All EK ULR Flights to be 3 pilot crews!
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Whososorrynow,
The majority of flights with two man crew are at destinations that have at least another flight that day. Not all but most, and therefore the damage done by a cancelled flight can be mitigated somewhat. But the ULRs, to the west only (except JFK) have one flight a day. Then when they decide to fly to ORD and other west destinations they can DH a crewmember to cover it after arrival in the destination. Well I guess they will keep the 48 hr layovers and grab a crewmember who has had 24 hours rest and shovel him onto the flight. But then there will be a 48 hour alcohol restriction and put everyone on a SBU downroute for the day before return. Oh, this should be fun to watch this unfold and all of its unentended consequences. What a mess this can and will turn into.
The majority of flights with two man crew are at destinations that have at least another flight that day. Not all but most, and therefore the damage done by a cancelled flight can be mitigated somewhat. But the ULRs, to the west only (except JFK) have one flight a day. Then when they decide to fly to ORD and other west destinations they can DH a crewmember to cover it after arrival in the destination. Well I guess they will keep the 48 hr layovers and grab a crewmember who has had 24 hours rest and shovel him onto the flight. But then there will be a 48 hour alcohol restriction and put everyone on a SBU downroute for the day before return. Oh, this should be fun to watch this unfold and all of its unentended consequences. What a mess this can and will turn into.
Two Crew One Flight a Day Destinations:
NCL,GLA,CCU,HAM,LOS,LUE (sp?), DAR,CPT,TUN,MLA,CMN,CAN,ICN, there's probably more.
Destinations that EK can reduce from four to three crew:
GRU,IAH,JFK,YYZ. I think that's it. The Oz trips will need a further two crew to fly on to NZ so they are out of it. And I don't think they will be able to reduce the crew from four to three with a rest of less than 30 hours, I'm not sure what the present rest is on GRU & IAH, but if it's 24 hours then they should be out of it as well. Barring any rescheduling and imaginative Variations.
Forgot VCE and NCE. DUS, FCO and MUC should be included too as they are Boeing and Airbus morning and afternoon respectively.
NCL,GLA,CCU,HAM,LOS,LUE (sp?), DAR,CPT,TUN,MLA,CMN,CAN,ICN, there's probably more.
Destinations that EK can reduce from four to three crew:
GRU,IAH,JFK,YYZ. I think that's it. The Oz trips will need a further two crew to fly on to NZ so they are out of it. And I don't think they will be able to reduce the crew from four to three with a rest of less than 30 hours, I'm not sure what the present rest is on GRU & IAH, but if it's 24 hours then they should be out of it as well. Barring any rescheduling and imaginative Variations.
Forgot VCE and NCE. DUS, FCO and MUC should be included too as they are Boeing and Airbus morning and afternoon respectively.
Last edited by whossorrynow; 13th Feb 2010 at 17:31.
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That's all well and good, but the majority of the stations you mentioned are 5-8 hours away from DXB. A little bit different a destination 16 hours away. If you were NSC, which would you think would be easier to "fix", 300 pax in a station 8 hours away or one 17? And which flights do you think are the high value, high PR flights? It would be interesting to see what stations (ULRs or medium haul) flights have the most sick outs or fatigue outs in today's operation. Finally, can anyone name any airline in the world that would be allowed to fly or currently flies 16+ hours on a two manned a/c with only three crew members? Just curious.
Sounds to me, whossorrynow, that you don't think it's any big deal to regularly fly 16 hours with three crew. Or am I missing something?
Sounds to me, whossorrynow, that you don't think it's any big deal to regularly fly 16 hours with three crew. Or am I missing something?
I think Ed has proven time and again he is not the smartest muppet in the clan. Is he referring to the summer time reduction to 3 crew members scam that has been happening on the JFK for years and gotten just a little confused? I hope so.
IXNAT does putting 300 people into a hotel cost any more 15hrs away than it does 8hrs? I think you will also find that African flights offer more yield than USA flights, so would that be considered high value? If you think you can use some form of logic as to why things happen here you are in for more surprises.
Keep recovering.
The Don
IXNAT does putting 300 people into a hotel cost any more 15hrs away than it does 8hrs? I think you will also find that African flights offer more yield than USA flights, so would that be considered high value? If you think you can use some form of logic as to why things happen here you are in for more surprises.
Keep recovering.
