EK road show
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Spikedog
It is futile to compare airlines in the ME and others in the civilised world on T&Cs. Certainly some outfits there have conditions that are closer to compulsory work than a contract respecting human rights. The huge underlying difference though is, that in civilisation at least you have some legal and human rights. You cannot be thrown in jail because your maid screwed up, the company watching that soap opera and doing squat to help. You cannot be sacked simply because you screwed up an approach and did a go around that was observed by a poor egomaniac manager. You can at least take a broken contract to a judge who deserves such a name, with a fair chance of getting justice.
In the sandpit all this is a lost cause. It's all nice and cool as long as you don't encounter the arbitrary mentality of these sods around here. If this happens, you're alone and lost. The law abides the corrupt leaders and the almighty lord of greed.
Good luck with your choice.
It is futile to compare airlines in the ME and others in the civilised world on T&Cs. Certainly some outfits there have conditions that are closer to compulsory work than a contract respecting human rights. The huge underlying difference though is, that in civilisation at least you have some legal and human rights. You cannot be thrown in jail because your maid screwed up, the company watching that soap opera and doing squat to help. You cannot be sacked simply because you screwed up an approach and did a go around that was observed by a poor egomaniac manager. You can at least take a broken contract to a judge who deserves such a name, with a fair chance of getting justice.
In the sandpit all this is a lost cause. It's all nice and cool as long as you don't encounter the arbitrary mentality of these sods around here. If this happens, you're alone and lost. The law abides the corrupt leaders and the almighty lord of greed.
Good luck with your choice.
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Spikedog
I think that many guys on this forum are just venting their frustration. The thing to remember is that you have no rights as an expat in this country so there is no recourse and hence this forum is the only place to vent.
Ek might be okay for some people, depending on their circumstances off course. Do your own research into EK to determine whether it is okay for you or not. No one should make a career decision based on what is written on pprune. My advise is for you to come to Dubai with your family and look at it with an OPEN MIND.Don't believe everything that EK tells you at the presentations either. They sugar coat everything.
Few things to remember though:
T & C have eroded over the years. They have been gradually eroding ever since I joined a few years ago. (that was when the company was making record profits). The reductions have just spiraled in the last two years.The company has used the recession as an excuse although they have still been profitable. Many guys understand that the past year has been tough for EK and many guys would have been happy if the company had just said that they needed more productivity for a year or so. Instead the company changed the productivity rules unilaterally.
We have seen our productivity threshold change from 78hrs to 92hrs a month.Added to this is the fact that we were given no increase.To make things even worse we were told that our utility bill will only be covered up to a limit even though our contract states that the compay pays for all utilities.
Most salary increases have been below real inflation. The company uses the official inflation rate which most guys here will tell you is way below the real rate.Education support allowance has not been raised for the past two years even though school fees have been increasing 12% on average.
If you come here with two school going kids on a f/o salary than you are not going to save much. Also, with the new rostering rules, you are not going to spend much time at home with your family. Even the time that you do spend at home ,you are going to use that time to recover. We have fatigue issues but the company will not acknowledge this because most guys are too scared to file fatigue related reports even though they are fatigued and know it.
92 hrs a month might not sound like a lot to some of the low cost carrier pilots but remember tht here most of the flying is done middle of the night also through multiple time zones.
Job security and early command used to be another attraction in the past.Both these have been laid to rest in the past year. The hours required to upgrade were changed unilaterally in last year.Also many guys have been fired for minor incidents.
Ek might still be the place for you depending on you circumstances. However, please do your research.
I think that many guys on this forum are just venting their frustration. The thing to remember is that you have no rights as an expat in this country so there is no recourse and hence this forum is the only place to vent.
Ek might be okay for some people, depending on their circumstances off course. Do your own research into EK to determine whether it is okay for you or not. No one should make a career decision based on what is written on pprune. My advise is for you to come to Dubai with your family and look at it with an OPEN MIND.Don't believe everything that EK tells you at the presentations either. They sugar coat everything.
