flies nicely and has proven its worth. That's for facts, isn't it? It does 351t now and the tires and engine performance allow 374t (as the 345) this afternoon, just a matter of a few dirhams. Between a flying 777ERX and a drawing of a 350X there is an universe.
Now to guesswork:
This new B has the performance to push the 350X to a very much more distant first flight, as it will now have to match something already on the pitch. I guess this is not an easy task. My take is that a 777ERX will dominate the 350 to 450 pax ULR pitch for quite some time, taking a lot of intended orders away from the 350X initially,even from EK. At a later stage it might well replace the T7, but it will most probably not be in your 4 years.
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Take Boeing if you have the option or can force the issue and forget about trying to predict things 4 or 5 years down the road.
Historically Airbus has not delivered on time (Boeing too I might add) but the big difference is that Airbus often doesn't live up to it's claims regarding aircraft performance. Take the A345 as a prime example, and in part consider the deferred A380 aircraft too.
Emirates is very good at negotiating with Airbus and Boeing because they place large orders for aircraft and they fly a large number from each manufacturer. EK bargains from a position of power but in order to maintain that advantage they must maintain the relative numbers of each aircraft type.
Emirates is also very good at determining which type is best suited for its operations and in my time here, Boeing has outperformed Airbus by a wide margin. I suspect this trend will continue although that is pure conjecture.
Emirates # 1 rule for its operation, is to make as much money as possible and since Boeing is clearly more economical, this leads me to believe that Boeing will continue to be the work-horse of this airline. If this remains true, then upgrades, lifestyle, route structure, and destinations on the Boeing will continue to be more desirable than on the Airbus fleet.
One other factor is that there are 4 types of Airbus and only one type presently allows for upgrade. This causes complications and requires proper planning and a strict adherence to seniority, in order NOT to disadvantage pilots who through no fault of their own, find themselves on a particular Airbus type. It costs the company money to transfer pilots back and forth on types, even taking into account CCQ's, so inevitably the company chooses the most cost-effective upgrade policies, which often has little to do with seniority.
Consider History when making your decision. Yes, things have gone in cycles but for certain, Boeing pilots have had 'on average', much better skeds and lifestyles as compared to Airbus pilots.
Consider what has occured, what is occuring (not the Emirates PR machine in action), and not the predictable defence of any particular fleet by its respective pilots and you should agree that Boeing continues to be a better option at EK.
ps. I enjoy Airbus, love flying the damn things but gotta be realistic.
pps. In the past.... which fleet choice was rarely a concern as this job was good for all pilots here.
Historically Airbus has not delivered on time (Boeing too I might add) but the big difference is that Airbus often doesn't live up to it's claims regarding aircraft performance. Take the A345 as a prime example, and in part consider the deferred A380 aircraft too.
Emirates is very good at negotiating with Airbus and Boeing because they place large orders for aircraft and they fly a large number from each manufacturer. EK bargains from a position of power but in order to maintain that advantage they must maintain the relative numbers of each aircraft type.
Emirates is also very good at determining which type is best suited for its operations and in my time here, Boeing has outperformed Airbus by a wide margin. I suspect this trend will continue although that is pure conjecture.
Emirates # 1 rule for its operation, is to make as much money as possible and since Boeing is clearly more economical, this leads me to believe that Boeing will continue to be the work-horse of this airline. If this remains true, then upgrades, lifestyle, route structure, and destinations on the Boeing will continue to be more desirable than on the Airbus fleet.
One other factor is that there are 4 types of Airbus and only one type presently allows for upgrade. This causes complications and requires proper planning and a strict adherence to seniority, in order NOT to disadvantage pilots who through no fault of their own, find themselves on a particular Airbus type. It costs the company money to transfer pilots back and forth on types, even taking into account CCQ's, so inevitably the company chooses the most cost-effective upgrade policies, which often has little to do with seniority.
Consider History when making your decision. Yes, things have gone in cycles but for certain, Boeing pilots have had 'on average', much better skeds and lifestyles as compared to Airbus pilots.