The Don
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People mention 3 crew ops, but aren't stating whether it will be 1 Capt and 2 F/Os or 2 Capts and 1 F/O. It makes a bit of a difference as how many Capts are right seat qualified?
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Seem to recall JFK on the 345 with 3 pilots and you could only handle a 15 min delay before discretion, cant see LAX,IAH or SFO be able to be done with 3. I could see EK doing JFK and YYZ with 3 for the summer and the 777 might be able to do MEL a bit faster then the 345 and as such 3 pilots.
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I think it is about time that EK Crew stop extending duties at the expectation of the Company, but only in extenuating circumstances where it is reasonable to do so.
Not where a duty has been planned within 5 mins of the FDP Limit and any regular delay occurs, especially when the flight has already been planned under one of the Variations.
After all, it is Commanders Discretion....... isn't it? Not Company Discretion.
CAV
Not where a duty has been planned within 5 mins of the FDP Limit and any regular delay occurs, especially when the flight has already been planned under one of the Variations.
After all, it is Commanders Discretion....... isn't it? Not Company Discretion.
CAV
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Can anyone tell me if the doctors that SOS send out to the crew are AMEs, or just GPs?
Reason I ask, is if a AME books you as unfit, you really cannot fly, but if a GP says you are unwell, there is a window for "someone" to attempt to browbeat you into working back.
I heard (third hand, like so many stories about this place) it happened recently, and the poor FO, who was ill, was apparantly quite useless on the trip home, and the Captain had to carry the load.
Reason I ask, is if a AME books you as unfit, you really cannot fly, but if a GP says you are unwell, there is a window for "someone" to attempt to browbeat you into working back.
I heard (third hand, like so many stories about this place) it happened recently, and the poor FO, who was ill, was apparantly quite useless on the trip home, and the Captain had to carry the load.
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If they get in a corner, they could still go down the road of having second officers like CX/QF.
This would entail hiring pilots with something like 1000 hrs on turbo props who will only fly as in flight relief (either seat) for approx 3 years before doing an F/O rating on type. They would not be allowed to be at the controls below 10,000 feet and need to do landings in the sim to maintain recency. It would still not help if someone goes sick down route on a 3 man ULR, but would ensure that the operation is maintained. There would be no shortage of takers from the market on this scheme.
Another thought given to me by a fly on the wall... the GCAA is very concerned with the fatigue issue in EK and after the MEL event they have been under some pressure as to their own ability to monitor and govern EK activities. How can we use that to our advantage?
The show goes on... and on ... and bloody on!!
This would entail hiring pilots with something like 1000 hrs on turbo props who will only fly as in flight relief (either seat) for approx 3 years before doing an F/O rating on type. They would not be allowed to be at the controls below 10,000 feet and need to do landings in the sim to maintain recency. It would still not help if someone goes sick down route on a 3 man ULR, but would ensure that the operation is maintained. There would be no shortage of takers from the market on this scheme.
Another thought given to me by a fly on the wall... the GCAA is very concerned with the fatigue issue in EK and after the MEL event they have been under some pressure as to their own ability to monitor and govern EK activities. How can we use that to our advantage?
The show goes on... and on ... and bloody on!!
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Each ULR pairing has its own little annex in the FTL part of the FOM. All they need to do is "modify" the annex to make the pairings legal with three pilots. The GCAA will rubber stamp it and Emirates will get about 6 months out of it before the stack of fatigue ASRs becomes too large to ignore. Meanwhile they will cross their fingers that there aren't any fatigue related "incidents". Especially in Australia.
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Hmmm
I've experimented with the electronic FDP playing 'what-if' on some random ULR sectors.
There's not much leeway (if any, on some sectors) for 3 pilot ops before discretion is required.
Unless as has been stated before, the "rules" are changed.
cheers, CK
There's not much leeway (if any, on some sectors) for 3 pilot ops before discretion is required.
Unless as has been stated before, the "rules" are changed.
cheers, CK
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True
There is a generic plan for ULR flights approved by the GCAA
but since the FDP has allowances for rest taken and number of crew it is
a useful tool. Would you use it for flights up to 14 hrs. as anything in excess is considered ULR flight?
cheers, CK
but since the FDP has allowances for rest taken and number of crew it is
a useful tool. Would you use it for flights up to 14 hrs. as anything in excess is considered ULR flight?
cheers, CK