Few things to remember though:
T & C have eroded over the years. They have been gradually eroding ever since I joined a few years ago. (that was when the company was making record profits). The reductions have just spiraled in the last two years.The company has used the recession as an excuse although they have still been profitable. Many guys understand that the past year has been tough for EK and many guys would have been happy if the company had just said that they needed more productivity for a year or so. Instead the company changed the productivity rules unilaterally.
We have seen our productivity threshold change from 78hrs to 92hrs a month.Added to this is the fact that we were given no increase.To make things even worse we were told that our utility bill will only be covered up to a limit even though our contract states that the compay pays for all utilities.
Most salary increases have been below real inflation. The company uses the official inflation rate which most guys here will tell you is way below the real rate.Education support allowance has not been raised for the past two years even though school fees have been increasing 12% on average.
If you come here with two school going kids on a f/o salary than you are not going to save much. Also, with the new rostering rules, you are not going to spend much time at home with your family. Even the time that you do spend at home ,you are going to use that time to recover. We have fatigue issues but the company will not acknowledge this because most guys are too scared to file fatigue related reports even though they are fatigued and know it.
92 hrs a month might not sound like a lot to some of the low cost carrier pilots but remember tht here most of the flying is done middle of the night also through multiple time zones.
Job security and early command used to be another attraction in the past.Both these have been laid to rest in the past year. The hours required to upgrade were changed unilaterally in last year.Also many guys have been fired for minor incidents.
Ek might still be the place for you depending on you circumstances. However, please do your research.
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sexdriven - very useful and thank you for the advice. It sounds very much like what is going on in the UK and in particular with my airline, which is also eroding Ts&Cs whilst making a profit - blaming it all on the recession.
I will take all posts on here with a pinch of salt, do a lot of research and visit Dubai before making any firm decisions.
With the new rostering rules, how many days are you away from Dubai on stopovers per month?
Spike
I will take all posts on here with a pinch of salt, do a lot of research and visit Dubai before making any firm decisions.
With the new rostering rules, how many days are you away from Dubai on stopovers per month?
Spike
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Some of the rostering here in EK is frankly shocking.
The West Coast flights are at the moment a 12 hrs time difference followed by 2 days on the ground (used to be 4) then off East.
A few cycles of that and your body is completely shot, your family will be totally fed up with Dad being knackered all the time and there is no respite until you get ill or call in fatigued.
The DEWA cap is a monstrous pineapple insertion but won't kill anyone....the rostering, well I hope not.
We as a family are seriously looking for other options as I have every intention of living after I retire and not expiring on my 60th birthday.
And I am a "Glass half full guy".
The West Coast flights are at the moment a 12 hrs time difference followed by 2 days on the ground (used to be 4) then off East.
A few cycles of that and your body is completely shot, your family will be totally fed up with Dad being knackered all the time and there is no respite until you get ill or call in fatigued.
The DEWA cap is a monstrous pineapple insertion but won't kill anyone....the rostering, well I hope not.
We as a family are seriously looking for other options as I have every intention of living after I retire and not expiring on my 60th birthday.
And I am a "Glass half full guy".
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Spikey,
Do not take what guys say here with a pinch of salt. It is their perspective, thus their reality. Much is dependent of one's situation here. But to leave a viable company, that MIGHT have a union is not in anyway a wise move, IMHO.