Consider what has occured, what is occuring (not the Emirates PR machine in action), and not the predictable defence of any particular fleet by its respective pilots and you should agree that Boeing continues to be a better option at EK.
ps. I enjoy Airbus, love flying the damn things but gotta be realistic.
pps. In the past.... which fleet choice was rarely a concern as this job was good for all pilots here.
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Pool, I think you're missing my point?
The company has placed FIRM orders for 70 A350's plus options on 50 more for delivery from 2014. The 777ERX 'may' exist in someones mind but will be many years away from being delivered (look at timeline of B748 production), and even if EK want some tomorrow... Boeing doesn't have any spare production slots for a very long way into the future. These my friend are whats known as FACTS.
Your position is based on nothing more than a 'hunch' or a 'feeling' or the age old Boeing is better than Airbus diatribe, unless of course YOU can come up with some HARD evidence to back up YOUR claims.... I don't know, maybe a drawing of a wing box cross-section broken in half perhaps...(look on the Boeing 787 website, you may find one there)
Incidentally, the A350 is not and has never been aimed at competing with the B777, it is a SUB 300 seat aircraft to replace the A330/A340 and to compete directly with the B787 (which incidentally is gonna be over 2 years late)!
BTW I see you have 'conveniently' forgotten to acknowledge the small matter of the 50 more A380's left to be delivered.... Selective reading no doubt, a bit like my Nan's selective hearing I guess?
Get YOUR facts straight.
The company has placed FIRM orders for 70 A350's plus options on 50 more for delivery from 2014. The 777ERX 'may' exist in someones mind but will be many years away from being delivered (look at timeline of B748 production), and even if EK want some tomorrow... Boeing doesn't have any spare production slots for a very long way into the future. These my friend are whats known as FACTS.
Your position is based on nothing more than a 'hunch' or a 'feeling' or the age old Boeing is better than Airbus diatribe, unless of course YOU can come up with some HARD evidence to back up YOUR claims.... I don't know, maybe a drawing of a wing box cross-section broken in half perhaps...(look on the Boeing 787 website, you may find one there)
Incidentally, the A350 is not and has never been aimed at competing with the B777, it is a SUB 300 seat aircraft to replace the A330/A340 and to compete directly with the B787 (which incidentally is gonna be over 2 years late)!
BTW I see you have 'conveniently' forgotten to acknowledge the small matter of the 50 more A380's left to be delivered.... Selective reading no doubt, a bit like my Nan's selective hearing I guess?
Get YOUR facts straight.
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Yeah, I might get you wrong, so be it, dear Oblaaspop.
The way I see it is that the 777ERX is almost the same aircraft that actually takes off daily, only recertificated to higher weights, maybe some structural alightenings.
Another way we experienced "firm" order treatment from EK, is that when another aircraft outperforms the ordered one on the field, EK is fast to cancel orders (346).
Make your own assessment, but I concur with Mensa, for quite some time the daily displayed performance talks Boeing and if we want to give advice to newbees (apart from better staying away from EK), we might give the adequate one.
Take a chill pill
The way I see it is that the 777ERX is almost the same aircraft that actually takes off daily, only recertificated to higher weights, maybe some structural alightenings.
Another way we experienced "firm" order treatment from EK, is that when another aircraft outperforms the ordered one on the field, EK is fast to cancel orders (346).
Make your own assessment, but I concur with Mensa, for quite some time the daily displayed performance talks Boeing and if we want to give advice to newbees (apart from better staying away from EK), we might give the adequate one.
Take a chill pill
Last edited by pool; 21st Mar 2010 at 09:15.
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777 erx is a ways off, they are working on a new winglet just to mention one thing. EIS 350 is 2013 and EK planned on 2014 allowing Airbus to screw up a bit . Looks to me EK is putting pressure on boeing before they confirm the 50 options of the 350.
EK looks like its going to be 2/3 Airbus and 1/3 Boeing, as mentioned, you cant plan on anything, boeing good today bad tomorow.
EK looks like its going to be 2/3 Airbus and 1/3 Boeing, as mentioned, you cant plan on anything, boeing good today bad tomorow.
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On second thought....
Lchristler..
