Dubai Airshow 2009
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The world's biggest beach
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Payscale there's always the danger with PPrune or any forum that the message /argument will come across garbled.
If I have misunderstood you then I apologise. But I still feel your post
is a touch incendiary.
The reason you had to hold 125 nm away is because we are so good, that we wouldn't allow ourselves to get overloaded and compromise your safety or the level of service that can be offered on a frequency, ie capacity to deal with emergencies. Your first port of call is to blame ATC for the delay not your own company or the airport themselves to allow unrealistic scheduling!
If your flying on fumes, that's your deal buddy, declare a pan or a mayday and get priority treatment. The fact that delays would exist all last week due to the airshow and airshow practice earlier on the week has been notamed/AIP'd to some extent for the last 6 months.
And finally, If I did do as you suggest and did my job according to rules laid out in 'my regs' you'd have far more missed approaches, sit at the holding point far longer waiting to roll and routings to gates that made my life easier not yours, but the fact that I do bend the rules and go the extra mile is because I get satisfaction and pride from going the 'extra mile' and trying to offer a good service. Whichever way you look at it your initial post quoted above is derogatory to ATC and spoiling for a fight, so I'll see you on the playground in 5 minutes
By all means ask a serious question and offer constructive feedback, and admittedly your latter posts do, but your initial post winds me up buddy.
Have a great day
I'll be at the golf if you fancy a pint.
If I have misunderstood you then I apologise. But I still feel your post
ATC Dubai... If you are THAT good, why did I have to hold 125 NM from Dubai last night, together with 20 other guys!!Waiting for my turn to hold at Desdi!! Dont know how many diverted. Unacceptable in my honest opinion. NO EAT issued. You are about no 15 I was told.Please understand that we sit up there flying on fumes sometimes. Cant you use both runways for simultaneous landings, until everyone is down. Maybe its not the simple. Please enlighten me!
The reason you had to hold 125 nm away is because we are so good, that we wouldn't allow ourselves to get overloaded and compromise your safety or the level of service that can be offered on a frequency, ie capacity to deal with emergencies. Your first port of call is to blame ATC for the delay not your own company or the airport themselves to allow unrealistic scheduling!
If your flying on fumes, that's your deal buddy, declare a pan or a mayday and get priority treatment. The fact that delays would exist all last week due to the airshow and airshow practice earlier on the week has been notamed/AIP'd to some extent for the last 6 months.
And finally, If I did do as you suggest and did my job according to rules laid out in 'my regs' you'd have far more missed approaches, sit at the holding point far longer waiting to roll and routings to gates that made my life easier not yours, but the fact that I do bend the rules and go the extra mile is because I get satisfaction and pride from going the 'extra mile' and trying to offer a good service. Whichever way you look at it your initial post quoted above is derogatory to ATC and spoiling for a fight, so I'll see you on the playground in 5 minutes
By all means ask a serious question and offer constructive feedback, and admittedly your latter posts do, but your initial post winds me up buddy.
Have a great day
I'll be at the golf if you fancy a pint.
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Let me add some JP4 to all this.....
As a controller, I know we do our best to move the traffic in and out.
From a pilot's point of view. I might be pissed that the system has me holding for an hour at one in the morning, and, of course, I would blame the controllers!
In the particular case being discussed, I'm afraid the fault lies with the air traffic management provider, which, unfortunately, is us. The obvious solution, once demand exceeds airport capacity, is to initiate flow control, like everywhere else in the world. DXB arrival times are issued, meaning you absorb the delay at your departure airport. Quite simple really.
As a controller, I know we do our best to move the traffic in and out.
From a pilot's point of view. I might be pissed that the system has me holding for an hour at one in the morning, and, of course, I would blame the controllers!
In the particular case being discussed, I'm afraid the fault lies with the air traffic management provider, which, unfortunately, is us. The obvious solution, once demand exceeds airport capacity, is to initiate flow control, like everywhere else in the world. DXB arrival times are issued, meaning you absorb the delay at your departure airport. Quite simple really.
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Canoehead
On paper what you suggest is perfect and works very well around Europe, but would take a $hit load of work and international co operation not to mention complete ignorance of any political issues. I'm not sure how you can blame the ATC management at Dubai for this lack of slot system??
On paper what you suggest is perfect and works very well around Europe, but would take a $hit load of work and international co operation not to mention complete ignorance of any political issues. I'm not sure how you can blame the ATC management at Dubai for this lack of slot system??
Join Date: Dec 2006
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@canoehead
On paper Dubai can handle 29 arrivals per hour.
The problem is not that the 'A' crew can even do 31.
The problem is that the 'Z' crew can handle 3.1 with 3 unnecessary runway changes per hour in VRB3KT CAVOK conditions. Its consistency.
(I assume, that you are 'A' crew)
The problem is not that the 'A' crew can even do 31.
The problem is that the 'Z' crew can handle 3.1 with 3 unnecessary runway changes per hour in VRB3KT CAVOK conditions. Its consistency.
(I assume, that you are 'A' crew)
Join Date: Nov 2009
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I agree with most of what was said above.
The above is half the problem. There is NO consistency. One night duty you are running 10nm both sides...maybe 15 on one. It looks busy in the TMA but the in-trail spacing on finals is 4-5nm. On the other night duty, we have 15 in each stack, running 20nm both sides and about 6 in the TMA. Thats why we're frustrated. Can't some of the A team go to the Z team for a while...just to show them. I can't simply believe that the regs are that tight. Here's an idea. Most traffic on a night duty comes from the DESDI hold. Why not just run 10nm all night from there and 15 from BUBIN. It worked a dream the other night with much the same traffic as any other night. And don't do a runway change in the middle of it when the wind is calm.....
Believe me, DESDI is a serious chokepoint. Something IS going to happen there some night. Its inevitable. 
The problem is that the 'Z' crew can handle 3.1 with 3 unnecessary runway changes per hour in VRB3KT CAVOK conditions. Its consistency.
Believe me, DESDI is a serious chokepoint. Something IS going to happen there some night. Its inevitable.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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For what it is worth the vast majority of Rwy changes are initiated by pilots complaining about tailwinds on short finals.
We either go for a Rwy change or increase spacing on finals due landing tfc missing the 1st high speed exits (or in the case of many operators here slow speed exits
) and also increase the chance of go arounds.
If it is known that the winds will be changing later, a tactical change may be made head of time during a quieter period. There will never be a time when this can be acheived without somebody getting delayed though.
We either go for a Rwy change or increase spacing on finals due landing tfc missing the 1st high speed exits (or in the case of many operators here slow speed exits
) and also increase the chance of go arounds.If it is known that the winds will be changing later, a tactical change may be made head of time during a quieter period. There will never be a time when this can be acheived without somebody getting delayed though.