If you have a family, you can forget having anything resembling a normal family life. You will see monthly rosters of only 10 days of....a few here and there. You will not have any true ability to bid for your kids birthday, anniversary, leave in the summer off. Well actually, you will bid for those, but with rosters at up to 95 hours per month....good luck. And as what has been said, those days off will be spent sleeping during the day, used to get one's physical, doing numerous online training courses, getting visas or renewing them, getting a UAE ID card (good luck) and numerous other adminstrative activities that will take away from watching junior's football match or piano recital. Your wife will get fed up with having to deal with all of the other "garbage" around Dubai, the traffic, getting things done in 50 degree heat part of the year, and dealing with, well you name it, with little or no help from you (you can't, you're never home). You see, you will be on the other side of the world, 12 time zones away and trying to sleep. Or you might do 10 hours on a flight with only two pilots, get in at 5am in the morning, sleep half the day away and try to recover the next. Then off again....And if you call in sick, they will try to recover those sick days during days off during the month OR next month. "Mummy, why is daddy always away or in a bad mood?" Ask around and see how many of us got all 42 days of leave awarded for next year. Or if they did, how many "four" day leave awards were there?
No family? Then what the heck, come and "man up" and try and have fun. With family, you will be getting pressure you can only imagine.
And commuting...forget about it. No way unless you live next door. So don't take what is said here with a "pinch". Nothing said here, so far, is away from what guys/gals are experiencing.
And we won't even get into the training aspect of this place. Anyone want to take that one on? And this is from someone who was damn happy the first few years here.
Do not take what guys say here with a pinch of salt. It is their perspective, thus their reality. Much is dependent of one's situation here. But to leave a viable company, that MIGHT have a union is not in anyway a wise move, IMHO.
If you have a family, you can forget having anything resembling a normal family life. You will see monthly rosters of only 10 days of....a few here and there. You will not have any true ability to bid for your kids birthday, anniversary, leave in the summer off. Well actually, you will bid for those, but with rosters at up to 95 hours per month....good luck. And as what has been said, those days off will be spent sleeping during the day, used to get one's physical, doing numerous online training courses, getting visas or renewing them, getting a UAE ID card (good luck) and numerous other adminstrative activities that will take away from watching junior's football match or piano recital. Your wife will get fed up with having to deal with all of the other "garbage" around Dubai, the traffic, getting things done in 50 degree heat part of the year, and dealing with, well you name it, with little or no help from you (you can't, you're never home). You see, you will be on the other side of the world, 12 time zones away and trying to sleep. Or you might do 10 hours on a flight with only two pilots, get in at 5am in the morning, sleep half the day away and try to recover the next. Then off again....And if you call in sick, they will try to recover those sick days during days off during the month OR next month. "Mummy, why is daddy always away or in a bad mood?" Ask around and see how many of us got all 42 days of leave awarded for next year. Or if they did, how many "four" day leave awards were there?
No family? Then what the heck, come and "man up" and try and have fun. With family, you will be getting pressure you can only imagine.
And commuting...forget about it. No way unless you live next door. So don't take what is said here with a "pinch". Nothing said here, so far, is away from what guys/gals are experiencing.
And we won't even get into the training aspect of this place. Anyone want to take that one on? And this is from someone who was damn happy the first few years here.
Last edited by IXNAT; 23rd Feb 2010 at 14:15.
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Yeah, watchdog. Talk to the numberS of f/os that have "failed" their upgrades by "fired" TRE's. Failed upgrades not due to some definitive objective failure but something subjective that parameters can't be measured. Or upgrades halted in mid training and never given a reason. Or all the changes made to the training footprint because we had such stellar trainers and curriculum. And of course they were all "slack asses". It's TRAINING not CHECKING. 'Nother story though.....thread creep. Fourth airline over a long career and the worst training by far, by any measure. "Where's that written?" "Mate, you just gotta know".
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SpikeDog
Around the world all airlines are trimming our packages, Thats a fact. But here is something you need to consider.
In the Sandpit your entire life ( and your families) is dependant on your job. Your kids being in school , your wifes job ( if she has one) , your villa etc etc.
If you have a bad day a work. Or if some local lies that your wife flipped him the finger (His word against hers) on Shk Zayed Road. Your little world could be in the balance.
Have a bad day at work or an "issue" outside of Work and you could loose everything. Ie you are outta here.