Now that you've heard the good, bad, and ugly, maybe the best advice is this, DON"T COME HERE until you get a chance to see what the puppet masters have in store for the pilot group.
Specifically, wait and see what happens to salary/profit share/flight pay during the yearly compensation review before you commit to a job here.
If you have to come NOW, leave your family behind, see what happens to our compensation package, and if you don't like it, bail before your PPC when your bond becomes binding.
By no means sell cars, home(s), and commit to this job until you put your boots on the ground and give it a good sniff test. Only then should you consider a more definite type of move.
Ultimately, it's not about which fleet you are on (though Boeing seems to be better at this time), it's about whether you can tolerate being treated like a second/third class citizen on a regular basis.
If you enjoy feeling marginalized, dismissed, and expendable, this place is for you. This is not an airline job in the sense a proper airline pilot understands the profession, it's a whole different environment.
As I said before, jump in, the water is fine... just don't complain you weren't warned.
SHR
Now that you've heard the good, bad, and ugly, maybe the best advice is this, DON"T COME HERE until you get a chance to see what the puppet masters have in store for the pilot group.
Specifically, wait and see what happens to salary/profit share/flight pay during the yearly compensation review before you commit to a job here.
If you have to come NOW, leave your family behind, see what happens to our compensation package, and if you don't like it, bail before your PPC when your bond becomes binding.
By no means sell cars, home(s), and commit to this job until you put your boots on the ground and give it a good sniff test. Only then should you consider a more definite type of move.
Ultimately, it's not about which fleet you are on (though Boeing seems to be better at this time), it's about whether you can tolerate being treated like a second/third class citizen on a regular basis.
If you enjoy feeling marginalized, dismissed, and expendable, this place is for you. This is not an airline job in the sense a proper airline pilot understands the profession, it's a whole different environment.
As I said before, jump in, the water is fine... just don't complain you weren't warned.
SHR
Last edited by Sheet House Rat; 22nd Mar 2010 at 23:26.
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It is so obvious that the Boeing fleet IS much better off and WILL be much better off for the foreseeable future, but that should be the LEAST of your worries. EK is not a good choice irrespective of fleets, but the Boeing vs Airbus question respectively equates to Bad vs Appalling.
If you could see my April Airbus sked, you would definitely agree that it couldn't get any worse.
In a nutshell.
-a few Reserve Days allocated at the whim of Rostering
-over 135 Duty hours (doesn't take into account the plus 1 hour before duty time when we are already at work, nor does it include the post chocks-on 1 hour at work) So add another 20 hours to that INSANE roster
-close to max flight hours with only ONE layover, which is less than 23 hours
-3 Variation Flights (approved extensions to the normal maximum flight time limitations),
- Cat B* or Cat C airports
-NO european, OZ, USA, or Canada flights whatsoever.
-7 DAYS OFF IN TOTAL ! Several rest days yes.
If anyone chooses to come to EK, they are either mis-informed, dillusional or so desparate that although they ''MIGHT'' understand the consequences they have accepted the life-altering and life-reducing conditions here.
Either way, the vast majority of new-joiner pilots, will regret their decision to take a chance at EK, more than any past decision in their life.
If you could see my April Airbus sked, you would definitely agree that it couldn't get any worse.
In a nutshell.
-a few Reserve Days allocated at the whim of Rostering
-over 135 Duty hours (doesn't take into account the plus 1 hour before duty time when we are already at work, nor does it include the post chocks-on 1 hour at work) So add another 20 hours to that INSANE roster
-close to max flight hours with only ONE layover, which is less than 23 hours
-3 Variation Flights (approved extensions to the normal maximum flight time limitations),
- Cat B* or Cat C airports
-NO european, OZ, USA, or Canada flights whatsoever.
-7 DAYS OFF IN TOTAL ! Several rest days yes.
If anyone chooses to come to EK, they are either mis-informed, dillusional or so desparate that although they ''MIGHT'' understand the consequences they have accepted the life-altering and life-reducing conditions here.
Either way, the vast majority of new-joiner pilots, will regret their decision to take a chance at EK, more than any past decision in their life.
Last edited by mensaboy; 24th Mar 2010 at 05:23.