Now by comparison , you have your home in the UK , your kids in school , your wifey has a job ( her family and friends are around etc). Now you have a bad day at work. All you need to do is look for another job. The rest of your life remains intact. I have seen many fall over the years here.
its a long fall back to the first world. If you think you can keep your current status quo at home ( UK) and establish some sort of commute. You are very wrong. With our current rostering practices you will find yourself filing for Divorce or facing disciplinary action for missing a flight faster than you can say " WTF".
dont get me wrong if you have to work you have to work. But to leave an Airline back in " Familiar" to come here requires carefull thought and believe me the info you want is here in these Forums.
Around the world all airlines are trimming our packages, Thats a fact. But here is something you need to consider.
In the Sandpit your entire life ( and your families) is dependant on your job. Your kids being in school , your wifes job ( if she has one) , your villa etc etc.
If you have a bad day a work. Or if some local lies that your wife flipped him the finger (His word against hers) on Shk Zayed Road. Your little world could be in the balance.
Have a bad day at work or an "issue" outside of Work and you could loose everything. Ie you are outta here.
Now by comparison , you have your home in the UK , your kids in school , your wifey has a job ( her family and friends are around etc). Now you have a bad day at work. All you need to do is look for another job. The rest of your life remains intact. I have seen many fall over the years here.
its a long fall back to the first world. If you think you can keep your current status quo at home ( UK) and establish some sort of commute. You are very wrong. With our current rostering practices you will find yourself filing for Divorce or facing disciplinary action for missing a flight faster than you can say " WTF".
dont get me wrong if you have to work you have to work. But to leave an Airline back in " Familiar" to come here requires carefull thought and believe me the info you want is here in these Forums.
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I agree with what has been said about EK.
Due dilligence is required before joining and the facts detailed in the posts above are not fabrication by the pilots. The crewing shortage in EK in one of the worst recessions in modern history is testament to the reality here in EK.
Due dilligence is required before joining and the facts detailed in the posts above are not fabrication by the pilots. The crewing shortage in EK in one of the worst recessions in modern history is testament to the reality here in EK.
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Spikey--the problem is that it is more difficult than you think to 'fly for a few years'. Once you give up a seniority number to come here you start at the bottom and, at the moment, command is probably 7 years.
If you decide that the situation is one you want for you and family you are making a huge commitment. It is costly to move and set up house. Going back is costly as well.
The biggest variable for me would be my ability to go home and find suitable work. If your plan is not for the rest of your career you best have a plan on how to back home. I am guessing that if you spend 5 years here your not going back at the top of a seniority list. Will there be airlines hiring at the time? If you have no left seat time where will you slot in? If you are in the left seat is there a DEC position available?
Basically what I'm saying is that the most difficult variable in the decision making process is how to get back. Once you are out it is very difficult to get back- at least without a major paycut or change in lifestyle. The airline biz is fickle and may not correspond with your desire to head home.
If you decide that the situation is one you want for you and family you are making a huge commitment. It is costly to move and set up house. Going back is costly as well.
The biggest variable for me would be my ability to go home and find suitable work. If your plan is not for the rest of your career you best have a plan on how to back home. I am guessing that if you spend 5 years here your not going back at the top of a seniority list. Will there be airlines hiring at the time? If you have no left seat time where will you slot in? If you are in the left seat is there a DEC position available?
Basically what I'm saying is that the most difficult variable in the decision making process is how to get back. Once you are out it is very difficult to get back- at least without a major paycut or change in lifestyle. The airline biz is fickle and may not correspond with your desire to head home.
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Trader
Very good post. It`s one of the biggest unknown when taking the plunge into any expat job. I was lucky when I left 3 years ago, but I have friends in EK just waiting for an opportunity to return home, not knowing when opportunity
will come knocking.
Fjordviking
will come knocking.
Fjordviking
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Twieke .You will see only what you want to see , you will hear only what you want to hear and carry on regardless.Nice big new 777 or 330 for you
I wish you luck with your endeavours but I can assure you not an ounce of sympathy when at some point you stand on a mine in the minefield that Emirates has become. All you need to know is right here on these forums. You have been acurately advised and you choose , so please be man about proceeding and be true to yourself in the years ahead when you discover the truth , the hard way.
I wish you luck with your endeavours but I can assure you not an ounce of sympathy when at some point you stand on a mine in the minefield that Emirates has become. All you need to know is right here on these forums. You have been acurately advised and you choose , so please be man about proceeding and be true to yourself in the years ahead when you discover the truth , the hard way.
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fourgolds
If you bothered to read the whole thread it`s obvious that twieke works for EK.See post #5.
I guess it`s the fatigue and you had a slip, time to mitigate.
Fjordviking
I guess it`s the fatigue and you had a slip, time to mitigate.
Fjordviking
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Apparently there is no mention of a Utility Allowance on the EK Careers Website anymore????
Has the UA been scrapped for New Joiners??
I might have bad info, but this would make a massive change to your overall package if you will not even receive assistance up to the capped amount.
Be very careful, they breed sly dogs here in Dubai.
CAV.
Has the UA been scrapped for New Joiners??
I might have bad info, but this would make a massive change to your overall package if you will not even receive assistance up to the capped amount.
Be very careful, they breed sly dogs here in Dubai.
CAV.
.
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Ask the liar the EK have put in the road show the following questions:
1.) 99% of what is written in PPrune about EK are lies..... so what is the 1% that is true?
2.) Why the roadshow for pilots in the midst of this recession if there are people queing up to join EK?
3.) How many pilots left EK in the last 12 months?
4.) Is it true EK have lost 500 members of staff (across all grades) who resigned since January2010?
5.) Is it true that over 3000 staff (in Dubai) resigned last year?
6.) Is it true that you haven't paid utilities for the staff for 3 months?
7.) Is there a culture of bullying and intimidation?
People here have seen the deterioation of their T's and C's here over the last two years. It has been done in a sly and deceitful way. That is the main crux of it. Coupled with the huge greed. It will get worse. If you have a job, stick with it. Only if you are very desperate consider EK.
1.) 99% of what is written in PPrune about EK are lies..... so what is the 1% that is true?
2.) Why the roadshow for pilots in the midst of this recession if there are people queing up to join EK?
3.) How many pilots left EK in the last 12 months?
4.) Is it true EK have lost 500 members of staff (across all grades) who resigned since January2010?
5.) Is it true that over 3000 staff (in Dubai) resigned last year?
6.) Is it true that you haven't paid utilities for the staff for 3 months?
7.) Is there a culture of bullying and intimidation?
People here have seen the deterioation of their T's and C's here over the last two years. It has been done in a sly and deceitful way. That is the main crux of it. Coupled with the huge greed. It will get worse. If you have a job, stick with it. Only if you are very desperate consider EK.
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Guys/Girls
Thank you all for your interesting posts about Emirates. I will think long and hard before making such a move. IXNAT, fourgolds, Trader, LR3 and others - very helpful posts and food for thought.
I'm still short of hours for Emirates and they don't seem to want to drop below the 4,000 hours requirement, even though they are very short of crews. I suppose it means I won't have to make a tough choice for a while yet! Perhaps a blessing in disguise!
From what I have heard it seems like Etihad might be a better option at the present time. Better rostering, management, etc? Any thoughts?
Spike
Thank you all for your interesting posts about Emirates. I will think long and hard before making such a move. IXNAT, fourgolds, Trader, LR3 and others - very helpful posts and food for thought.
I'm still short of hours for Emirates and they don't seem to want to drop below the 4,000 hours requirement, even though they are very short of crews. I suppose it means I won't have to make a tough choice for a while yet! Perhaps a blessing in disguise!
From what I have heard it seems like Etihad might be a better option at the present time. Better rostering, management, etc? Any thoughts?
Spike